"Life Without Bread"

[pete02]

Also, I didn't see calcium in your list. I believe we calcium, vitamin D and magnesium work synergistically.

If you are having bone broths, or slow cooking meat on the bone, or eating fish - bones and all, then you are most likely getting enough calcium.
My understanding from past discussions is that we got way too much calcium on our previous diets and magnesium needs to be balanced against it for some time. Also most calcium supplements come in a for that is not readily absorbed/may cause calcium deposits in the body (the 'minerals' in unfiltered tap water do this too). If you do want to take calcium take it away from other supplements (especially magnesium) and fatty meals - as it blocks the absorption of magnesium and fat among other things.

I agree with this 100%. Taking added calcium in pill form or in dairy is actually detrimental to out bodies.

Okay I'm a little confused. I had started giving calcium some thought myself because I don't do bone broths or slow cook meat on the bone and haven't had fish for some time now due to so much fish being contaminated so I went out yesterday and picked up a calcium and magnesium citrate supplement.

It contains: Calcium (as citrate, hydroxyapatite) 750mg
Vitamin D (as cholecalciferol) 125iu
Vitamin K (as phylloquinone) 50mcg
Magnesium (as citrate, oxide) 500mg
Boron (as citrate, aspartate, glycinate) 3mg
Betaine hydrochloride 50mg (Recommended dose of four tablets a day with meals)

Now I'm wondering (because you say calcium shouldn't be taken with magnesium) should I go back to just my individual magnesium and vitamin D supplements and skip the calcium altogether or should I get a separate calcium supplement and just take it at a different time of day? I have been taking my magnesium twice a day with meals but only take the vitamin D once in the morning with breakfast. These new tablets I've started taking two with breakfast and two with dinner.

 

[3DStudent]

Hi Pete, Psyche has said that Magnesium is best taken between meals:

Then, magnesium has an alkalizing effect and if we are already struggling to have enough HCl for proper digestion, then it is best to take it away from meals as well. Even though some brands recommend to take it with meals, some people had reported having very bad reactions for taking Mg with their meals, they describe symptoms that are similar of inappropriate digestion. Perhaps it applies more to those who are shifting to a low carb diet. But I think it's best to preserve stomach acidity at meal times, specially on a low carb diet.

I don't know what to do about the calcium either. I'm taking 50 mg in the morning and night with my multivitamin. I eat sardines for dinner sometimes, but with Dr. Kruse's recommendation to not eat 4 hours before bed and nothing that produces insulin, I don't know if I'll continue the fish (protein apparently produces insulin.) I think I might get some meat with bones and do broth or a stew.

 

[Nienna]

There are a lot of articles on SOTT about Calcium. You may want to start with this one.

https://www.sott.net/articles/show/192977-The-Calcium-Myth

 

[Foxx]

Whew! I finally made it through this whole thread! :) (and used the dancing banana emoticon for the first time)

The SOTT articles convinced me almost a year and a half ago to go wheat free, though I was unaware until more recently (maybe going through this thread) that there were some additional gluten sources that I wasn't aware of. I'm not sure if I inadvertently consumed some and I definitely contacted some on my hand maybe 8 months ago, but I'm pretty sure that I've made it about 6 months without any gluten including hidden sources (but definitely not 100% sure). I don't have sufficient control over my environment currently to outright ban it, though I would like to. I was also unaware of similar proteins in other grains and was not grain free until around a year ago (grain free except buckwheat, though I haven't eaten that in a while either).

