Matriarchy to Patriarchy in the Neolithic and the Y-Chromosome Bottleneck

[axj]

I stumbled upon this 16-minute video (posted 5 months ago) based on the Y-chromosome bottleneck effect of that period. Though, the hypothesis is not that women were the killers.

Well, his theory that a massive war killed 95% of all males in the late Neolithic is only supported by the fact that numerous massacre sites were found from that time - mostly in Europe. It could be that widespread violence contributed to the bottleneck.

Though this violence seems to have been between the early farming societies (which seem to have been mostly matriarchies) before the large-scale migration of the indo-european steppe herders (patriarchies) somewhat later.

 

[Ben]

By choosing which offspring survives and reproduces. And killing the rest.

And yes I don't know if that interpretation is correct, I just shared. Also my original idea that it was genetic selection campaign done by 4D STS across the world early in the cycle after Atlantis, to prepare genetic ground for later in the cycle, doesn't have to be true. I just offered it is a possible option. To me it seems likely true. And that's it.

That would suggest that the C's own answers point in a completely different direction to a clue which you think they left in the form of wordplay. Given that this is a topic concerned with ancient history, and unlikely to lead to any knowledge which could be dangerous for the group to know in the present, why would they do this? It obscures the truth, rather than inspires research. In that case I consider it to be very unlikely. I think you weight the probability of this idea being true based on how much you like it, or because it is original to you.

 

[Nienna]

I hadn't. I only offered a possible play on words interpretation. I didnt insult or abuse Cs words.

For any reason? Even in pursuit of truth and learning. Respectfuly that sounds like dogmatic thinking. Am I going to be banned now?

Yes! Regardless of how you want to twist what was done to make you seem correct. Putting the quotes as you did with the question and answer format makes that look as if that was what was said by the Cs. You do not do that and change what the Cs have said. The fact that you think it would be okay to do shows just how untrustworthy your posts can be. And being rude and condescending does not help your situation.

I put a possible interpretation of mine in the brackets, so it is clear that it is my own and not Cs.

it doesn't matter. There are those who may be new to the material and that is very confusing to them.

Sure. I could have. I expressed the best I knew based on how my mind works, and it works unusully. Whoops.

Yes, it is very telling.

 

[seek10]

I was surprised about how this topic triggered so much discussion.

Interestingly this diagram didn't exist in the current paper that Micheal B-C quoted in his 2022 post. If it was removed later (in the paper), we may have to look at why and the reasons etc. I will keep that aside for now, to express my line of search. I wondered whether we can understand better w.r.t C's cosmology.

Origin of my question

while doing my research on India and Hinduism, I came across Nilesh Oak's video that is claiming Mahabharata happened in 5600 BCE citing the same bottleneck paper- aka mahabharata (MB) is so big that lot of males died. I was not convinced for few reasons.

• His dating is based on overlapping of the MB astronomical descriptions ( Stars, constellations, Indian seasons etc.) using modern software and claims hundreds of data points matching to this data. But, C's mentioned of slow 22 degrees tilt after 2300 BCE. So these software depiction can't be correct at that time. C's didn't mention previous orientation to current orientation ( Polaris as polestar from 500 AD), so we don't have information to proceed.
• As per the genetic studies, this is a worldwide phenomenon and if we "assume" that MB is local phenomenon ( but i have to change my opinion due some crucial info. from Plato preHistorian and C's comments- but that is for a different post, and is not related to this Y-chromosomal bottleneck periods) . but that is my assumption a month back.

so I didn't pursue this line of research and ignored it. But, while watching another video (few days before the session) of debate between Nilesh Oak (suggests 5600 BCE MB date) vs Vedveer Arya ( 3100 BCE), the same data point came. After searching for few articles and video's (and differing dates and confusion), I searched the forum to find the Michael B-C's 3 years old post and his analysis. He also linked this with 5600 BCE freemason founding (by osirians as per C's). It thought this anomaly can't be explained with any of what the causes we know ( comets etc.).

But, I don't want to ask the question as I felt Nilesh Oak's MB date was not correct and I told myself, there is nothing go about there. But some ruminating thoughts keep popping up and I rationalized thinking "it was weird phenomenon like - libido reduction related Wave, we witnessed 2 decades back and all those "Viagra promotion episodes" etc. To relieve the pressure, I wrote the question on a document to let it go. But, when the session came, I got tempted to post it at the last minute and Laura happens to find it useful to ask it. What C's mentioned is somewhat wild.

Initially, based on what other events going on at that time, I thought it may be related to Nephilim (to get rid of human male competition). I ignored location level date differences as it was not there in the paper I downloaded. But, that too, depends on the purpose of Nephilim in human affairs as the overseers and their master's expectations. We don't know much other than they are overseers with 'stun guns' etc. But, every body is a psycho in the world, where does the spiritual energy that 4D STS feeds on comes from?. So it can't complete replacement, at best some little replacement but gone out of control? Even that doesn't explain the regional differences.

