Marius the giraffe killed, butchered and fed to lions as children watch

[ytain]

This whole thing about young kids witnessing the butchering of the giraffe's body made me nauseous. It is completely psychopathic.

From what I remember growing as a kid, I and other kids around my age weren't exposed to the slaughtering of cows/pigs/hens for food (half my childhood was spent at my grandparents' place, in a rural village where every household had a cow, pigs, chicken coop, and some had a horse).

Only later when I was 15-16 years or older I saw the process of slaughtering the pigs, hens or a cow and it included a ritual to give respects to the life's animal for giving food in return. It made it less traumatic that way.

Ytain

 

[mkrnhr]

Hello Freya,
Have you read the entire thread? For emotional thinking without discernment is as blind as dry intellectual thinking with no emotions at all. If you read further, you'll see how a balanced approach can lead to more fruitful outcomes in understanding. Otherwise, on is trapped in a black and white worldview from which nothing can grow. So since you've read Gurdjieff, remember the law of three. Good reading.

 

[Lan8r]

Posted by: mkrnhr

Have you read the entire thread? For emotional thinking without discernment is as blind as dry intellectual thinking with no emotions at all.

Actually, at the time of my post I had not. But, I have since. And what you say, as applicable as it is to my own post, was my point (or so I thought). At least the 'intellectual thinking with no emotions at all part'. Cuz, you ain't going nowhere without the horse! I may be clinging to my 'horse' here personally, or maybe I am clinging to 'emotions' in general, because they seemed to be completely lacking in that video and in the circumstances that allowed this unnecessary slaughter. And, made it a public spectacle using the excuse of 'education'.

I capitalized on Miss.K's comment on Gurdjieff. I apologize for that. It was inconsiderate. After further reading and understanding of where Miss.K was coming from, I can only say that I am sorry for that.

I will not apologize to Bengt Holst, however, because that video disturbs me. His attitude disturbs me. And yes, the media portrayal disturbs me as well, but that is how they roll.

This was, in my opinion, an unnecessary killing. The fact that the giraffe was offered to feed lions is irrelevant. The fact that anytime an animal 'dies' in any zoo an autopsy is performed is also irrelevant. And all the rabbits, etc, that he shot to regulate populations, also irrelevant. 'It is just like a vaccination', really? There were other options available and an enormous public outcry (albiet fueled by 'emotion'), yet this is the choice that was made. It sets a precedent and it does not speak well of the Human Caretakers of the animals whose planet we share.

I should probably now apologize that my 'apology for posting to emotionally' post got a little too emotional, but the implications are vast.

 

[Arwenn]

And to play the 'education card', really gets my goat. Anatomy and physiology are important subjects, but 'True Knowledge', the basic human capacity for empathy, understanding and compassion for all life should be the foundation and the impetus. Regardless of any particular animal's 'station' (ie wild vs domesticated), or even any Human's for that matter, as we use them (our own species even) in name of science as well.

This whole situation of killing a giraffe in public, in front of children to boot, is just sick. I've never liked zoos, or circuses. My parents took me on safari when I was little, & no zoo is ever going to compare to that. And the bulls*it excuse of saying it's in the name of education is even more sick. Especially seeing as that vey system is designed to dumb the children down; the only education they'd be getting is in cruelty, horror and (yet more) violence.

 

[Corvus]

I am not so sure about contract thing, maybe in a spiritual way and soul growth but then would not call it a contract with humans and animals are not eaten only by humans in that sense, it is more contract with universe and learning lessons, humans and others are catalysts in that sense. In that sense you could say we also have contract with 4D STS to be food, so it is a bit subjective thinking.

When it comes to physical contract with those animals in zoos and maybe farm animals, they would not call it a contract because contract is usually two sides agreeing on something with their free will and it is not really a contract if lying wolf and sheep made a deal and because who is going to stop stronger side with no-conscience using force, and animals from what I know are not really asked or humans know to ask them when puting them in zoos, not mentioning they would not agree like you would not agree being dissected, even if it is for your spiritual growth. Being fed and cared is not also a sign of agreeing to "contract" - think many wild animals would like more to be in nature and free then well fed and cared from simple reason because it is their nature. Same thing with prisoners and human slaves, would they like to be free or in prison, most would like to be free. And when it comes to farm animals they do not have choice as we have no choice in comparison to 4D STS on this level.

