Lost Christianity - Jacob Needleman


FOTCM Member
Mac said:
Needleman knows he is on to something very deep and profound. Yet he seems to try to make it fit in the Christian box rather accepting it as something far greater than any religion. Something way beyond ideas or words.


Very well said.

Thomas Alan

The Living Force
I don't know that I have ever found myself reading a book more slowly. I found that the reason I keep going back to read passages again is I see where he is pointing and I want to find the words that evoked that seeing.

He seems to be pointing to a place that is not a place. It is nothing yet everything. The cares and turmoil of this density don't exist there. It can't be stained or sullied. The murderous robots of this density can't touch it. They have no power there. They can steal our money, ruin our health, destroy our bodies. But this no-place, no-time is far beyond their reach.

Perhaps part of the magic he mentions are words. Sometimes when I go back to look for the evocative words I find them, sometimes not.

Are words magical incantations? I've started to look at the words, expressions, metaphors I use each day mostly mechanically. Could I use different expressions to evoke different responses from the Universe? Are the words I use keeping me in reality bubble? And maybe bubble is the right word here. The prison we see ourselves in perhaps has no more reality than a soap bubble.

Thanks so much, Laura for sharing this book with us.


Approaching Infinity

FOTCM Member
Leo40 said:
For some reason, only known to Mr. Needleman, he refuses to address this point.

I don't think it's so much that he "refuses to address the point." It just could be he wasn't aware of the fact, which is understandable, given the esoteric nature of that information.

The excerpts from Father Sylvan give me the impression that Father Sylvan may
also not have disclosed all his discoveries or Mr. Needleman was selective in what he
thought his readers could take in.

As someone else mentioned in relation to the book (I think it was Patterson's comment on Amis' reference to Sylvan in one of his books), I think it's very possible that Sylvan (sly man?) was a fictional creation of Needleman's, like Castaneda's don Juan. In his lecture on his latest book What is God?, Needleman mentions that he was a novelist before doing non-fiction, and he usually includes some fictionalized elements in his books in order to get his point across in an engaging way.

As for the reference, there's this to keep in mind from Sylvan's journal:

Certainly, there are different levels of being that distinguish one man from another. But how to express this in a way that calls all men? . . . there are men with souls and there are men without souls.

It reads to me that both Needleman and "Sylvan" (if he was a real guy) have a "catholic" view, that while some people do not have souls, it's possible for anyone to develop one. That's where they miss the boat, IMO. They don't seem to consider that some cannot even develop a soul, i.e. they lack the "seed" completely.


The Living Force
FOTCM Member
I just finished reading this book this week. One of the things I had trouble with was understanding what was being said. I had a hard time following him. I think some of the things being said just had a lot of heady concepts that I found difficult to connect in my mind. I found myself reading a lot of sentences over. Definitely one of the books worth a second read for me.

And I had very little trouble with ISOTM, which I thought would be really complex. The only thing there that was confusing was the Ray of Creation do, re, mi stuff and all of the hydrogen numbers.

I haven't read this thread yet though and decided to put these initial thoughts down. Maybe I'll understand a little more once I go through the thread.


The Force is Strong With This One
Ah,i have forget it, :rolleyes: what i would say,for a few months i had ordered the book in german under amazon.de (under alternative offerer) for only one cent (ok,with 3 Euro postage) and this could be of interest for the german speaker here which have trouble with english books.The german title is different from the english original title,the german title is: Die Sanfte Revolution des Glaubens – Die Wiederentdeckung der spirituellen Praxis im Christentum. ( The Gentle Revolution Of The Belief - The Rediscovery Of The Spiritual Practice In The Christianity ) So or so,the book is very good and for a low price like the german translation - really a must have! (Yeah,i know here are some people too with chronically money problems.)


The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Thanks so much for letting us know about this book Laura. The clear and precise language reached a part of me that Gurdjieff. Ouspensky, or Castaneda could not. Or perhaps, reading Lost Christianity was the final addition required to understand the truths that Gurdjieff. Ouspensky, and Castaneda were trying to convey.
In any case. it is an exciting read. Like others in this thread, I needed to reread it to fully comprehend what JN is saying. But I enjoyed it even more the second time. A real spiritual thriller.

Don Genaro

Jedi Council Member
Has anybody read both the 1990 and the 2009 version? I can't get the more recent version sent to Spain at a decent price from amazon.co.uk and I ordered it back in December from amazon.com but it never arrived! I can get the 1990 version quite easily from the UK though...


The Living Force
I read this book long before I discovered Laura and the C's. It coincided with a major "left turn" in my journey. I am just now re-reading it. (and much enjoying it)

As repugnant and destructive as the concept of original sin can be, what if all that means is the fall from 3D STO to 3D STS?
Or the unconscious dysfunction of the lower centers which must be confronted in order to evolve?

I think a lot of things are dependent on how we interpret them and define them. I have had a lot of "arguments" with my wife about religion and spirituality only to discover we were actually on the same wavelength. If she spoke in standard Christian jargon I tended to feel angry and frustrated until we delved deeper into the meaning and understanding behind the words and catch phrases. Now I know how to translate and interpret better!

For example, what IS salvation? When I hear this mentioned by most Christians I assume it to mean the standard interpretation and I think to myself "You know not of what you speak."
No, salvation is not eternally hoisting a brewski with Jesus in Valhalla while munching on Buffalo wings and tossing the bones over one shoulder being careful not to pelt Odin while a chorus of thousands are repeatedly belting out "Nearer, my God, to thee" as St. Peter does his best Captain Nemo impression on a massive cathedral pipe organ.

From another point of view, it could mean the development of the soul; the learning of the 3D lessons and graduation to 4D STO (with the "thousand year" window to get it right.)

The "salvation which can come only through Christ" is not believing in the dead-man-on-a-stick along with the other dogmas of religion, but in working on the self and making manifest that higher self within; surrendering to the higher centers and letting go of the lure of 3D STS which forever tempt the lower aspects.

So, salvation could be a meaningful term but due to the humongous religious baggage this term carries, it perpetuates a false understanding.

I think this applies to a lot Mouravieff said too, even though my impression is that he swallowed most of the standard interpretations.

Anyway, I guess I am saying it takes certain mental acrobatics to re-frame and read between the lines. I can't read Needleman's mind to know exactly where he is coming from, but I really appreciate his attempt to take the questioning to a deeper level. A level where most rank and file Christians stop and are satisfied with the pat answers and "canned" literal interpretations.

This just made me wonder: who is the "He" that will come to teach in 4D STO - if there really was no Jesus?
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