Marius the giraffe killed, butchered and fed to lions as children watch
- Thread starter Ocean
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Paddyjohn, just so you know, I too feel things on a deeper level than my conscious mind knows about or is even able to articulate. Sometimes it takes me several days of pondering to bring things to the surface where I can even speak about them. For many years, I too, was a "straight talker" - and still am at times. However, I have learned that in my role as a parent, it is not about me, it is about helping others to learn in a natural way so that the learning is THEIRS and not imposed on them by me. Thus, I have learned to "stay my hand" or words even if it hurts sometimes and I just want to scream at them "don't you SEEEEEE????"
As for animals, I love them too, (I should since we have 8 dogs and a cat and would have more if it was up to just me!) And yes, I have confronted others about cruelty to animals. But again, being a parent has been a hard school for me. There were times when I could barely afford to feed my children much less an animal. Hard choices had to be made and my children came first. I've learned to control myself a great deal because the survival of my family depended on it. So if you think I'm "slow to react" or do not react strongly enough to suit you, or in the way you think I should react or write, just keep in mind that there are other people to consider in all these dynamics and I prefer to allow people to work on these things and learn to do it considerately. It's not always easy, but it can be done, and you can do it too.
As for animals, I love them too, (I should since we have 8 dogs and a cat and would have more if it was up to just me!) And yes, I have confronted others about cruelty to animals. But again, being a parent has been a hard school for me. There were times when I could barely afford to feed my children much less an animal. Hard choices had to be made and my children came first. I've learned to control myself a great deal because the survival of my family depended on it. So if you think I'm "slow to react" or do not react strongly enough to suit you, or in the way you think I should react or write, just keep in mind that there are other people to consider in all these dynamics and I prefer to allow people to work on these things and learn to do it considerately. It's not always easy, but it can be done, and you can do it too.
And the bulls, I had grown with the “normal” way of seeing bullfighting, _http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullfighting, an spectacle of playing and killing bulls.Mr. Scott said:
That's why is important to not show kids that kind of killing, I have been learning to seeing things in another way, more human? I have been learning that I am ponerized and raised in/by pathological traits.
An uncle commented the other day that the bull won, so I asked him: if they cut to the performer in bullfighting (torero) his ears and tail? He was surprised with my kind of thinking.
Críostóir said:
I would go further than that and say that the Western and Israeli governments and Western media have been offering a live torturing and killing show for the public since 9/11. The deaths of Saddam Hussein, "Osama bin Laden", Gadaffi and the millions of murdered Iraqi, Afghani, Libyan, Palestinian and Syria civilians, have been displayed on television for the Western public's consumption, and in many cases, delight.
Vic
Jedi Council Member
Laura said:
Laura, I am grateful to you for what you have just said. In particular, the line I have bolded, I have looked at and understand. All my future interactions in this network will be based on this because I know it is how we all should be. I know you love animals from all I have read. That is one of the main reasons I have come here. When I read about that ******* ******* kicking your dog I went mental - to put it bluntly. I can't stand it, Laura. I just can't stand it.
But I will stand it of course. I'll stand anything. Knowing you are all here I will deal with it in the way that it is best dealt with.
Yes, you are still a straight talker, and don't you ever change. Obviously I can't relate fully to your role as a parent. Every time I have come close to being a parent circumstances have intervened - ectopic pregnacy, abortion (unbeknownst to me) and miscarriage. I think I am not meant to be a father in this life. I am happy with this. I think I would disintegrate with worry if I had a child of my own. I had a major influence on the early upbringing of two of my nephews, as their Dad was away. But I think I would stifle a child of my own. Fear of loss of the child would result in unacceptable control which would damage the child.
I am actually free. I have been made redundant. In four weeks I will be free to do what I want - within certain limits of course. Redundancy money and a lump sum from the company pension means I have a year of pure freedom.
Laura, I understand, to some degree, what you are dealing with. All I can say is thank you.
While reading this topic I remembered some writings about Caesar mentioning giraffes. So after some digging I found the following article. It's an account about giraffes during the Roman empire (yes some historians go into such specific research). Interestingly it's Julius Caesar that showed a giraffe to Roman people for the first time but notice that there's no mention of it being killed. It's only two centuries later that, according to ancient sources, a giraffe was killed in a Roman circus.