Do not think animals would be pleased knowing after all life being cared for and nurtured that their are going to cooking pots, maybe they would feel more like being betrayed. It is all natural way of life in STS universe, and we can not live without meat and animals like 4D STS can not live without us, but people see them as "evil" because they do what is in their nature forgeting what they do to others below them that see them in same way. Here in my place people kill pigs by cuting their throats and you can hear pigs screaming in agony and fear for miles. But as said we need meat and this is the nature of things here and in other places.

 

[Aithin Tusa Fein]

I am not so sure about contract thing, maybe in a spiritual way and soul growth but then would not call it a contract with humans and animals are not eaten only by humans in that sense, it is more contract with universe and learning lessons, humans and others are catalysts in that sense. In that sense you could say we also have contract with 4D STS to be food, so it is a bit subjective thinking.

When it comes to physical contract with those animals in zoos and maybe farm animals, they would not call it a contract because contract is usually two sides agreeing on something with their free will and it is not really a contract if lying wolf and sheep made a deal and because who is going to stop stronger side with no-conscience using force, and animals from what I know are not really asked or humans know to ask them when puting them in zoos, not mentioning they would not agree like you would not agree being dissected, even if it is for your spiritual growth. Being fed and cared is not also a sign of agreeing to "contract" - think many wild animals would like more to be in nature and free then well fed and cared from simple reason because it is their nature. Same thing with prisoners and human slaves, would they like to be free or in prison, most would like to be free. And when it comes to farm animals they do not have choice as we have no choice in comparison to 4D STS on this level.

Do not think animals would be pleased knowing after all life being cared for and nurtured that their are going to cooking pots, maybe they would feel more like being betrayed. It is all natural way of life in STS universe, and we can not live without meat and animals like 4D STS can not live without us, but people see them as "evil" because they do what is in their nature forgeting what they do to others below them that see them in same way. Here in my place people kill pigs by cuting their throats and you can hear pigs screaming in agony and fear for miles. But as said we need meat and this is the nature of things here and in other places.

However, there does seem to be a recognized 'contract' between humans and those in captivity, whether it be animals, "prisoners and human slaves," or whatever. This 'contract' seems to involve a duty of care on the part of those responsible for those in captivity. This idea of a 'contract' is subjective, but so is the nature of our reality. Apart from abstract concepts, like mathematics, etc., everything we experience is subjective to how that information is processed in our own heads. While there may not be an 'objective' contract, for the reasons you gave, you must at least consider what this does to the collective human society at large when those in captivity are treated this way.

Human beings live in societies. Considering the long history of the human species and the theory of evolution, one can surmise that societies were beneficial to human survival. Therefore, if true, then human beings would have adapted those behaviors that were favorable for living in societies, such as empathy, sympathy, and certain inhibitions.

Zoos have been around for a long time and the animals therein are there for human enjoyment. I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing, so long as the animals are cared for properly. Therefore we collectively assign to the zookeepers a certain duty of care for those animals. We also assign the same duty of care to jailers, hospitals, teachers and parents for those in their care. Consider what may happen to the structure of human societies when the instinctual duty of care becomes eroded. What kind of impact would eroding a duty of care for zoo animals in this way have on the duty of care for inmates for example? What is the relationship between the duty of care of one category and another?

 

[Bholanath]

I am very much moved by the volume, quality and depth of responses to this story and topic on the forum. True humanity shines through in all the various expressions and view points. Laura's contributions are exceptional, exhibiting deep maturity of experience and contemplation of the spiritual aspects of our relations to our non-human fellow beings, including the proper perspective toward living as non-vegetarians. The wider implications of ponerization and desensitization are also articulated so well. Thanks to Laura and to all the posters for a much needed covering of these difficult subjects, and the acknowledgment of all of our continually evolving natures.

