"Life Without Bread"

[mcb]

I think that the most interesting ones will be inflammation and glycation markers: CRP and HbA1c. In hospitals, I never saw a HBA1c below 5.3, even in non-diabetic people. Heck, I don't even know my levels, I should probably check them... Dr. Davies from Wheat Belly reports levels of under 5 in some people who remove all grains from their diets...

Speaking of my day job, we sometimes work with HbA1c measures (HEDIS), dividing results into < 7, 7 - 9 (or 7-8 and 8-9), and > 9. Anything less than 7 is considered "good control," and above 9 is "poor control." The measurements are for diabetic patients, however. I don't have any data about healthy populations.

 

[Gertrudes]

What you all think? Wouldn't this be fun?

I also think that it is a very good idea, although I am not yet sure of how we will actually put it into practice. Should we open a thread that is data specific, where everyone puts his/her own results in a succint, specifically data oriented format? This way it could be much easier to collect information. We could keep the flexible trend of this thread, and leave the new one for "the numbers", so to say.

For anyone wanting to get the High-Sensitivity CRP test, I bought mine here: _http://www.testcountry.co.uk/High-Sensitivity-C-Reactive-Protein-Home-Test/dp/B005C5MO3E?ie=UTF8&id=High-Sensitivity%20C-Reactive%20Protein%20Home%20Test&field_product_site_launch_date_utc=-1y&field_availability=-1&field_browse=540227031&searchSize=12&searchNodeID=540227031&searchPage=1&refinementHistory=subjectbin%2Cprice%2Cbrandtextbin%2Ccolor_map%2Csize_name&searchRank=salesrank

for 44.5 Pounds (my keyboard lacks symbols). They also ship internationally: _http://www.testcountry.co.uk/info/shipping

So far, I have only found the HbA1c test for 150pounds, but I had to dig around for a while for the CRP one, so I may find a more affordable HbA1c test as well.

keeping in mind that standard cholesterol panels never test for LDL composition

It seems that even the tests that do measure LDL composition are not very accurate. Here is what Chris Kresser said about it at the Paleo Summit:

Sean: If someone is concerned about their heart disease risk, do they just get an LDL
particle size test?

Chris: This is a good question. And I have to say that I was wrong about this early on
as it was something that I did advocate. In fact I have a couple of videos that are still
online that I need to take off that talk about the LDL size particle test. Early on, they
seemed to be a promising way of determining your heart disease risk because the idea
was that if you had a lot of small, dense LDL particles as I just described, thatʼs a sign of
oxidative damage and youʼre at a higher risk for heart disease. And if you had large,
buoyant LDL, then you werenʼt at risk for heart disease.
But there are a couple of problems with this idea that became apparent after more
research. Number one is that there is no consensus about which methodology of testing
particle size is accurate. And the results from each method vary wildly. For example, the
best way to measure the large, buoyant LDL that everyone talks about as being
protective is to measure particle size using tube gel electrophoresis, which is one of the
methods. 80% of people who are measured with tube gel electrophoresis have pattern
A, which is the large, buoyant LDL. Whereas only 8% of people who get a VAP test,
which another competing technology, are in pattern A with the large, buoyant.
So, thatʼs a huge difference. Weʼre talking 80% having large, buoyant with one
methodology, and only 8% having large, buoyant with another. So, something is really
fishy there.
And then you have NMR and GDE, which are two other testing methodologies. And
theyʼre somewhere in between those two extremes. So, basically the results are all over
the map just depending on which technology or methodology you choose to use to
measure your particle size.
So, itʼs not to say that there might not someday be a way of determining particle size
and perhaps one of these methods is more accurate than another, and weʼll determine
what that is. But right now, it seems that we canʼt rely on these tests to accurately
classify particle size.

And since I'm on it, some more interesting things about cholesterol from the same interview:

The second problem is the reasoning behind the tests. I mentioned before that early on,
there were retrospective studies that observed that people with larger particle size had a
lower prevalence of heart disease. But, later when they did prospective studies - which
is where they take a population and compare them in the beginning and then follow
them over a period of time and see if they develop heart disease - studies like this that
looked at whether people with more small, dense LDL had more heart disease in the
future had pretty ambiguous results. Some of the studies did suggest a correlation. But
when the results were adjusted for traditional risk factors like smoking or the total-to-
HDL-cholesterol-ratio, the predictive power of small, dense LDL was mostly lost.

