Law of Seven, Hope and Faith

[anart]

As a coda, I would like to apologize about the 'off-topic' finale, and also about the fact that, as a result of 'immersing' myself in G's literature, the form my thoughts are taking, involuntarily I might add, are of an unusual 'shape', conforming somewhat to the 'shape' of G's thoughts in written form. Thank you Beelzebub.

You seem to be recognizing here that without giving more direct relationships to existing ideas, you risk coming across as a word salad version of wise-acreing and that's Anart's point.

Exactly. RflctnofU wholly missed my point, which tends to happen when one is identified with oneself and one's understanding. Kris - perhaps it's time to start to consider that your understanding is limited - that you over-estimate yourself. Take that as a fact.

Perhaps, instead of attempting to teach others with word-salad like posts, your time might be better spent truly grasping that you know nothing and thus being open to learning everything? From this perspective, there are no limits to learning and understanding.

Your current evidenced perspective is 'look what I know' - a very, very limiting perspective indeed, especially when what you know is limited. fwiw.

 

[RflctnOfU]

As a coda, I would like to apologize about the 'off-topic' finale, and also about the fact that, as a result of 'immersing' myself in G's literature, the form my thoughts are taking, involuntarily I might add, are of an unusual 'shape', conforming somewhat to the 'shape' of G's thoughts in written form. Thank you Beelzebub.

You seem to be recognizing here that without giving more direct relationships to existing ideas, you risk coming across as a word salad version of wise-acreing and that's Anart's point. Sometimes it can help to write in a detached well-sourced way like you were writing a research paper.

The problem with conveying 'truth' or any such thing in an easily swallowed, 'sweet' or 'titillating' form, is that it ROTS the teeth of the brain.

For what you are saying, the relevant existing ideas might include Jungian numerology, root vector geometry, and the head-heart-gut structure of the enneagram, chakras, sefirot and astrology.

3 and 7 are universal, and in thier essence, are everywhere, and very well 'might' include the above. The entire point of the text under consideration, which, according to my current understanding of said 'Laws', is an embodiment of the same, is NOT being considered. It was 'constructed' intentionally, with a view to 'demonstrate' said laws in thier relation AND dependence upon 'one another', the big picture, if you will. doremifasollasido. 3 cannot operate without 7 and 7 cannot function without 3.

One cannot understand an elephant by focusing attention on his 'skin' alone. Or a flea for that matter. Right now, only the 'skin' of the text is being scrutinized. Look 'inside' at it's 'guts'.

But that doesn't mean that the law of three would no longer be applicable inside the "smaller" creations that happen during the cycle that the law of seven exerts. Circles within circles :)

I never implied such a thing. 3 certainly DOES take part inside the "smaller" creations that occur (but doesn't 'enter'), but so does 7. 3 and 7 dance eternally, and that dance is the Living Cosmos. It is the dance that is of 'interest', not the "individuals" DOing the dance.

Happy Hunting

Kris

 

[anart]

The problem with conveying 'truth' or any such thing in an easily swallowed, 'sweet' or 'titillating' form, is that it ROTS the teeth of the brain.

The problem is that you are conveying nothing with your current approach. You are posting for yourself and no one else.

I'd also like to point out that your prior posts, before your hiatus from this forum, did not evidence such issues, which is why this current tendency of yours is so noticeable and so disconcerting.

 

[RflctnOfU]

The problem with conveying 'truth' or any such thing in an easily swallowed, 'sweet' or 'titillating' form, is that it ROTS the teeth of the brain.

The problem is that you are conveying nothing with your current approach. You are posting for yourself and no one else.

I'd also like to point out that your prior posts, before your hiatus from this forum, did not evidence such issues, which is why this current tendency of yours is so noticeable and so disconcerting.

With a little contemplation, on what was written in my 'word-salad', a scale may be perceived.

Exactly. RflctnofU wholly missed my point ('wise-acreing')

Actually, I chose to 'address' this point of yours indirectly, which you seem to have missed.