The recent Taiji dolphin uproar has also recently brought up in the world's awareness the question of how much we understand and misunderstand about sentience. Our learning process is accelerating rapidly in this time.
I worked at an animal shelter for some years and had to euthanize. The first day on the job nearly destroyed me, but I determined to create conditions where each death would be as gentle, respectful, and painless as possible. The greatest lesson was absolutely seeing that each animal was a unique, aware, intelligent, and extremely sensitive individual (and LOVING!).

A video recently put up by a South African lady animal communicator demonstrates this in striking clarity: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvwHHMEDdT0
Two things that she stresses in her teaching and lectures are that animals are very willing participants in our efforts to communicate, and also that what they most desire is our recognition of who they are (as individual sentient beings).

I would, in addition, suggest that conscious people not paint "animal rights activists" with a broad brush, since for many of them, they are coming from a long and deep contemplation of the spiritual dimensions, of different degrees obviously, but are capable of achieving a balance of objectivity and intuitive and emotional understanding. Being an activist of that sort is not without many dangers, especially in our completely degenerated human society, full of gratuitous violence and deep hatred toward expanding consciousness.

 

[Laura]

Oh dear, don't get me going on shelters that have to euthanize critters because they are not wanted. It would break my heart. I was worthless for the whole day after reading that story about the elephant Perceval posted.

I'm a great believer in neutering and trying to find homes if possible. But mostly, it isn't possible and I realize that, too. The only answer I see to that, and all the related problems, is to keep hammering on about psychopathy until people wake-up and we can sort out the system from the foundations up.

But I also realize how unlikely that is to happen - more likely will be major catastrophes and suffering on a monumental scale. Well, all I can say if and when it happens is that human beings have brought it on themselves. They took a perfectly good planet populated with amazing creatures and just trashed it.

 

[Arwenn]

Oh dear, don't get me going on shelters that have to euthanize critters because they are not wanted. It would break my heart. I was worthless for the whole day after reading that story about the elephant Perceval posted.

I'm a great believer in neutering and trying to find homes if possible. But mostly, it isn't possible and I realize that, too. The only answer I see to that, and all the related problems, is to keep hammering on about psychopathy until people wake-up and we can sort out the system from the foundations up.

But I also realize how unlikely that is to happen - more likely will be major catastrophes and suffering on a monumental scale. Well, all I can say if and when it happens is that human beings have brought it on themselves. They took a perfectly good planet populated with amazing creatures and just trashed it.

We got our puppy (I still call her a puppy although she is 3 years old) from an animal welfare organization- the litter that she was a part of, was given to them for them to find homes. She is all the more dear to us because we rescued her, and she is the most loving gorgeous creature I ever have had the pleasure to interact with. If there was a 2D creature ready to become human, my little Rosie is it. She's just that short of talking to us.

 

[sid]

On the issue of letting the kids watch i am curious if anyone sees a difference between this, and feeding a mouse to a snake when kids are watching?

Hi davey72

That is a hypothetical situation eliciting a hypothetical answer which doesn't really help in the current discussion. It is almost like reducing a complex issue to simplistic situations such as "how does it compare to this..'' or "what would you do if this or that...". It doesn't work that way. How about you tell us if you see any difference in the above hypothetical situation?

OK. The reason i ask i suppose is because to me this isn't hypothetical. I have witnessed this in pet stores. They advertise the times so that anyone can come, and watch. I have even seen this advertised for the zoo as well. While i do agree with you, and Laura that we have a sort of contract, and it is pretty sad to waste a life for really , as i see it no reason; I do not see a difference with letting the kids watch this happen, and with them seeing a snake eat. That being said, there seems to be a different issue, and that is maybe desensitizing these kids to the killing of an animal when there are other options available.

Hi davey72

I just have one thing to add here regarding the above situation and that is selling snakes as pets. Who in their right might would want to have snakes as pets? They are better left alone in the wild and not to be meddled with.