However I hadn't completed all the reading and was making some mistakes like not effectively isolating foods to determine my reactivity and initially eating way too much protein. I'm not specifically measuring, but trying to keep protein below 35g/meal. I finally read Life Without Bread, Primal Body Primal Mind, and Deep Nutrition and cut my protein intake way down about three weeks ago now and increased my fat. I'm not sure if I'm in ketosis yet and I've been having some digestive issues that suggest that my liver may not be functioning optimally (HCL and milk thistle are on their way). I've tried taking HCL (with stearates--not sure how much that effects it and have ordered one without) in attempting to determine if I have low stomach acidity (blood type A+, though I'm not sure there's any truth to the blood types theory) and haven't experienced any effects from doing so, up to taking 8 capsules (648mg each) at once. So it's possible I'm very low on stomach acidity, but I don't want to conduct further tests until I get the better stuff. I don't think my liver is as yet functioning optimally--I've tried some vitamin E (it's Solgar mixed tocopherols in safflower oil, but I'm sure it's soy derived--are others taking vitamin E anymore and, if so, what brands?) and vitamin C (though the vitamin C also has stearates--I've got some ascorbic acid powder with bioflavonoids coming), though I just tried the two together today so I'll see what the effects are. I've also tried ox bile (again with the stearates) and it didn't seem to have much effect (maybe 500mg at a meal?).

I've been supplementing with magnesium citrate powder (pure)--probably around 500-900mg/day. I saw that Psyche said it's alkalizing and to consume it away from meals (and I've been concerned in case my stomach acid is low, though no reflux for a little while), though SeekinTruth seemed to think that it was best metabolized when taken with fat and takes it with meals. I'd be interested in any follow up comments if others had them on that topic. Generally I've been taking the Mag powder before breakfast in the morning and before bed at night.

I've been eating mainly pastured pork and grass fed beef with lard, ghee, and beef fat. Occasionally I eat some liver (had kidney once, too) and broths, too. I think I might have had a reaction to a fried egg a couple of weeks ago and have been eating some hard boiled egg yolks (took a long break from them before reintroducing) recently. I think hard boiled egg yolks might be ok, but I want to get my liver functioning well and have a break from them and reintroduce (since I'm now out, this will be the beginning of that break). The pork I've been eating is pastured, but supplemented with grains (and I'm not sure which ones...); are other people eating pork supplemented with grains? At least in america, it seems pretty hard to find pork that hasn't been fed grains (I'd love to try some of that Mansalitsa bacon :) ). I've also recently introduced butter as an experiment. I certainly enjoy eating it (especially the texture--I usually just eat it solo, cold, in little slabs) and it's organic and pastured (unclear in specifying whether it's fed grains and in what quantities, but it's the highest quality butter the local coop appears to have) and I haven't noticed any negative effects from it, but as my system currently isn't optimal without a clear indication of why it's still on the suspect list.

I've also been, at times, eating smoked canned herring fish (I think it's herring) that have been harvested in Maine that are quite tasty and pretty cheap. Each can has 35g of protein, though. Do others think Maine is a reasonably safe source for fish?

I don't get much exercise currently (and way too much sitting), though I'm planning to change that fairly soon, and I've been wondering if that's the source of my digestive issues. I also smoke organic tobacco--about 3-5 cigs a day (though usually in a pipe)--and have noticed that this will calm my digestion at times when it's irritated (and occasionally make me feel nauseous).

I'm also pretty sure that I still have candida. I have eye floaters (though I've read these can also potentially be from lyme disease or benign), I sneeze occasionally when I smoke tobacco, and have dandruff and facial eczema. I'm hoping that once I get my digestion sorted out, hit ketosis, and keep up with the tobacco and EE that it'll sort itself out (if it really is still there). I've also got some boswellia coming and I read that that also has anti candida properties, so perhaps that'll be a good boost along with it's anti-inflammatory properties and gut support.

Does The Vegetarian Myth provide any notably important information that isn't already supplied by LWoB, PBPM, or Deep Nutrition? I have it and plan on reading it, I'm just not sure if there are still dietary issues that I don't understand without reading it or whether it'll be more for fun at this point with the rest of the reading already done.

So that's where I'm at! Definitely not where I want to be, but at least dramatically more knowledgeable than when I started. My energy levels are decent and my thinking is doing pretty well--I think both could be better.

Thanks to everyone for all your posts, research, and contributions!! And thanks for any reflections or suggestions to this post :)

 

[ScarletBegonias]

Thanks for the link, Nienna Eluch! I take 700mg of calcium carbonate daily with 500IU of Vitamin D, but just learned this is much more than I need. Now I'm thinking I may not need a calcium supplement after all, because I might be getting enough from my diet already.