Kris - perhaps it's time to start to consider that your understanding is limited - that you over-estimate yourself. Take that as a fact.

Wow.....wow

No where have I made claim that I have the same unlimited understanding as God/Creator/Cosmos/etc. Take that as a fact? That is a rather presumptuous statement anart, which, I've noticed over the years, seems to be a pattern with you. You 'presume' that I don't consider that my level of understanding is limited - and that I over-estimate myself. I certainly do actively consider how limited is my understanding. Understanding, by the way, is expressed in one's faculty of Analogy. Incidentally, the text which began this 'back-and-forth', is an analogy of the two mentioned laws, and a form of thier relation. In any case, back to the discussion at hand, my primary 'aim' is 'to-increase' my understanding, precisely because it is limited! Now, that being said, I have experienced the same 'hurdles', regarding 3 and 7, that Green_Manalishi is currently experiencing. My only intent was to assist in increasing his understanding. I was certainly not posting 'for myself and no one else.' If you, or any of the other forum members or moderators, wish me to stop posting, I will do so. I am, after all, quite good at 'Lurking'. My current 'style', if it can be called such, is, as was already stated, due to the 'muddling and befuddling' of Beelzebub. As far as the 'Work' is concerned, by following G's instructions, I am getting subjectivized results. 'Something' in me is 'a-working'. Besides all of this, by teaching, one's learning is increased, and, as we all 'know', one cannot ascend to a higher step on 'the way', until he places someone else on his own step. Also, 'focusing on me', being a professional musician, I have a somewhat more colorful grasp of 'vibrations' and 'octaves' than do non-musicians - speaking of 'vibrations', as an aside, an objective 'Do', has the following formula 2^n+2^(n-5)hz, which was discovered after I read an article (I've tried finding this again to no avail) stating that our sun vibrates at a very, very low octave of 'C', or 'Do'.

All that being said, I await judgement.

Kris

 

[anart]

With a little contemplation, on what was written in my 'word-salad', a scale may be perceived.

This is exactly what I meant when I said you were writing for yourself and no one else.

Actually, I chose to 'address' this point of yours indirectly, which you seem to have missed.

That was your choice, which directly displayed your lack of understanding of the fact that you appear to be so identified with yourself and what you perceive to be your level of knowledge, that you cannot See anything else. You are more interested in proving yourself knowledgeable than you are in actually sharing what you understand clearly - for anothers benefit, not your own. This may seem like a very obscure point, but it is evident, at least to my understanding.

Were you interested in actually sharing your understanding sincerely, for the benefit of others, you would have endeavored to be as clear, concise and transparent as humanly possible - perhaps not at first, but certainly after having it pointed out that you were doing the opposite of that. Such a willingness to consider that we don't See ourselves as we are is a core tenet of the Work you say you have been studying.

Wow.....wow

No where have I made claim that I have the same unlimited understanding as God/Creator/Cosmos/etc.

This is a twist on your part and not what I said. Your self-importance is showing.

Take that as a fact?

Nope - if you re-read what I wrote without the distorting lens of self-importance you might come closer to the mark.

That is a rather presumptuous statement anart, which, I've noticed over the years, seems to be a pattern with you. You 'presume' that I don't consider that my level of understanding is limited - and that I over-estimate myself.

More heady self-importance - and an insult of a moderator - and you've been deeply studying Gurdjieff during your time away? As Gurdjieff says, "but how will a man behave if you scratch him a little" - we now see how you have behaved.

Understanding, by the way, is expressed in one's faculty of Analogy.

Sez who? This is, by the way, more evidence that you are posting to 'prove your understanding' - for yourself and no one else.

Incidentally, the text which began this 'back-and-forth', is an analogy of the two mentioned laws, and a form of thier relation.

Yes, I'm quite aware of that.

In any case, back to the discussion at hand, my primary 'aim' is 'to-increase' my understanding, precisely because it is limited! Now, that being said, I have experienced the same 'hurdles', regarding 3 and 7, that Green_Manalishi is currently experiencing. My only intent was to assist in increasing his understanding.