So we have basically three theories about this. One is that small, dense LDL are more
likely to oxidize and contribute to plaque formation. Number two is that small, dense
LDL are more likely to get stuck behind the vessel wall and contribute to plaque
formation. And number three is that small, dense LDL are more likely to pass through
the wall of the endothelium and oxidize.

And one or more of these theories may turn out to be true. But right now, they havenʼt
been proven conclusively. What has been shown and what we can say with relative
certainty is that small, dense LDL is a marker for poor LDL receptor function and for
LDL oxidation. And we know that both of those things are significant risk factors for
heart disease.

Sean: What actually is the best test if somebody is concerned about their cholesterol?

Chris: Well, it may be a surprise for most people. Statistically speaking, the totalcholesterol-
to-HDL-cholesterol-ratio is probably the most predictive of heart disease
risk. So thatʼs when you measure the total cholesterol and you put that in the numerator
and the HDL cholesterol in the denominator. So, that ratio should be under 3, and
preferably under 2 for optimal cardiovascular health.

 

[mcb]

...It seems that even the tests that do measure LDL composition are not very accurate...

This is also discussed in The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Living. It concludes,

...the ratio of your triglyceride to HDL-C (TG/HDL-C) is an effective surrogate for LDL particle size. Values of TG/HDL-C over 3.5 indicate that you probably have pattern B with a predominance of small LDL particles, and a ratio this high indicates there’s a good chance you may also have insulin resistance.

Deep Nutrition contains an extensive description of how LDL particles become damaged.

 

[Foxx]

I've also been having some sleep issues where my sleep doesn't feel optimal. I almost always have bags under my eyes and don't feel like I'm jumping out of bed in the mornings (though I usually feel pretty alert and mostly ready for the day and eat within a half hour of waking). I wake up occasionally at night, but not too often, usually only once but usually for maybe an hour or so (hard to tell) and usually I'm thinking about what I'm going to do the next day and occasionally trying to analyze the dream I had. I usually go to bed sometime between 10 and 11PM (though have recently been staying up later and too late on occasion due to some recent life situation changes), often have the light on and computer on before then, but sleep in a completely dark room.

I have some doubts that my magnesium level is optimal yet (though it appeared that I was hitting bowel tolerance for it for a little while a couple of weeks ago, but I was also wondering if that was from taking it away from food or another issue and I've been taking it with food lately to see if anything changes and haven't had any bowel tolerance issues recently), so I've been wondering if that's it. I usually get between 600-900mg a day, I estimate (usually taking powdered mag citrate). I also eat around 5-6PM, animal fat and protein.

I often smoke before bed, but have also tried not smoking before bed without any perceived changes. I've done EE before bed without any perceived changes in sleep quality. I haven't tried the cold thermogenesis stuff nor gotten into HIIT yet and have been wondering if those would have some effects. Any other ideas?

 

[Palinurus]

(my keyboard lacks symbols)

Hi Gertrudes,

This remark caught my eye. Although a minor problem, there is a solution for that.

Follow this path on your computer (provided you use Windows): Start > All programs > Accessories > System Tools > Character Map.

A pop up window should appear with all sorts of symbols, rare characters and such. This collection contains a Pound symbol ( £ ), see? You only have to click 'select' and 'copy' in order to be able to paste any symbol --or a string of such-- into a text you're writing/typing.

Notice that on top is a line which allows you to select several different fonts in order to not deviate too much from surrounding texts.

Hope this helps for possible future cases.

 

[Zadius Sky]

What you all think? Wouldn't this be fun?

Sounds like an excellent idea.

I personally never taken any blood tests in my life (i.e., HbA1c, etc.). My blood type (type O) was based on an assumption (by my mother) as there were no blood tests taken (not even at birth). It is becoming a good idea for me to start taking blood tests (whenever my money is okay up-front to take them - I have no health insurance) to see where I am.

Lately, I was not exactly on an all-meat diet as I keep eating bits of sugar/bread (along with all meat) in the past months, due to a number of factors (living with my parents who are strict to sugar/bread doesn't help me - no literature or arguments would convince them otherwise). That's no excuse. Dealing with my rigidity issues recently helped me to free up my perceptions on opening more doors and work more on building up on willpower to stick with the diet. I am re-reading this thread (and others) and writing notes as well re-reading the books.