"I will give an account of the so-called camelopard, because it was then introduced into Rome by Caesar for the first time and exhibited to all. This animal is like a camel in all respects except that its legs are not all of the same length, the hind legs being the shorter. Beginning from the rump it grows gradually higher, which gives it the appearance of mounting some elevation; and towering high aloft, it supports the rest of its body on its front legs and lifts its neck in turn to an unusual height. Its skin is spotted like a leopard, and for this reason it bears the joint name of both animals."
Dio, Roman History (XLIII.23.1-2)
The giraffe brought from Alexandria by Julius Caesar in 46 BC was the first to be seen in Europe. An extraordinary creature, it appeared to the Romans to be part camel and part leopard, and was named after both: camelopardalis or camelopard (Varro, On the Latin Language, V.100; Pliny, Natural History, VIII.69; Diodorus Siculus, Library of History, II.51.1; Strabo, The Geography, XVI.4.16; Pausanias, Description of Greece, IX.21.2, who saw in Rome "Indian camels with the color of leopards"; Oppian, Cynegetica, III.461-481; Heliodorus, Aethiopica, X.27, who remarks on the gait). Aside from its appearance—the long neck and short hind legs, the dappled hide and bright eyes—the ancients remarked on the gentleness of the animal. Pliny calls it an ovis ferae ("wild sheep") and Heliodorus comments that it could be led by a small cord about its neck. Rather uncharitably, Gibbon dismisses the giraffe as "the tallest, the most gentle, and the most useless of the large quadrupeds" (The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, I.4).
Caesar's return to Rome (to be followed by Cleopatra, who even may have presented the giraffe as a gift) and the end of civil war was celebrated with five separate triumphs (Suetonius, XXXVII.1; Velleius Paterculus, Roman History, II.56.2). As part of these magnificent displays, Caesar exhibited his giraffe "at the games in the Circus" (Pliny, VIII.69). To commemorate the dedication of the Temple of Venus Genetrix, putative founder of the Julian clan, and the new Forum of Julius that year (Appian, The Civil Wars, CII), there also were contests in "a kind of hunting-theatre of wood, which was called an amphitheatre from the fact that it had seats all around without any stage. In honour of this and of his daughter [Julia who had died in childbirth almost twenty years before] he exhibited combats of wild beasts and gladiators" (Dio, XLIII.22.3).
Ominously, it is here that Dio injects his description of Caesar's giraffe. One would like to think that a creature so unsuited to the arena did not perish there. And, to be sure, not all venationes involved the hunting and killing of animals, especially if they were being viewed for the first time. Elephants captured in Sicily after the defeat of the Carthaginians, for example, may not have been killed in the triumphal games of 252 BC (VIII.16-17; Pliny cites contradictory sources). And Suetonius remarks of Augustus that "if anything rare and worth seeing was ever brought to the city, it was his habit to make a special exhibit of it in any convenient place on days when no shows were appointed" (XLIII.4). Dio, too, says of Caesar's giraffe that it was "exhibited to all." It does not follow, therefore, that exotic species necessarily were displayed simply to be killed as a public spectacle. But the destruction of the rare or valuable is one demonstration of power and, as Pliny observes about wealth, the proof of it is "to possess something that might be absolutely destroyed in a moment" (XXXIII.5).
Other giraffes continued to be seen (Pliny, VIII.69), but the first recorded killing of one does not occur until the late second century AD, when Commodus slaughtered a giraffe and rhinoceroses, as well as five hippopotamuses and two elephants in two days (Dio, LXXIII.10.3, who may have witnessed the event). In AD 248, Philip the Arab celebrated the millennium of Rome's founding with the display in the Circus of ten giraffes, elephants, tigers, lions, leopards, hippopotamuses, and a rhinoceros (Historia Augusta, XXXIII.1). This was the largest number of live giraffes ever brought together, although Aurelian is said to have marked his triumph over Zenobia, queen of Palmyra, in AD 274 with a presentation of giraffes (Historia Augusta, XXXIII.4).