Overlapping C's cosmology to this graph
I overlapped cosmology events and some of Plato Prehistorian data points on it (IN THE same colors of the diagram color notations) to see what comes out. Some considerations in the process of overlapping are:

• Mary Settegast's dates needs some offsetting based on what C's said - explain it later.
• In this diagram, I put C's Egyptian items in Africa. But, if we look at the DNA sample taken from Africa, they are not from Egypt, but from central africa. that may skew the conclusions in already complicated situation.
  
  • 
• Green dots below is related to Dravidian Tamils claim of "sunken Kumara kandam" from their ancient sangam periods - 3 periods. I put Vedveer Arya' (VA)s dates (as they are more in synch with what C's said about the date ) . Kumari Kandam claim is from what Tamils called from their

My Text Colors are not perfectly matching, but you get what I am trying to say. Here is Overlapped diagram.



As a whole, the story doesn't seem as simple as "Matriarchy means massacres". There are different local nuances. I will write region by region ( or color) to better organize my thoughts and with the possibility of additions later.

 

[seek10]

Europe (in Yellow)

To sum up: We have 8.5 KBCE stonehenge, 4.2K BCE Avebury Henge. So there is some continuity and bottleneck is NOT during this period. The dip or bottleneck happened after that around 3K BCE. - so this may not related to Nephilim phenomenon. Probably there is some thing else going on.

 

[seek10]

Here is Overlapped diagram.

Africa (in Red)
As I told I put Egypt in Africa, but the data samples are from central Africa. We have a problem related to assumption that the current position of sample is more or less similar in the past. I guess these researchers does some adjustments, if they know about the migrations. I don't know too much about that methodology. But there is some text from Plato Prehistorian I found it be curious for few reasons.

Plato, Prehistorian page 39

* As we shall see later, the archaeological record of Egypt is almost blank from 8500 to 4500 b.c., but one of the last entries from Epi-Paleolithic times is a collection of arrowheads at Helwan in Lower Egypt. As these were among the several types of tanged points that dominated the eastern Mediterranean in the last half of the ninth millennium, Egypt may indeed have been involved in a larger war by that time.

• As per C's, Giza and Sphinx creation was around 8.5K BCE. They also say Atlantis recovered after flood, but wiped out by Crystals. They also say "our computers will overtake us the way crystals overtook them" ( or similar lines). What happened to create 4000 years of missing archeological records?
  • Some goof up happened with Crystal energy from Giza and Sphinx, that wiped them out? - Is it like our Microsoft AI wants to 'wipe the humans' out type of thing?. We can speculate so many ways with no firm evidence. This Crystal has lot more dangerous related to dimensional shifts. But this 'blank archeological record in Egypt' is very interesting. Is it related? I know it is wildand at the same time 4000 years empty records in Egypt is interesting.
  • In any case, bottleneck happened in 3K BCE in Africa like in Europe. but it is hard to know whether this is related to egypt or central africa.

To sum up: It is hard to comment ( or have some opinion) on Africa bottleneck situation at least for me.

 

[seek10]

Here is Overlapped diagram.

Near East region ( Orange):

I put some of the Mary Settegast's data points from plato prehistorian (with approx. 1000 years offset based on what C's said)


What I find it curious Neolithic Revolutions.

• See Neolithic revolution phase 1 ( 8.5K - 8K after offset ; early agriculture) and Neolithic revolution phase 2 ( 6.5K - 6K after offset - related to Zarathustra ).
• C's date of Aryan (Iranian farmers with archaic Sanskrit) Invasion into India happened 6249 BCE- that is middle of Zarathustra's Neolithic revolution phase 2.
  • I always wondered about C's choice of giving EXACT date for Aryan Invasion into India, as if that mattered. Few other cases they gave exact date like freemasons etc.
  • Most probably, Avesta/Vedas split ( asuras good guys in Zoroastrianism, bad guys in Vedas) happened with this Invasion. I have few reasons to suspect that.

To sum up: I have to wonder about Near-East bouncing back (from bottleneck) so fast is related Zoroastrianism/Zarathustra? Around the same time, Aryan Iranian farmer invasion into India ( 6.2K BCE) happened, it not only triggered bottleneck and stayed there for a long time. But the story in South Asia/India looks lot more nuanced than that.

 

[seek10]

Here is Overlapped diagram.

South Asia/India
2 main "Threads" (or races) in the Indian subcontinent.