Last Wednesday, I went to an ENT doctor (ear/nose/throat) to get my ear wax out of my right ear (which was caused by wearing a hearing aid and I had trouble hearing others) and the nurse took my blood pressure during my visit (which is 130 over 80, which is in a prehypertension category). Last time, I had my blood pressure taken was in 2006 (it was 125/80) due to my physical exhaustion. I will be going to the eye doctor soon to take an eye exam since last exam taken was in 2007. My current prescription (from that time) has now becoming a bit too strong for me. My current weight is at 197.

One of the major issues with me was my excessive drinking of Mountain Dew/Mello Yellow (habit) from high school until last year (14 years) with 3-5 liters per day. And, I was able to avoid them since last year without having any urges. Damage: tongue with bits of holes. Now, I cannot drink anything that has a citrus acid or juice (orange, pineapple, etc.) without experiencing the burning reactions. After reading this sad article recently: http://www.sott.net/articles/show/244450-Coca-Cola-habit-likely-led-to-death-say-docs , that would have happened to me if I continue to stay that route.

As for sleep, I usually go to sleep 6 or 7 in the evening (in a darkened room) since I have to go to work around 6am the next day and every morning, I woke up around 4am (on schedule without a use of alarm). Never woke up during the night. I sometimes skipped dinner if I come home late and went straight to bed.

Haven't tried any Leptin Reset recommendations yet.

 

[Gaby]

Speaking of my day job, we sometimes work with HbA1c measures (HEDIS), dividing results into < 7, 7 - 9 (or 7-8 and 8-9), and > 9. Anything less than 7 is considered "good control," and above 9 is "poor control." The measurements are for diabetic patients, however. I don't have any data about healthy populations.

Even though HbA1C is still not accurate like the problem of lab consensus into what is small LDL particle and what is the big fluffy anti-inflammatory one, HbA1c is still considered a good test to have an idea of glycation in one's body. It is explained briefly here: http://www.sott.net/articles/show/226400-Handy-dandy-carb-index

Main problem been that if one has anemia or dehydration the result might be skewed.

 

[Gaby]

There was something called MCHC which was low at 31.4 . I looked it up and it's something about anemia.

That might have skewed your HbA1c results, but I agree with others, at one point you might want to recheck these levels after doing some adjusting of supplementing and diet with the help of people's input.

 

[Oxajil]

Very interesting! It will kind of depend on the costs, whether I'll be doing the blood tests, but I will write them all down (what I'd like to have checked), talk to the doc about it, and see how much it would cost me.

Regarding statistics, it is possible for me to ask the statistics-wizard at my university, he knows a lot about statistics and has teached us about it too. Not sure if he would help when I won't be studying at that university anymore, but perhaps he would be willing, since he's a real nice and helpful guy. So whenever we would have the data, I'll try ask him anyhow, and see if he's willing to help.

 

[Oxajil]

Any other ideas?

Do you also allow 4-5 hours between dinner and bedtime?

 

[Mrs. Peel]

Main problem been that if one has anemia or dehydration the result might be skewed.

I was anemic as a kid, and had to take irion pills. I'm not sure what to do about it now that my bloodwork is low in iron. I've been eating way more red meat, eggs and chicken liver over the past year (looking at a list of foods that contain iron) and cooking with an iron skillet but I guess it's not enough. Would seem I'm probably not absorbing it.

Should I start taking iron pills??

I also look up "high levels of B12" and found this:

"High blood levels of vitamin B12 may be a sign of cirrhosis or hepatits infection. Further tests are necessary to diagnose the problem. Hepatitis is a condition that causes inflammation of your liver, impairing its ability to process nutrients. It is usually caused by a virus, but alcohol abuse and certain medications can also cause hepatitis. Cirrhosis is a serious condition characterized by continued inflammation and scarring of your liver tissue."

Obviously my liver isn't up to snuff yet, despite all the milk thistle, etc., I've been taking. Pumping much more fat into it at this point might not be such a good idea?

 

[Gaby]

I also think that it is a very good idea, although I am not yet sure of how we will actually put it into practice. Should we open a thread that is data specific, where everyone puts his/her own results in a succint, specifically data oriented format? This way it could be much easier to collect information. We could keep the flexible trend of this thread, and leave the new one for "the numbers", so to say.