The picture above is from a marble sarcophagus in the Walters Art Museum (Baltimore) depicting the triumph of Dionysus, who rides in a chariot pulled by panthers and is accompanied by other exotic animals, including elephants and a giraffe. It dates to about AD 190, toward the end of Commodus' rule, when the emperor was most obsessed with beast fights and gladiatorial combat.
The more I think about all this - especially since the more recent posts - the more it makes me shudder deeply.
Miss.K
Dagobah Resident
I'd like to thank everyone that has taken time to explain.
There is still a lot I don't understand about the reasoning of this situation,
so I still have a lot of unanswered questions (sometimes answers leed to more questions)
If it was a matter of opinions, I would never have engaged in the discussion in the first place,
but as it is a discussion forum designed to find the truth, I think it is important to understand,
both if something is true and why it is.
But I'm also considering that perhaps my not understanding something,
might not be important enough to take up more time and space here.
So I think perhaps it is better if I take some time to see if some answers appear when thinking more about the situation, and what has been said already,
or if at least the questions I still have seem valid enough for taking up time, before I say anything more.
So this is just to let you all know that I'm grateful for the efforts made to explain.
There is still a lot I don't understand about the reasoning of this situation,
so I still have a lot of unanswered questions (sometimes answers leed to more questions)
If it was a matter of opinions, I would never have engaged in the discussion in the first place,
but as it is a discussion forum designed to find the truth, I think it is important to understand,
both if something is true and why it is.
But I'm also considering that perhaps my not understanding something,
might not be important enough to take up more time and space here.
So I think perhaps it is better if I take some time to see if some answers appear when thinking more about the situation, and what has been said already,
or if at least the questions I still have seem valid enough for taking up time, before I say anything more.
So this is just to let you all know that I'm grateful for the efforts made to explain.
This is a very sad story, and a terrible indictment on human beings, about the hanging of a circus elephant named Mary in Tennessee in 1916.
The town that hanged an elephant
The town that hanged an elephant
H-KQGE
Dagobah Resident
Perceval said:
Thank you for posting Perceval. With all that we have studied on & off the forum to this day about history it seems that humanity has stopped learning a very very long time ago. With so much obfuscation around, I can only imagine the greater horrors suffered by millions of animals throughout history that we will probably never know. Our karmic debt/load just continues to grow unabated, where will it end? That picture of the elephant being hanged... I wasn't ready for that. But the discussion about their killing options was repugnant. They actually considered "quatering" her? (as in "hung drawn and quartered") They just kept on stabbing her?! What happened to people in that era to make them switch off their humanity so readily? If you couldn't do it to a small cuddly cute furry animal, (I mean torture) then how could you be able to do it to towering exotic majestic ones?
As they're plunging the sharp pointy forks & sticks, as they're cracking their whips & yelling abuse (with negative intent behind it as well) & not feeding them properly & showing general contempt, where is their conscience? What happened to their empathy?
Laura said:
History quite literally, keeps repeating.
Laura said:
That is really scary.
Edit: spelling.
Nancy2feathers
The Living Force
H-kqge said:
This is all so sad And so scary. To think this is how the zoo keepers feel or not feel about the animals they are to protect. I`m still baffled as to Why the zoo didn`t find another zoo/home for Marius. The public act of killing in this manner is unacceptable. It makes me wonder what was going through their minds to arrive at their decision. It seems they had options with so many people protesting against it. I just wonder if the zoo keepers feel anything?
I am too, so very sad. What, or should I say who will be next?
You know, the thing that really gives you pause is the way the PTB/system uses every opportunity to get very large percentages of humanity to accept utterly unacceptable things. Like the large scale murder of the men, women, and children around the world and the torture of "enemy combatants"/"terrorist supporters" under the guise of the "War on Terror." During the Vietnam War, for instance, when certain images and moving picture footage came to light (or even just reports without overwhelming images), there was widespread public outrage. For example, the napalm incident where the children are running, crying and in shock, having been burnt, with the girl whose clothes had been burned off; or some of the My Lai massacre stories, etc. Sure, much of the antiwar sentiment was because there was a draft and the middle class didn't want to go and fight this totally unnecessary, wasteful, and devastating war. But the outrage expressed at some of the atrocities were genuine, I think. And the outrage wasn't, of course, limited to the U.S., but was worldwide.
