"Life Without Bread"
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Gertrudes
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Thank you so much for these quotes Psyche. These are really important excerpts that fit nicely with information we've been gathering, and another book that makes me want to read it.
The post on how to cook one's food really struck me. When I was a child my mother used to regularly cook brain, liver, heart, kidneys, whole heads, and yes, we did eat the eyes :) I loved it. Then everything changed and suddenly we shouldn't eat fats, should eat less meat, more vegetable oils, more bread...you know the story. Although this is common knowledge here, I still can't help but be amazed by how we can become so easily convinced by not just a little lie, but by a huge, straight in the face blatant lie that tells us to do the exact opposite of what we'd been doing, and should keep doing.
Eventually I became vegetarian.....and wonder of wonders, "sugar-holic".
On a different note, I have lowered my protein intake to about 40 to 60g a day (slightly higher then the recommended dose for my body weight) and increased my carbs by 5/7g. I am now having between 10 to 12g a day. Still far from 20g, but I already noticed some greatly positive differences. My sleepiness and tiredness after eating seems to have disappeared, I had to cut down my magnesium dosage by two thirds because my bowels started to function by themselves, finally, no extra hep needed, I've not been bloated in days, my skin looks better, and my rashes have almost completely disappeared. The ones in my upper back and chest are actually gone. This was quite a dramatic change in only a few days.
One thing I do remember reading when searching around for a connection between ketosis and skin rashes, is that on several low carb forums members mentioned that the skin rashes would become worse when going deeper in ketosis, and not resolve, and only become better when upping the carbs. My experience seems to confirm this, even though I'm only at 10 to 12g a day.
Added: Forgot to add, besides L-glutamin, peppermint and aloe vera, I also included other "intestinal supplements": lactoferrin, turmeric and slippery elm to help my IBS. These are very likely also responsible for the amelioration of my symptoms. I have been taking them for almost 2 weeks, but the sudden dramatic change coincided with the inclusion of 5 to 7 extra grams of carbs just a few days ago.
The post on how to cook one's food really struck me. When I was a child my mother used to regularly cook brain, liver, heart, kidneys, whole heads, and yes, we did eat the eyes :) I loved it. Then everything changed and suddenly we shouldn't eat fats, should eat less meat, more vegetable oils, more bread...you know the story. Although this is common knowledge here, I still can't help but be amazed by how we can become so easily convinced by not just a little lie, but by a huge, straight in the face blatant lie that tells us to do the exact opposite of what we'd been doing, and should keep doing.
Eventually I became vegetarian.....and wonder of wonders, "sugar-holic".
On a different note, I have lowered my protein intake to about 40 to 60g a day (slightly higher then the recommended dose for my body weight) and increased my carbs by 5/7g. I am now having between 10 to 12g a day. Still far from 20g, but I already noticed some greatly positive differences. My sleepiness and tiredness after eating seems to have disappeared, I had to cut down my magnesium dosage by two thirds because my bowels started to function by themselves, finally, no extra hep needed, I've not been bloated in days, my skin looks better, and my rashes have almost completely disappeared. The ones in my upper back and chest are actually gone. This was quite a dramatic change in only a few days.
One thing I do remember reading when searching around for a connection between ketosis and skin rashes, is that on several low carb forums members mentioned that the skin rashes would become worse when going deeper in ketosis, and not resolve, and only become better when upping the carbs. My experience seems to confirm this, even though I'm only at 10 to 12g a day.
Added: Forgot to add, besides L-glutamin, peppermint and aloe vera, I also included other "intestinal supplements": lactoferrin, turmeric and slippery elm to help my IBS. These are very likely also responsible for the amelioration of my symptoms. I have been taking them for almost 2 weeks, but the sudden dramatic change coincided with the inclusion of 5 to 7 extra grams of carbs just a few days ago.
Courageous Inmate Sort
Jedi Master
This is exactly the same mechanism described in the video series "This is Your Brain on Porn" (http://www.sott.net/articles/show/231669-This-Is-Your-Brain-On-Porn). That is, we are easily addicted because we have never before been subjected to such large amount of, in this case, sugar and, in the other, sexual stimulation.
It makes me think of how this may be part of the 4D STS overlords plan to prey on the frailties of the human organism, leading us to a state of pain and misery (which provides them food). Of course that we, as good sleeping machines, do our part and indulge ourselves with our overstimulated reward centres.