Yeah, I thought about that, but then I noticed that people usually report here their symptoms, diet status and tests to ask for research guidance, feedback and brainstorm a bit.

We can create a questionnaire/guide which will help people give their testimonial in a more structured way. We can post the questionnaire/guide into a new thread, then people can respond it on the same thread or send it as a PM if they wish to remain anonymous. Then we can create a database/spreadsheet and patterns will emerge easier. We'll have to consult a statistic wizard if we see we have enough data for that purpose, otherwise telling the story as a testimonial kind of way would still be a compelling picture.

Looking back into all the health books we've read, I think it was the testimonials that really helped the concepts and advice to sink in. We'll have to give it more thought since the more data the merrier, but right now I'm thinking that things to include on the testimonial should include something like this:

Details of how the old lifestyle used to be like and health problems including if possible, medical tests and/or medication. It would be useful to know about medical problems in the family in general to illustrate genetic susceptibilities.
Dates when the diet and EE or cold adaptation or other were started. Problems encountered with such and how they resolved them. Some general details on how they followed the diet, EE and cold adaptation since it is going to variate according to each person. Some started with the elimination diet, others with the ketogenic diet, some with cryotherapy, others with cold showers, some with pipe breathing and the POTS and others with the full EE program and so forth.
Details of improvements and what made the most difference (EE, diet... or everything as a whole?)
Details on lab or any kind of monitoring done throughout this whole stage.

Depending on the testimonials and its data, we might need to collect later other details like age, gender, ethnicity, etc... to see if we can do some graphs. This can be done by e-mail to keep track of things and do it anonymously.

Any other ideas?

 

[Mrs. Peel]

Mrs. Peel, your CRP while you had a cold is probably not meaningful. If at all possible try to get it checked again. Your HbA1c being that high is not good (not sure how much it would be effected from the cold though). Do you still eat any grains or starches? Do you supplement with magnesium (and Vitamin C and other antioxidants)? Inflammation and glycation should NOT be ignored. Try to network and track down what's going on and then work on fixing it.

Yes, I'm still eating some brown rice and quinoa as I don't think I'm ready for steady meat/fat yet. Yes, I do take magnesium and Vit. C up to bowel tolerance. I'm not trying to ignore my inflammation. I've also taken boswelia, milk thistle, and a bunch of other anti-inflammatory supplements. I think leaky gut is at the bottom of it all, and some possible food allergies. As a kid, I had taken a lot of antibiotics, ate massive amounts of sugar, tons of NSAIDS for various injuries and surgeries, and was a weekend social drinker for decades. I've been inflamed and had candida my whole life. I couldn't even wear contact lenses for more than a couple hours cause my eyes don't produce enough tears, but back then I didn't know it was from chronic inflammation, so this has been with me for over 40 years.

Just trying to fix things a little at a time, I guess. :)

 

[Gaby]

Regarding statistics, it is possible for me to ask the statistics-wizard at my university, he knows a lot about statistics and has teached us about it too. Not sure if he would help when I won't be studying at that university anymore, but perhaps he would be willing, since he's a real nice and helpful guy. So whenever we would have the data, I'll try ask him anyhow, and see if he's willing to help.

Thank you! Ideally we'll have to brainstorm directly about it, but if it ain't possible then we can consult Universities, etc to see what is the best option, if any. I have access to this kind of research data and medical statistics software so we could do it this way in order to respect anonymity and other ethical issues.

 

[Gaby]

There was something called MCHC which was low at 31.4 . I looked it up and it's something about anemia.

I also high an abnormal high B12 reading at 1021 pg/mL and the standard of 180-914.

TSH (thyroid) was 3.68

As for sleep, I just can't seem to sleep through the night without waking up at least 2-4 times, no matter what I try.

Well, it also depends a lot on the lab so you'll have to keep some perspective. For instance:

http://www.drstandley.com/labvalues_hematology.shtml#MCHC

MCHC (Mean Corpuscular Hemoglobin Concentration) - Hemoglobin concentration (hemoglobin amount relative to the size of the cell) per red blood cell.

Normal Adult Range: 31 - 36 Hb/cell

You are in range according to that, more so if your Hb was not flagged. Thyroid tests are also famous for not detecting problems, but often, the diet is the way to go to resolve these issues. Gluten is definitely a no no in thyroid problems and rice has gluten-like proteins that has proved problematical for a lot of people. Wild rice is much safer as carby as it is.