By speaking obscurely, to please yourself - you might want to consider that your actions contradicted your intent. This isn't unusual in those who are dreaming.

I was certainly not posting 'for myself and no one else.'

See the above examples of exactly that.

If you, or any of the other forum members or moderators, wish me to stop posting, I will do so. I am, after all, quite good at 'Lurking'. My current 'style', if it can be called such, is, as was already stated, due to the 'muddling and befuddling' of Beelzebub.

That is unfortunate and is reminiscent of Gurdjieff's lament concerning the students of his that he found in NY when visiting - that they all had the look about them of those ready for the insane asylum (paraphrasing).

As far as the 'Work' is concerned, by following G's instructions, I am getting subjectivized results. 'Something' in me is 'a-working'.

Have you considered that you might be dreaming?

Besides all of this, by teaching, one's learning is increased, and, as we all 'know', one cannot ascend to a higher step on 'the way', until he places someone else on his own step.

More proof of exactly what I have explained above.

Also, 'focusing on me', being a professional musician, I have a somewhat more colorful grasp of 'vibrations' and 'octaves' than do non-musicians - speaking of 'vibrations', as an aside, an objective 'Do', has the following formula 2^n+2^(n-5)hz, which was discovered after I read an article (I've tried finding this again to no avail) stating that our sun vibrates at a very, very low octave of 'C', or 'Do'.

All that being said, I await judgement.

Kris

It's not about 'judgment' - however, it is about your current behavior reflecting your current state of being - and, with that consideration, I think it would be most beneficial for you at this time to limit your posting abilities on this forum. Perhaps that will help you understand that subjectivity is its own reward. In other words, when you are ready to sincerely contribute to this forum without using the forum as a means to self-aggrandize and deepen your dream you are a 'teacher', while not considering your supposed 'students' - then your return will be welcomed. I wish you the best in the mean time. Perhaps this little shock will help to 'adjust your direction', as you know if you've been studying Gurdjieff's octaves, as progression moves from the original position in the original direction (your desire to objectively learn):

"The next octave gives an even more marked deviation, the one following that a deviation that is more marked still, so that the line of octaves may at last turn completely round and proceed in a direction opposite to the original direction."

From the behavior evidenced in your most recent posts, it would be logical to conclude that you are currently moving in a direction opposite of what you initially intended (assuming your intentions were sincere). As you probably know, the effects he describes have much more to do with progression through life and learning than they have to do with literal musical performance, per se. fwiw.

 

[anart]

First, I would like to expose a question I have regarding the Law of Seven as described in Gnosis Vol. 1 (having in mind I only read the exoteric cycle, hard books to get by).
I couldn't really take the meaning from the book, but for one to reach a desired goal is it necessary to perform the full cycle, or after the first impulse, if a deviation doesn't occur one could reach the goal without the cycle, or are the two hypotheses possible.

Apologies for the late input on this, but I think the main point is the description of processes in 'mechanical man' - how everything mechanical man sets out to do falls under certain equally mechanical laws. There are impulses, reactions, and since we are machines in a world that is run by certain laws, these reactions can be mapped quite accurately, consistently and clearly - thus the Law of Seven. I would even hazard to guess that it is impossible for mechanical man to engage in any significant process at all (one entailing a 'desired goal') without deviations occurring. 'Deviations' as they are termed are part of the laws of operation of this mechanical world. Once one has ceased being mechanical, however - all that may change.

Secondly the main reason for this post. I have recently started to learn how to play guitar, and decided to use this learning as a phenomenon to see/test/observe/use what I have learn in this forum and all the knowledge around it.

Sounds like an interesting experiment.

So the first thing that came to my mind was the law of 7 that regulates all phenomenons in time and specially the deviations that take place from the desired goal. For me the deviations take place has de motivation caused by thinking that it's too hard, I'll never be able to play decently, it will take too long.

Internal deviations of motivation, drive, energy, momentum are, to my understanding, the most common, though 'external' deviations can occur as well.