Mod's note: Link activated since sott.net is an excellent site. ;D
One thing I've noticed about dropping the protein is that the meals are much less satiating. I've gone from being fine on 2 meals per day to needing 3, sometimes 4 small meals. I seem to spend more of my day hungry than previously, too.
I'm also quite dismayed at how small meals are now. I got myself a food scale to start measuring things instead of just guessing all the time. I was extremely frustrated last night when I measured out the meat from a cooked chicken wing I had leftover in the fridge and realize I couldn't eat a second one without overshooting the 25g protein limit by about 9 grams. I ate it anyway. (I'm using nutritiondata.com, and figured out the amount of protein in the meat I pulled from an admittedly large chicken wing was 17g).
I've been doing my best to try to compensate by loading up on as much fat as I can. In fact, I don't really see how I could eat more fat unless I was literally just eating lard with a spoon. My food is swimming in fat and I'm licking my plate clean of it. I also often eat two spoonfuls of coconut oil for "dessert". The fat helps in the short term, but the low protein meals just don't seem to have the same staying power.
This means I'm getting hungry before bed. If I eat dinner at 5 or 6, I'm hungry again by 9 and needing a snack. I haven't eaten snacks in a long time and I'm not really set up for them. What are people doing for snacks these days? Today I ate two fried eggs as a midafternoon snack
. I just finished a salad with olive and coconut oil and a squeeze of lemon and a handful of nuts.
All in all, I'm having a difficult time imagining our paleo ancestors eating this way. It seems highly restrictive, which I can't see anyone doing without being prompted to do so. Is anyone else struggling with this?
I'm also quite dismayed at how small meals are now. I got myself a food scale to start measuring things instead of just guessing all the time. I was extremely frustrated last night when I measured out the meat from a cooked chicken wing I had leftover in the fridge and realize I couldn't eat a second one without overshooting the 25g protein limit by about 9 grams. I ate it anyway. (I'm using nutritiondata.com, and figured out the amount of protein in the meat I pulled from an admittedly large chicken wing was 17g).
I've been doing my best to try to compensate by loading up on as much fat as I can. In fact, I don't really see how I could eat more fat unless I was literally just eating lard with a spoon. My food is swimming in fat and I'm licking my plate clean of it. I also often eat two spoonfuls of coconut oil for "dessert". The fat helps in the short term, but the low protein meals just don't seem to have the same staying power.
This means I'm getting hungry before bed. If I eat dinner at 5 or 6, I'm hungry again by 9 and needing a snack. I haven't eaten snacks in a long time and I'm not really set up for them. What are people doing for snacks these days? Today I ate two fried eggs as a midafternoon snack
. I just finished a salad with olive and coconut oil and a squeeze of lemon and a handful of nuts.All in all, I'm having a difficult time imagining our paleo ancestors eating this way. It seems highly restrictive, which I can't see anyone doing without being prompted to do so. Is anyone else struggling with this?
dugdeep said:
I haven't been measuring my protein intake, I've been eyeballing it but eating less protein overall. One whole chicken can sometimes last me a 3 meals at the most, has been rationed out to 5 meals. And the one thing I've been doing to compensate besides drenching my food in fat has been eating more kale with my food. I eat sweet potatoes and kale for 2 of my meals a day. About 1 small sweet potato for the 2 meals, and 2-3 stocks of kale per meal.
It has been a struggle, but I also started working out more intensely to help with my energy levels and to possibly offset all the protein intake.
dugdeep said:
One thing I've been gorging on a lot has been almond butter. Even though there is some carbohydrates in it, it's still majority fat at 18g/fat, 6g/carbs, 5g/protein per 30g serving. And I am eating WAY more than 30g a day. It hasn't thrown me off ketosis at all either. I was at 5mg/dL (trace amounts of ketones) for about a month, and since I've switched it up to the regime I just mentioned, I've been at 40mg/dL (moderate) for the last 4 days.