There are some pretty alarming articles on SOTT of reports that link calcium supplementation with increased risks of heart attacks:

https://www.sott.net/articles/show/239864-The-Calcium-Supplement-Problem-As-Serious-As-A-Heart-Attack

Though the study made international headlines at the time, critics soon took issue with the fact that it involved calcium supplementation without co-administered vitamin D. However, in April of that same year, another meta-analysis published in the same journal showed that even with co-administered D elemental calcium increased the risk of heart attack by 24%, and in addition, the composite of heart attack and stroke by 15% -- in essence, putting those doubts to rest.

I also take 500mg of magnesium citrate daily with a meal, (the NOW brand bottle recommends they be taken with food), but I don't take it with the calcium supplement. It has been my understanding to take them apart from each other, but maybe quitting the calcium is the way to go?

 

[pete02]

Hi Pete, Psyche has said that Magnesium is best taken between meals:

Then, magnesium has an alkalizing effect and if we are already struggling to have enough HCl for proper digestion, then it is best to take it away from meals as well. Even though some brands recommend to take it with meals, some people had reported having very bad reactions for taking Mg with their meals, they describe symptoms that are similar of inappropriate digestion. Perhaps it applies more to those who are shifting to a low carb diet. But I think it's best to preserve stomach acidity at meal times, specially on a low carb diet.

I don't know what to do about the calcium either. I'm taking 50 mg in the morning and night with my multivitamin. I eat sardines for dinner sometimes, but with Dr. Kruse's recommendation to not eat 4 hours before bed and nothing that produces insulin, I don't know if I'll continue the fish (protein apparently produces insulin.) I think I might get some meat with bones and do broth or a stew.

Thanks 3D :) I've been taking Magnesium with meals for about a year now and have had no problems with my digestion so I must be an exception to those having enough HCI available for proper digestion. Due to that and the fact that my new calcium/magnesium citrate pills have added HCI to them I think maybe I'll continue to try them for a week or so and see if I have any adverse reactions. My multivitamin also has like 25mg of calcium but I only take one a day so this will offer quite a boost in my calcium intake. I don't suspect I'll be taking them for too long.

There are a lot of articles on SOTT about Calcium. You may want to start with this one.

https://www.sott.net/articles/show/192977-The-Calcium-Myth

Nienna thanks for the link. :) I've had only 25mg of calcium intake daily with my multivitamin since I started the paleo diet and someone had mentioned in the 'bruxism' thread that a lack of calcium could contribute to grinding of teeth which was what got me thinking about it. This is only my second day taking the new supplements and the bottle I purchased is only a months supply but if don't notice any change in the bruxism problem I'm having then the bottle will be cut for sure. In the same respect if I do notice a change in my digestion then ditto and the bottles gone. Thanks again you guys!

EDIT: After reading the article linked by Nienna it appears that if you don't consume a sufficient amount of fruits and vegetables with a high protein diet the body will leach more calcium from the bones than normal. So it is possible that I'm low on calcium being that I only have meats and fats for breakfast and some kind of steak or pork with a small portion of veggies for dinner. However after reading the link that Scarlet has provided above I find that the problem is not so much with calcium but with the supplement form of it. It appears it would be best for me to ditch the pills and up my intake of veggies or fruit. Thanks again to all for your contributions.

 

[mcb]

...Does The Vegetarian Myth provide any notably important information that isn't already supplied by LWoB, PBPM, or Deep Nutrition? I have it and plan on reading it, I'm just not sure if there are still dietary issues that I don't understand without reading it or whether it'll be more for fun at this point with the rest of the reading already done...

Yes, it offers a Big Picture view of things like none of the others. Lots of "fun."

 

[mocachapeau]

Any idea how much magnesium is in your dose? It's been my experience that the recommended dosage on the bottle is often way off. Also, I didn't see calcium in your list. I believe we calcium, vitamin D and magnesium work synergistically. I expect others to correct me if I'm wrong on this.