After having being hit by the deviations i need the additional impulses to reach the goal. That's where hope and faith enter, i think, hope that by training and learning, even if the results are not always immediately visible, I'll be to able someday play decently.

Sounds reasonable, though you may find that 'faith and hope' are not what you think they are - and that it is quite difficult to muster such forces in adequate 'quantity' or strength to further your goal. Often, you'll find that internal impulses might not be quite strong enough to overcome the strongest deviations at certain points in the 'octave' - in those cases, external shocks may be necessary - be they what appear to be 'accidental' shocks or deliberate shocks by those who accompany on your journey.

Are these the only forces (Hope and Faith) that are able to compensate for the deviations, i don't remember if Boris Mouravieff gives examples from where these impulses should came from.

Actually, as I mentioned above, it is my understanding that external shocks can also supply the 'momentum' necessary to move through deviations and retain one's direction, that is if internal shocks (forces) are not adequate.

I think it's also important to remember that Working to become less mechanical (to awaken and forge a singular I) can be a great aid to compensate for the mechanical deviations that arise in processes in life - simply because one becomes more acutely aware of those processes and how one reacts to them and manifests them in one's own life. When one becomes aware of the 'intervals', one can act accordingly. Basically, once one is no longer purely mechanical, things shift a bit.

Of course, that is no small task by any stretch of the imagination - but with the help of a network to provide shocks and guidance, it is possible. That is my current understanding, at least, and I hope that makes some sort of sense and hasn't confused the issue further - and - again, apologies for the late reply, things have been rather hectic lately.

 

[Green_Manalishi]

I would even hazard to guess that it is impossible for mechanical man to engage in any significant process at all (one entailing a 'desired goal') without deviations occurring. 'Deviations' as they are termed are part of the laws of operation of this mechanical world.

Yes, quite true, if someone in this world could reach a desired goal in a straight line, he would probably be ready to be transported somewhere else in a big bright flash of light. :)

though you may find that 'faith and hope' are not what you think they are

Of course, i used those terms to describe a certain feeling that could be described in the following terms: if i preserve long enough with this i might get some where, so i just have to keep "banging my head against the wall", because i known that by doing that there is a great probability of success, even thought right now it seems very difficult.
Real faith and hope, as real Love are probably a very pure state of being so far way from us that we cannot begin to describe it.

External shocks, as you pointed out, seem to be very important, i agree. Something that would lack in total isolation from the world. A plus from the work in the 4th way, perhaps a detail that speeds up the process in "climbing the ladder".
Now that i think about it external shocks are probably equally important as the internal ones.

 

[RflctnOfU]

To all in this thread, and especially anart, I would like to sincerely apologize for my behavior. During the previous isp issues, I really got swept away in the 'deflections', as anart pointed out. I am ashamed of the messiah complex which grew out of desire to 'get the word out', and it was very difficult not being able to communicate with like minded individuals, which contributed to screwing up my inner state --quite a bit more than I had realized -- until I was given the much needed 'external shock' anart provided. Thank you for that anart - objectively the best, and subjectively the worst, thing that could have happened at that time. Hindsight being what it is, the 'scratch on the arm' wounded my self-importance deeply -- I really am ashamed of how arrogant I became, as a result of that . And the worst thing was, I couldn't see it!! That is, until the mirror reflected it back in full, blazing, agonizing glory in the form of the ban. So, once again, I apologize. And I shall take my quote to heart from here on out.

Kris

 

[Green_Manalishi]

Hi. This is a bit off topic, but it still involves music in general and the work.
I just wanted to leave here a thought that occurred to me. Learning songs by heart in any instrument, but especially in stringed instruments i believe (because there is the chord and the fret in which the notes are to be played added to the picking or strumming pattern that must be learned) could be a good way to exercise the frontal cortex, because there is no other way to learn songs without "hammering" them down in our memory. So maybe another reason to, for example, encourage children to learn a instrument, and everyone else to play one as well.