SethianSeth
Jedi
seek10 said:
Yeah, I got excited and thought I would drink a Vita Coco today after reading your post Jerry. But I got suspicious after reading the chapter in PBPM about carbs and sugar. Gedgaudas gives the strong impression that as close to zero sugar in the diet is best. That chapter was also the first time I have been alerted to potentially having candida as I definitely have suffered from many of the symptoms (sinus blockage, frequent sinus infections, frequent urination, white tongue...although that one has changed very much over my diet changes this year). Gedgaudas essentially says that all sugar intake is a compromise and actively contributes to deterioration and death. So, my eyes have been peeled open about glycation! And one 17 fl oz bottle of Vita Coco has 22g sugar.
To be honest, though, I am still a little confused about how much we should be restricting the sugar. If one bottle of Vita Coco can also be a great daily source of electrolytes, potassium, and vitamin C would it be an appropriate treat for any of the former carbaholics out there (especially as in Jerry's or my case where carb load is often otherwise zero or close to it)? Or should we be just sticking to the coconut oil for dessert? Was it one teaspoon dissolved in our bloodstream each day is all our blood cells need of glucose? Again, if so, eyes wide open. I've got work to do!
For me, it will certainly take a bit of time to cut sugar out completely (3 out of 6 of my last days, I ate a tiny taste of fruit or some sweet potato, etc). However, now that I am in ketosis (or so I think, I still need to get the urine test) I am so amazed at the way my body is using energy. After about 2 days, I was able to finally kick that coffee COMPLETELY (this one has been an ongoing battle for years now!), and my energy has steadily increased daily. I also am finding the need to eat very very infrequently. I never eat much to begin with, but many times I am cooking my meals at portions I would need before I started restricting carbs heavily and I find so much extra on my plate. Last night, I cooked up some green beans and squash in ghee with some chopped beef chuck with melted garlic butter (from an amazing local farm) on it and I ate about 4 bites of meat and 4 bites of veggies and actually felt full - until the next day around noon!
So, I get that sugar is the enemy. But does anyone have any insight about what lower and upper levels of sugar intake should be as an average?
Turgon said:
Me too on the almond butter. I make a small meal or snack out of the following mix (very tasty):
almond butter
bacon chips
ghee
crumbled nuts (soaked and dried)
Ketones are running from moderate to off-scale (very large). Digestion/elimination seems better than ever. I've cut back the meat protein as well over the past week and a half. Many main meals have been made from slow cooking fatty meat cuts (such as pork roasts, beef short ribs, chuck cuts, etc) in bone stock with added beef tallow. A large pot of it lasts a long time.
Also suffering a bit from a strangely "pulled" muscle in my back about shoulder blade level. I've been adding increasing amounts of salt, potassium, Mg, carnitine. Plenty of energy and meal volume is decreasing.
Turgon said:
Until people actually measure, preferably with a scale, I don't think you can really get what 25g of protein actually looks like. If you're talking about a 2.5kg fat chicken like I think you're talking about, those should be lasting 10 meals, not including using the bones for broth (although, considering broth is 6g of protein per cup, I haven't been touching it). 2 meals out of each breast, 1 meal per thigh, 1 meal per drumstick and one per wing (although you could overshoot and have both wings at one meal like I did).
[quote author=T]
And the one thing I've been doing to compensate besides drenching my food in fat has been eating more kale with my food. I eat sweet potatoes and kale for 2 of my meals a day. About 1 small sweet potato for the 2 meals, and 2-3 stocks of kale per meal.
[/quote]
Yeah, I've upped the veggies somewhat, too. I guess the fiber adds some feeling of fulness there. The fact is, both Gedgaudas and Phinney & Volek talk about eating a lot of veggies. Maybe in order to actually make 25g of protein work, short of eating straight fat, you need to up the veggies. Even Taubes talks about loading up on veggies, if I recall correctly. Obviously we have to keep it below the carb tollerance level of course.
[quote author=T]
One thing I've been gorging on a lot has been almond butter. Even though there is some carbohydrates in it, it's still majority fat at 18g/fat, 6g/carbs, 5g/protein per 30g serving. And I am eating WAY more than 30g a day. It hasn't thrown me off ketosis at all either. I was at 5mg/dL (trace amounts of ketones) for about a month, and since I've switched it up to the regime I just mentioned, I've been at 40mg/dL (moderate) for the last 4 days.