Great ferling when the belt needs a new hole, eh? That is, until you realize you have to buy new clothes. ;)

Gonzo

Sorry about the delay between posts, I'm having a hard time getting computer time around here.

The magnesium bottle says 30 drops contains 200mg elemental magnesium, so I guess I've been taking about 100mg. I've gotten the impression from others that I should be taking about 500mg. Is that right?

I haven't been doing bone broth, but I do slow cook beef on the bone once or twice a week, and I try to eat a can of sockeye salmon once a week because I read it was a good natural source of calcium. And the multivitamin/mineral I've been taking once a day contains 125mg of calcium.

I've been looking at the protein content of the meat I eat and it does seem that pork chops and bacon are really the way to go due to the large amount of fat.

As an aside, I'm finding this diet really amazing. And not just because of the weight I've lost, and how good I feel. I find that the process is like a reflection of fourth way learning, specifically the self-observation and development of one single "I".

As I've eliminated all the unhealthy foods, my body has actually begun to talk to me a bit. The usual odd aches or pains that I used to experience somewhat regularly have gone away, and now if I get one of them, particularly in my left knee or right shoulder, I know that I've eaten something I shouldn't have and I can identify what it is. The knee pain is a slight inflammation, and now I KNOW this! Before it was just a jumble of different signals from my body that I never really understood, or even tried to. Sometimes I'd get one on top of the other, maybe wake up with them, and I ended up attributing them to some action or movement I might have made the previous day. Now it's like I'm reducing the noise to better receive the signal.

As I practice self-observation, I try to eliminate the most obvious bad decisions or choices I make. As I do this, other wrong mental processes are more easily identified because they are more isolated. My mind isn't as preoccupied with a bunch of minor things, so the ones that have remained hidden become more apparent. Again, reducing the noise to better receive the signal. Although, I find the mental stuff much more challenging due to my predator's craftiness.

And finally, just sticking to the diet itself is a part of developing that individual "I". It's like an exercise in fourth way learning. The fact that I am actually sticking to it, even in difficult or tempting situations, is an indication that I am developing some will where my food consumption is concerned. That's what the single "I" is all about, isn't it? Will? This in turn seems to build my self-confidence a little - I can see that I CAN actually develop some will! It may be easier than the mental stuff, but who'd of thought five years ago that I would be able to eat plain pork chops while 15 people are all eating pizza around me? Not me!

 

[SeekinTruth]

I've been supplementing with magnesium citrate powder (pure)--probably around 500-900mg/day. I saw that Psyche said it's alkalizing and to consume it away from meals (and I've been concerned in case my stomach acid is low, though no reflux for a little while), though SeekinTruth seemed to think that it was best metabolized when taken with fat and takes it with meals. I'd be interested in any follow up comments if others had them on that topic. Generally I've been taking the Mag powder before breakfast in the morning and before bed at night.

Well, I'm not 100% sure, but I've read that very little magnesium will actually be assimilated and available/used by the body without the adequate presence of fat (just like calcium, actually). I guess if someone already has a problem with insufficient stomach acid, then it would be a good idea to take magnesium away from meals. I don't have that problem in any obvious way and have been taking magnesium citrate with meals (having also tried half hour to an hour before meals) and don't notice any difference/problems.

EDIT: After reading the article linked by Nienna it appears that if you don't consume a sufficient amount of fruits and vegetables with a high protein diet the body will leach more calcium from the bones than normal. So it is possible that I'm low on calcium being that I only have meats and fats for breakfast and some kind of steak or pork with a small portion of veggies for dinner. However after reading the link that Scarlet has provided above I find that the problem is not so much with calcium but with the supplement form of it. It appears it would be best for me to ditch the pills and up my intake of veggies or fruit. Thanks again to all for your contributions.

I don't think this is correct. There was another article on SOTT with a title something like "Will a high protein diet leach minerals out of your bones? Only if it's plant based protein." And I've read some other material saying the same. So I would definitely not jump to the conclusion to eat more fruits and vegetables. I think that bone broth is the best solution to all the mineral needs and it will have fat and more fat can be added to it.