And, I read what Laura has posted about treatment of animals during Roman times as well about the hanging incident by Perceval. It almost made me sick. I got the same feeling reading about it as I got from the "Dutroux affair" article on Sott sometime ago. Here's another completely sick act I learned from our friends who paid us a visit recently. In some area in outskirts of Wellington, New Zealand, they put stolen cats in a small bull-ring type of area with dangerous dogs and watch the dogs thrash the cats to almost nothing. Some people come and watch, pay for tickets etc. The whole thing is done in an underground fashion. Our friends' have had 3 cats missing in last 2 years and being locals, they knew on intuition where they might have ended. Totally sick human beings and I do hope an asteroid or two find its way to them.

 

[Drazen]

When I read about the elephant Mary it made me nauseous and angry. How deep humanity can fall. Here where I live there was an incident few years ago when some of the local kids took one or more cats, put them in a bag and were jumping on them repeatedly. Just sick with no empathy at all for the suffering of that poor creatures.

Regarding zoos, I don't like the idea of putting all sorts of creatures there just for our own amusement, but if some of them were in an emergency situation in wilderness and rescued that's different, but after that, new home in wilderness can be found for them in most situations I think. We can study, observe and admire them in their own habitats. But, the fact is that there are zoos and given the circumstances, what is the right thing to do is that we at least ensure that they are properly cared for until their natural death, not making spectacles for masses by senselessly killing them. One day, very soon I hope, there will be no this extreme STS behavior in our new environment, it will be our responsibility to build that kind of world, where ultimate respect for Nature will be our way of living, of Being.

 

[shellycheval]

Laura

They took a perfectly good planet populated with amazing creatures and just trashed it.

Amen to that

Laura

The only answer I see to that, and all the related problems, is to keep hammering on about psychopathy until people wake-up and we can sort out the system from the foundations up. But I also realize how unlikely that is to happen - more likely will be major catastrophes and suffering on a monumental scale. Well, all I can say if and when it happens is that human beings have brought it on themselves.

Indeed. Try to imagine the amount of suffering psychopathic and ponerized, damaged people have inflicted on others in any given neighborhood--tying their dogs to inadequate shelters in the back yard and ignoring them, traumatizing their children through their own ignorance and narcissism, poisoning the environment with their trash--NOW--multiply that on a global scale. The magnitude of the suffering on this planet must be resounding to the edges of the multiverse and screaming for change.
If destruction of humanity is what it is going to take to end it, then so be it.

 

[SeekinTruth]

Well put, Laura and shellycheval!

Can't put it in a nutshell better than this:

They took a perfectly good planet populated with amazing creatures and just trashed it.

 

[Corvus]

However, there does seem to be a recognized 'contract' between humans and those in captivity, whether it be animals, "prisoners and human slaves," or whatever. This 'contract' seems to involve a duty of care on the part of those responsible for those in captivity. This idea of a 'contract' is subjective, but so is the nature of our reality. Apart from abstract concepts, like mathematics, etc., everything we experience is subjective to how that information is processed in our own heads. While there may not be an 'objective' contract, for the reasons you gave, you must at least consider what this does to the collective human society at large when those in captivity are treated this way.

Human beings live in societies. Considering the long history of the human species and the theory of evolution, one can surmise that societies were beneficial to human survival. Therefore, if true, then human beings would have adapted those behaviors that were favorable for living in societies, such as empathy, sympathy, and certain inhibitions.

Zoos have been around for a long time and the animals therein are there for human enjoyment. I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing, so long as the animals are cared for properly. Therefore we collectively assign to the zookeepers a certain duty of care for those animals. We also assign the same duty of care to jailers, hospitals, teachers and parents for those in their care. Consider what may happen to the structure of human societies when the instinctual duty of care becomes eroded. What kind of impact would eroding a duty of care for zoo animals in this way have on the duty of care for inmates for example? What is the relationship between the duty of care of one category and another?