[/quote]
I guess I could try that, although I've been avoiding nuts in general due to anti-nutrients. But the fact that it has 5g of protein means that those 5g have to come off your total for the day, meaning less meat or eggs at your meals. It might make sense to do that, though, since the fat content is so high.
But like I say, until people actually measure it, I don't think anyone realizes how little meat we're talking about here. This is a pretty radical shift. I hope this doesn't come across as whining. I really do want to make this work, I'm just having a difficult time of it. I'm finding this much more difficult than cutting carbs was.
I just finished drinking a 1/4 cup of olive oil because I'm famished and didn't know what else to do. I'm going to bed before I go back for another round.
Psyche said:
Since most people won't be having blood tests to control potassium levels, I'll say that the safest way is to follow this dose like Dr. Schwartz says (99mg of K, 1 or 2 tablets with each meal) and in order to avoid hyperkalemia (high potassium levels in the blood which can be dangerous), stick to it for a week if you are having cramps and as it get relieved, bring the dose down to label instructions.
If a person had low K levels (which was usually within the lower normal range or slightly lower), we would leave 2 tablets 3 times a day but bringing the dose down progressively. After a week potassium levels will be restored to a higher normal range and the treatment discontinued or brought down to a minimum.
Gertrudes said:
I'm glad to hear the good news! And now that you have more food options like the ones you used to have as a kid, it should be even easier and perhaps more economic to have more food varieties that are very healthy. :)
I don't see no reason to go into extremes and do 0 carbs if one tolerates some veggies perfectly well. With 20grams one is a fat burner. According to "The Art of Low Carb Eating", some people can up their intake to by 5 grams of carbs at a time to test the minimum carbs they can eat while still retaining ketosis. Some can even eat 50 grams of carbs per day while still retaining ketosis.
I find that I'm satiated enough when having plenty of fat, moderate protein and some green beans or mushrooms as a means to eat more fat like butter. My total amount of carbs doesn't go beyond 25 grams even if I wanted to, because it just doesn't fit in my stomach. I'm just satiated. My protein is between 40 and 50 which is actually my range and the days I have more, I feel like I had too much and need HCl to help out with the digestion. And my intake of fats should be between 50 and 70% of my energy intake.
I only have to be careful with the spices. I was very sensitive to them before, but then with this diet everything seemed okay and I started to have them every single day. Now I'm extra sensitive to spices again after having them every day for over a month. I'm increasing my intake of fish oils and taking other supplements to heal my gut, but I suspect I will always have to moderate spices.
Psyche said:
In a pinch I have heated up a bit of cold-pressed coconut oil and ingested it 'straight up' :) or have taken it with a bit of other food like a bit of buckwheat bread or some cashews and that has taken away the famished feeling.
I do not feel nauseated or anything taking in fat especially if I ingest it slowly, and with coconut oil I "chew" the liquid a bit before swallowing and it goes down nicely, and I feel satiated.
I am on the go now that my work season is in full swing (I teach and train in other localities) and not always in my home so I need these quick and easy ways to get good fat in me.
Good idea about the butter snacks, as I have found that is even easier as butter is basically ready-to-eat.
dugdeep said:
I don't think you should lower your protein until you have healed your gut. In fact, I think that protein reduction should sorta come naturally: if your gut is healed, your body gets the nutrients it needs, it turns off the hunger switch. So you know that your gut is healed when you naturally eat less.
G
Gertrudes
Guest
dugdeep said:
Dugdeep, I am surely eating more protein then the recommended for my body weight and, at the moment, there is no way I can lower it more then I have, otherwise I'll starve. I have lowered it significantly and had very positive results. However, I have reached my lower limit, anything below it, and I'll spend the day thinking of food.
So I think that if you're that hungry, you should eat more of it. As Laura said, gut healing comes first.
Also, I do consider that even though there is a guideline, we have to account for individual differences, in other words, we should probably use the guidelines but with margin for flexibility. For example, according to BMI charts, I should be weighting 13kg more. There is no way whatsoever I could ever reach that. Maybe if I stay home the whole day and eat mcdonalds and candy bars non stop, I may be able to make it. But throughout all my life I have never weighted more then about 4kg then what I am weighting now. And that was when I was eating a lot, and all of it in junk food. Maybe I have less bone density, I don't know, but it has been noted since I was a child even though my figure looked normal.
Edit: added words for clarity.