Also remember that without vitamin K2, calcium will not be properly utilized where it's needed and will instead tend to deposit in soft tissues / heart, etc. Very bad news, if that happens. K2 also has the ability to dissolve already deposited calcium buildup in those tissues and redistribute them where they actually belong. Good food sources of K2 include NATURAL / WILD FED butter, egg yolks, fish eggs (caviar/roe), etc. Butter made from grain fed cows does NOT have K2, and neither do eggs from improperly fed and raised chickens.

 

[webglider]

I started transitioning to the low carb diet maybe a month or so ago a little before I was diagnosed with cancer. I'm changing everything in my life right now, and trying to absorb as much information from this thread as possible. I get confused though because sometimes I'll read at the beginning and then skip to the end of theiddle of the thread as there are so many pages to go through. As new research gets added some of the protocols seem to change. The problem is that I can't remember where the information comes from - the beginning, the middle, or the end of this thread and I feel overwhelmed because I'm also trying to figure out a non-invastive protocol for cancer.

Here are some questions I have:

1. Is lettuce okay? I read at one point that it is and another that it isn't.
2. Are all the cruciferous veggies off limits? Cucumbers? Avocados? Celery?
3. Are dark berries like blue, black, and raspberries okay? Aside from the sugar, I'm concerned about yeast. If it's okay to eat the berries, how do I kill the yeast?
4. Are grapefruits okay if only a few sections are eaten/
5. What is used to measure ketosis? Where can I find whatever it is that I'd need?
6. I read in one place that green beans are okay and in another that they aren't.
7. Is it okay to eat a lot of onions? I'm using them to soak up the fat in the bacon.
8. I imagine that green drinks and carrot juice are not okay. I'd just like confirmation on that. I read that carrrots are okay, but I must be wrong as carrots have a lot of sugar.
All the cancer protocols I read recommend carrot juice - but a glass of carrot juice must have a ton of sugar.
9. I'm not eating bread, grains, or beans. I am eating burdock root, ginger and tumeric, garlic. Is daikon root okay?
10. Is kombuchu tea okay? Healing muchrooms such as maitake and others?

It's really fascinating to read this thread because of all the subtilites of the metabolism of the human body. I don't understand a lot of it, but the main idea is the incredible intelligence of the human body - of the processes of which go on totally without the participation of the conscious mind. Having been unconscious for so long, I trying to remedy this.

I really appreciate all the research that has been done here. I've never seen anything like this anywhere els.

 

[dugdeep]

Here are some questions I have:

1. Is lettuce okay? I read at one point that it is and another that it isn't.
2. Are all the cruciferous veggies off limits? Cucumbers? Avocados? Celery?
3. Are dark berries like blue, black, and raspberries okay? Aside from the sugar, I'm concerned about yeast. If it's okay to eat the berries, how do I kill the yeast?
4. Are grapefruits okay if only a few sections are eaten/
5. What is used to measure ketosis? Where can I find whatever it is that I'd need?
6. I read in one place that green beans are okay and in another that they aren't.
7. Is it okay to eat a lot of onions? I'm using them to soak up the fat in the bacon.
8. I imagine that green drinks and carrot juice are not okay. I'd just like confirmation on that. I read that carrrots are okay, but I must be wrong as carrots have a lot of sugar.
All the cancer protocols I read recommend carrot juice - but a glass of carrot juice must have a ton of sugar.
9. I'm not eating bread, grains, or beans. I am eating burdock root, ginger and tumeric, garlic. Is daikon root okay?
10. Is kombuchu tea okay? Healing muchrooms such as maitake and others?

Hi webglider. All of the foods you've asked about are OK, provided you're tolerant to them and you keep your total carbohydrate level low enough to keep you in ketosis. Some people may be avoiding some of the foods in your list because either they've found they're sensitive to them, or they find they're simply too high in carbs to keep them under their ideal limit. Carrot juice is really the only thing that jumps out at me as something that may be too sugary, although kombucha can be high in sugar depending on how long it's brewed (the longer it brews, the more the bacteria eat the existing sugar. If it's sweet AT ALL it means you're getting straight up sugar).