The other thing that came to mind this morning, after reading mabar's post, is that I always had a huge revulsion to bullfighting. That's another thing that totally astonishes me - I just can't understand how this is tolerated. It's MUCH worse than zoos. But this is limited to cultures influenced by Spain mainly. It's not a worldwide phenomenon.
The thing that keeps going around in my mind is that this and similar things ARE a marker, and the C's have mentioned the importance of such things, including specifically they mentioned about accepting torture being like the "mark of the beast" and accepting assassinations too, mentioned even more recently, I think, having a huge amount at stake and likely very severe repercussions for humanity.
Regarding the hanging of the elephant in Tennessee in 1916, they used to still lynch "colored" people and do all sorts of other horrible things in those days (I haven't looked at that article yet - I need a break for this kind of thing - I have to get back to some other things and may look at it later).
Even though there was a large outcry about the killing and the rest of the outrage about Marius the giraffe, it wasn't really on a global scale of outrage. I guess, BECAUSE not enough people think about these kinds of things as a marker, and probably because the ponerization has advanced too far and also people are struggling with tough times and this may not seem to be that big a deal. Not sure.
The other thing that came to mind this morning, after reading mabar's post, is that I always had a huge revulsion to bullfighting. That's another thing that totally astonishes me - I just can't understand how this is tolerated. It's MUCH worse than zoos. But this is limited to cultures influenced by Spain mainly. It's not a worldwide phenomenon.
The thing that keeps going around in my mind is that this and similar things ARE a marker, and the C's have mentioned the importance of such things, including specifically they mentioned about accepting torture being like the "mark of the beast" and accepting assassinations too, mentioned even more recently, I think, having a huge amount at stake and likely very severe repercussions for humanity.
Regarding the hanging of the elephant in Tennessee in 1916, they used to still lynch "colored" people and do all sorts of other horrible things in those days (I haven't looked at that article yet - I need a break for this kind of thing - I have to get back to some other things and may look at it later).
Even though there was a large outcry about the killing and the rest of the outrage about Marius the giraffe, it wasn't really on a global scale of outrage. I guess, BECAUSE not enough people think about these kinds of things as a marker, and probably because the ponerization has advanced too far and also people are struggling with tough times and this may not seem to be that big a deal. Not sure.
After i read about murdering this young giraffe in the ZOO in fron of all that children my ALERT light powered on.Few days before that another
Young giraffe died in vague circumstances in the ZOO in Skopje in Mаcedonia almost one month ago
http://www.dnevnik.mk/?ItemID=418CAC652F865D449CB21C9ED955DD9B
That giraffe was the pride of this ZOO.
So, i thought that this is maybe some kind of symbolism , some kind of code in which cosmos is talking to us.
Giraffe with her long neck can get something that is very high something that is unreachable to other animals.She can see much further so she can know much more, and that is symbolicly killed.
On this site :
http://www.shamanicjourney.com/article/6035/giraffe-power-animal-symbol-of-grounded-vision-farsightedness
i read something about giraffe as symbolism on that site and i will quote some of that text here
Did death of this animals, this spectacle killing of the first one and great media exposure of the death of the second one is what message is
delivered to us to humanity. It represents the death of our higher goals, spiritual goals. That somebody wants to kill our desire for knowledge . Read the quoted text for better understanding of what i mean. Is this a message of the universe, of the 4D STS and their soldiers here on 3th Density - psychopaths ?.
Maybe i`m completly wrong, i`m just trying to think loud.Its a little difficult to me to express my thoughts as i want because English is not my first language but i hope i did it as much as i could.
Young giraffe died in vague circumstances in the ZOO in Skopje in Mаcedonia almost one month ago
http://www.dnevnik.mk/?ItemID=418CAC652F865D449CB21C9ED955DD9B
That giraffe was the pride of this ZOO.
So, i thought that this is maybe some kind of symbolism , some kind of code in which cosmos is talking to us.