Do not get me wrong, I am for caring and nurture of animals and that is the best we can do here in this reality when dependent on some of them for food. Just I do not like idea of inflicting pain to other beings even for our own survival here, it devastates you emotionally(conscience, at least me)so as I see it the best thing is to get from this reality ASAP. We have a dog(golden retriver) and is well fed, has 35 kilos and had before that 40 kilos so he had to go on some diet because was too heavy and is muscular. We got him because sister wanted a dog, and this women was getting divorced so she gave him to us. Was very quiet and that guy that was ex of this women beat him. He likes to eat a lot and I think he would drop dead in eating if given unlimited food. He also sleeps in house sometimes and has huge house( dad s taste for construction grandiosity) and yard, and is being walked every day. He had three cute adorable puppies and we gave them away. If someone tried to hurt or hurt them I would probably explode and do not how would it end. One has gone to sister s japanese friends and is well cared, even sleeps with them in bed, and comes to visit his father sometimes, and then there is so running and excitment between them.

He is pure blooded so that means very sensitive when it comes to health so had to go to vets and get shoots some times. Sometimes he runs away if catching cat or rabbit but returns home everytime, but also is sensitive to territory when walking so he had incidents and fighting with outer dogs because when walking him in this specific area, there are no houses, it is a valey so we unleash him, but there can be other dogs sometimes scooping around that have no owners. Once I tried to separate them and that was bad idea, got scared. He is always excited before walks and now when sister has child dad walks him.

He is a good fellow and very playfull, happy. I remember my dad talking to me because I was too young during all those chaos in war years that one men shoot the dog we had. He was outraged, took the gun and wanted to shoot him for that and pointed the gun at him and this guy was scared, but then he said his brain started to work as are you crazy for wanting to kill a men for dog. Also I pat our neighbours dog every time I see him, and he always comes when he sees me so our fatman is jelous sometimes. Other neighbour had also one dog but he was ill fed and cared for, always on the leash. We fed him sometimes but he eventually died, now they have no dogs, and better they do not because it is a reponsibillity. Once we found little rabbit that was left alone so we cared for him but he could not survive without mother, he was detriorating. I called the vet but they were not working and he died, I was there looking when his last breath went and started crying(maybe it is funny for some, and me being too sensitive), and in the end buried him in the garden.

 

[Approaching Infinity]

The story of the hanging of the elephant (and the phenomenon of lynching in general) brought this passage from Ponerology to mind:

Moralizing interpretation: The tendency to impart a moralizing interpretation upon essentially pathological phenomena is an aspect of human nature whose discernable substratum is encoded in our specific instinct; namely humans normally fail to differentiate between moral and biological evil. Moralizing always surfaces, albeit to varying degrees, within the natural psychological and moral world view, which is why we should consider this tendency a permanent error of public opinion. We may curb it with increased self-knowledge, but overcoming it requires specific knowledge in the psychopathological area. Young people and less cultured circles always tend toward such interpretations (although it characterizes traditional esthetes too), which intensifies whenever our natural reflexes take over control from reason, i.e. in hysterical states, and in direct proportion to the intensity of egotism.

We close the door to a causative comprehension of phenomena and open it to vengeful emotions and psychological error whenever we impose a moralistic interpretation upon faults and errors in human behavior, which are in fact largely derived from the various influences of pathological factors, whether mentioned above or not, which are often obscured from minds untrained in this area. We thereby also permit these factors to continue their ponerogenic activities, both within ourselves and others. Nothing poisons the human soul and deprives us of our capacity to understand reality more objectively than this very obedience to that common human tendency to take a moralistic view of human behavior.

Practically speaking, to say the least, each instance of behavior that seriously hurts some other person contains within its psychological genesis the influence of some pathological factors, among other things, of course. Therefore, any interpretation of the causes of evil which would limit itself to moral categories is an inappropriate perception of reality. This can lead, generally speaking, to erroneous behavior, limiting our capacity for counteraction of the causative factors of evil and opening the door for lust for revenge. This frequently starts a new fire in the ponerogenic processes. We shall therefore consider a unilaterally moral interpretation of the origins of evil to be wrong and immoral at all times. The idea of overcoming this common human inclination and its results can be considered a moral motive intertwined throughout ponerology.

If we analyze the reasons why some people frequently overuse such emotionally-loaded interpretations, often indignantly rejecting a more correct interpretation, we shall of course also discover pathological factors acting within them. Intensification of this tendency in such cases is caused by repressing from the field of consciousness any self-critical concepts concerning their own behavior and its internal reasons. The influence of such people causes this tendency to intensify in others.