It requires some experimentation on your part, but learning is fun! :)

 

[pete02]

EDIT: After reading the article linked by Nienna it appears that if you don't consume a sufficient amount of fruits and vegetables with a high protein diet the body will leach more calcium from the bones than normal. So it is possible that I'm low on calcium being that I only have meats and fats for breakfast and some kind of steak or pork with a small portion of veggies for dinner. However after reading the link that Scarlet has provided above I find that the problem is not so much with calcium but with the supplement form of it. It appears it would be best for me to ditch the pills and up my intake of veggies or fruit. Thanks again to all for your contributions.

I don't think this is correct. There was another article on SOTT with a title something like "Will a high protein diet leach minerals out of your bones? Only if it's plant based protein." And I've read some other material saying the same. So I would definitely not jump to the conclusion to eat more fruits and vegetables. I think that bone broth is the best solution to all the mineral needs and it will have fat and more fat can be added to it.

Also remember that without vitamin K2, calcium will not be properly utilized where it's needed and will instead tend to deposit in soft tissues / heart, etc. Very bad news, if that happens. K2 also has the ability to dissolve already deposited calcium buildup in those tissues and redistribute them where they actually belong. Good food sources of K2 include NATURAL / WILD FED butter, egg yolks, fish eggs (caviar/roe), etc. Butter made from grain fed cows does NOT have K2, and neither do eggs from improperly fed and raised chickens.

Thanks ST :) I've decided to scrap the calcium experiment and just work with my dentist first on restructuring that crown the last guy put in or get it replaced. It's quite obvious I need to school myself in the calcium field before I up my intake and I can always just start making myself some bone broth. I'm going to go back to just my magnesium and vitamin D supplements and instead of adding calcium to the mix maybe I'll add some vitamin K instead. I appreciate the help.

 

[SeekinTruth]

You're welcome, Pete. Consider also that making a concentrated bone broth will provide ALL the minerals (with other important nutrients) that you need. Make sure to boil the broth at a low simmer for as long as you can (minimum 8 to 10 hours to get the most minerals) and add an acidic medium early in the cooking process, e.g. fresh squeezed lemon and/or apple cider vinegar, and don't add salt until just about finished cooking. You can also, of course, add healthy fat to the broth.

One other thing to note is that this diet is NOT a high protein diet. Protein consumption generally stays about the same while carbs are drastically reduced and replaced with healthy fats. I'm not sure what your numbers look like roughly, but my total calorie intake daily looks around 70% to 80% fat, about 20% to 25% protein and 15 grams of carbs at most (so maybe 1% or so). Just wanted to highlight that not only animal protein doesn't leach minerals from bones, but that we aren't eating a high protein diet.

 

[Laura]

Actually, I think that the article Nienna linked wasn't the best one. There are others that suggest that you can't get usable calcium from fruits and vegetables and that, in fact, eating too many of them when on the Paleo diet will actually inhibit your calcium though I can't remember the article right off-hand.


Found it: https://www.sott.net/articles/show/223987-Does-protein-leach-calcium-from-the-bones-Yes-but-only-if-it-is-plant-protein

Which says that eating plant proteins leaches calcium from the bones. So it doesn't make sense to think that you are going to get calcium from fruits and veggies.

There's a lot of articles on SOTT about it, so read them and then consider what your diet actually is. Also, consider what your paleolithic ancestors might have been eating and the fact that it was after the introduction of agriculture that human beings began having lots of bone problems.

 

[truth seeker]

I don't think this is correct. There was another article on SOTT with a title something like "Will a high protein diet leach minerals out of your bones? Only if it's plant based protein." And I've read some other material saying the same. So I would definitely not jump to the conclusion to eat more fruits and vegetables. I think that bone broth is the best solution to all the mineral needs and it will have fat and more fat can be added to it.

Is this the one: https://www.sott.net/articles/show/223987-Does-protein-leach-calcium-from-the-bones-Yes-but-only-if-it-is-plant-protein

Added: Apologies for the same link as above, I see we were posting around the same time.