Giraffe with her long neck can get something that is very high something that is unreachable to other animals.She can see much further so she can know much more, and that is symbolicly killed.
On this site :
http://www.shamanicjourney.com/article/6035/giraffe-power-animal-symbol-of-grounded-vision-farsightedness
i read something about giraffe as symbolism on that site and i will quote some of that text here
Did death of this animals, this spectacle killing of the first one and great media exposure of the death of the second one is what message is
delivered to us to humanity. It represents the death of our higher goals, spiritual goals. That somebody wants to kill our desire for knowledge . Read the quoted text for better understanding of what i mean. Is this a message of the universe, of the 4D STS and their soldiers here on 3th Density - psychopaths ?.
Maybe i`m completly wrong, i`m just trying to think loud.Its a little difficult to me to express my thoughts as i want because English is not my first language but i hope i did it as much as i could.
Ocean
The Living Force
When I first read this story, my immediate reaction as i continued down from the headline was complete revulsion. Revulsion at the inhumanity of these people.
I almost skipped the 'excuse' part where they pretended they had no choice but to butcher the animal. Skimmed over the excuses and thought Yeah right - Like we believe you - Not.
The horror which I saw was the senseless killing of a beautiful young animal and done for so many reasons that I felt stunned at the realisation of this.
As a message to people that life is worthless
As a message that there is no hope for humanity - there cannot be any hope when you see crowds gathering round the giraffe as if mesmerised and did nothing about it. I was shocked to see all those people just gaping and accepting the situation. And in some cases actually laughing.
I was saddened by the fact that the psychopaths at this zoo really felt and knew that the populace was in such a state of apathy and complacency that they could literally get away with anything. Reminscent of the Nazis no?
I was saddened by the psychopaths targeting the kids, the future of our world. Children who love to go to the zoo want to see the cute, cuddly fluffy animals. The big ones, the huge ones and the tiny little ones. See the sights and hear the sounds of the animals. These children are at a very impressionable age, and my goodness what kind of an impression must be embedded in their little memories witnessing this spectacle.
This was a determined psychopathic act. And was meant to send a clear message to everyone.
'We don't give a shit about animals, humans and especially kids.'
Russia seems to be right thinking, they have come out and officially condemned the act
And did anyone catch what Keit reported in a previous post :-
'Bengt Holst, one of the controversial directors at Copenhagen Zoo, has been appointed by the Government as chairman of the official Animal Ethics Committee. Among other things, the AEC has upheld Danish laws allowing zoophilia (rape/sex with animals):
Denmark remains one of the few nations in Europe supporting this practice'
Say What! The director of Copenhagen Zoo is supporting the law to allow bestiality (sex with animals!)
The Danes must be sick in the head. They also slaughter whales in the Faroe islands
I am completely incensed!
I almost skipped the 'excuse' part where they pretended they had no choice but to butcher the animal. Skimmed over the excuses and thought Yeah right - Like we believe you - Not.
The horror which I saw was the senseless killing of a beautiful young animal and done for so many reasons that I felt stunned at the realisation of this.
As a message to people that life is worthless
As a message that there is no hope for humanity - there cannot be any hope when you see crowds gathering round the giraffe as if mesmerised and did nothing about it. I was shocked to see all those people just gaping and accepting the situation. And in some cases actually laughing.
I was saddened by the fact that the psychopaths at this zoo really felt and knew that the populace was in such a state of apathy and complacency that they could literally get away with anything. Reminscent of the Nazis no?
I was saddened by the psychopaths targeting the kids, the future of our world. Children who love to go to the zoo want to see the cute, cuddly fluffy animals. The big ones, the huge ones and the tiny little ones. See the sights and hear the sounds of the animals. These children are at a very impressionable age, and my goodness what kind of an impression must be embedded in their little memories witnessing this spectacle.
This was a determined psychopathic act. And was meant to send a clear message to everyone.
'We don't give a shit about animals, humans and especially kids.'
Russia seems to be right thinking, they have come out and officially condemned the act
And did anyone catch what Keit reported in a previous post :-
'Bengt Holst, one of the controversial directors at Copenhagen Zoo, has been appointed by the Government as chairman of the official Animal Ethics Committee. Among other things, the AEC has upheld Danish laws allowing zoophilia (rape/sex with animals):
Denmark remains one of the few nations in Europe supporting this practice'
Say What! The director of Copenhagen Zoo is supporting the law to allow bestiality (sex with animals!)
The Danes must be sick in the head. They also slaughter whales in the Faroe islands
I am completely incensed!
Lan8r
Jedi Master
Miss.K posted:
This is an emotional issue, and it should be. I can appreciate that one would want to look at this with as much 'objectivity' as possible. But I would imagine that 'true objectivity' would be the goal. As opposed to black and white, strictly emotional vs. intellectual 'objectivity'.
When I read the above in bold, Gurdieff means by the horses running with the wagon, I was flabbergasted that those words could be used as a manipulative means to 'objectify' the overwhelming emotional response to this inhumane act.
I struggle to objectively apply Gurdieff's intent with this analogy, however, I can relate to it completely. I have, in the physical sense, been the driver (master) of a horse (emotional) drawn carriage, or wagon if you so choose. In reality, the driver is actually the least physically significant member of the the team. The horse(s) (emotions) are the 'engine', the force of forward mobility/momentum. The carriage is essentially physically set and unyielding. It is the driver's position on the carriage that allows him a broader view (knowledge) of the circumstances plus his ability to form a trust, a mutual understanding of the horse (emotions) and an ability to communicate his viewpoint that leads to a safe passage. And in order for the driver to be competent in that he has to also be receptive to the horse (emotions). He has to be willing to see the situation from the horses 'point of reference' to truly gauge the 'objective truth' of the circumstance 'on the ground', so to speak.
So, having said that, after reading the long list of 'objective questions' and insightful responses, and watching the video attempting to typify and exemplify this behaviour as normal (seriously?), it appears to me that this is more an example of 'unhitching the horse' and 'pushing the wagon' by the shear (psychopathic?) force of the driver alone? You ain't going nowhere without the horse!
And to play the 'education card', really gets my goat. Anatomy and physiology are important subjects, but 'True Knowledge', the basic human capacity for empathy, understanding and compassion for all life should be the foundation and the impetus. Regardless of any particular animal's 'station' (ie wild vs domesticated), or even any Human's for that matter, as we use them (our own species even) in name of science as well.
This is an emotional issue, and it should be. I can appreciate that one would want to look at this with as much 'objectivity' as possible. But I would imagine that 'true objectivity' would be the goal. As opposed to black and white, strictly emotional vs. intellectual 'objectivity'.
When I read the above in bold, Gurdieff means by the horses running with the wagon, I was flabbergasted that those words could be used as a manipulative means to 'objectify' the overwhelming emotional response to this inhumane act.
I struggle to objectively apply Gurdieff's intent with this analogy, however, I can relate to it completely. I have, in the physical sense, been the driver (master) of a horse (emotional) drawn carriage, or wagon if you so choose. In reality, the driver is actually the least physically significant member of the the team. The horse(s) (emotions) are the 'engine', the force of forward mobility/momentum. The carriage is essentially physically set and unyielding. It is the driver's position on the carriage that allows him a broader view (knowledge) of the circumstances plus his ability to form a trust, a mutual understanding of the horse (emotions) and an ability to communicate his viewpoint that leads to a safe passage. And in order for the driver to be competent in that he has to also be receptive to the horse (emotions). He has to be willing to see the situation from the horses 'point of reference' to truly gauge the 'objective truth' of the circumstance 'on the ground', so to speak.
So, having said that, after reading the long list of 'objective questions' and insightful responses, and watching the video attempting to typify and exemplify this behaviour as normal (seriously?), it appears to me that this is more an example of 'unhitching the horse' and 'pushing the wagon' by the shear (psychopathic?) force of the driver alone? You ain't going nowhere without the horse!
And to play the 'education card', really gets my goat. Anatomy and physiology are important subjects, but 'True Knowledge', the basic human capacity for empathy, understanding and compassion for all life should be the foundation and the impetus. Regardless of any particular animal's 'station' (ie wild vs domesticated), or even any Human's for that matter, as we use them (our own species even) in name of science as well.