• Locals - Parantha descendants/Asian Tribes/Dravidians/Nagas: 2 threads within Dravidians.
  • Dravidian Tamils: Kumari Kandam proponents of Dravidian Tamils who insist on Kumari's (virgins) ruling during their Sangam periods ( 3 periods with in Sangam period) aka Matriarchy. these guys has strong anti-Aryan religious sentiments that runs modern day Politics.
    • 
  • Non-Tamil Dravidians (Telugu and Kannada) : These dravidian language has Dravidian base and more Sanskrit overlapping. These guys doesn't have anti-Aryan/Hindi/Sanskrit/Brahmin sentiments (like Tamilians) and don't care about language. But they are also called Nagas and they have the history of matriarchy too.
• Invading Aryans with archaic Sanskrit.
  • They are supposed be patriarchial from . But how many invasions into India is a question and that mixes things up.

To sum up: There is matriarchy in India with Dravidians. but that doesn't directly translate to bottleneck. Copilot's take on the matriarchy, dravidians and aryans etc.

Question: Out of 3 Sangam periods, which Sangam period, Kumari's (virgins) ruled them? - copilot

According to Tamil legends and revivalist interpretations—particularly those surrounding the mythic land of Kumari Kandam—it is said that virgins (Kumaris) ruled during the First Sangam period, which was held in Then Madurai, a city believed to have been submerged by the sea.

First Sangam Period and Kumari Rule​

• First Sangam:
  • Held in Then Madurai, now considered lost beneath the Indian Ocean.
  • Said to have lasted 4,400 years.
  • Attended by gods, sages, and legendary poets.
  • No surviving texts, but works like Agattiyam and Paripadal are attributed to this era.
• Kumari Kandam Connection:
  • Tamil revivalist literature links the First Sangam to Kumari Kandam, a mythical continent believed to have been ruled by Pandyan queens and Kumaris (virgin rulers).
  • This tradition holds that women held sovereign power, possibly in matriarchal or priestess roles.
• Symbolism of “Kumari”:
  • The term “Kumari” means virgin or maiden in Tamil.
  • It is both a geographic and spiritual marker—referring to the Kumari River, Kumari Mountains, and the goddess Korravai, associated with feminine power.

Summary​

Sangam Period	Location	Kumari Rule
First Sangam	Then Madurai (submerged)	Yes—ruled by Kumaris (virgins)
Second Sangam	Kapadapuram	No direct mention
Third Sangam	Present-day Madurai	No—patronized by Pandyan kings

This tradition is mythic and symbolic, not archaeological, but it reflects a deep cultural memory of feminine sovereignty in Tamil cosmology.

Let’s explore how the myth of Kumari rule in the First Sangam period connects to goddess worship and gender dynamics in early Tamil culture. This thread weaves together mythology, Sangam literature, and symbolic geography.

---

Kumari Rule and Goddess Worship​

The Kumaris as Rulers​

• In Tamil myth, Kumaris (virgins) are said to have ruled Then Madurai during the First Sangam, a time of divine and poetic flourishing.
• These rulers are often associated with spiritual purity, wisdom, and cosmic authority, not just political power.
• The idea of virgin queens may reflect a priestess class or matriarchal governance, where women held ritual and cultural leadership.

Goddess Korravai and Feminine Power​

• Korravai, the Tamil war and fertility goddess, is central to early Tamil worship.
  • She is fierce, independent, and often depicted riding a lion.
  • Associated with victory, protection, and motherhood, she embodies both virgin and maternal archetype.
• 
  
• Korravai is linked to Durga in Sanskrit traditions but retains a uniquely Tamil identity.
• Her worship suggests a society that revered feminine strength, especially in battle and fertility rites.

Kumari Kandam as Sacred Feminine Geography​

• The mythic land of Kumari Kandam is named after the virgin goddess and symbolizes a lost matriarchal civilization.
• Mountains, rivers, and temples in Tamil Nadu (e.g., Kanyakumari) are named after Kumari, reinforcing the sacred geography of feminine power.
• The submergence of Kumari Kandam is sometimes interpreted as the decline of feminine sovereignty and the rise of patriarchal systems.

---

Gender Dynamics in Sangam Literature​

While the Third Sangam period (whose texts survive) reflects a patriarchal society, it still preserves echoes of female autonomy and reverence:

• Women poets like Avvaiyar were respected for wisdom and moral guidance.
• Heroines in Sangam poems often express desire, agency, and emotional depth, not just passive roles.
• Love poems (Akam genre) portray women as active participants in romantic and social life.
• Warfare and heroism (Puram genre) include references to women mourning, inspiring, or even fighting.

---

Summary: Myth and Memory​

Element	Feminine Role
First Sangam (Then Madurai)	Kumaris as sovereign rulers
Korravai Worship	Goddess of war, fertility, and independence
Kumari Kandam Myth	Sacred land ruled by virgins, symbol of lost matriarchy
Sangam Literature	Women as poets, lovers, mourners, and moral voices

---

Situation in India seems to be more nuanced than in other places. How many times we have seen people are railed up against some "identity" ( males/female, Muslims/others etc.). But that happening for 4000 years is rather interesting though.

 

[axj]

They also say Atlantis recovered after flood, but wiped out by Crystals.

Noah's flood and the final destruction of Atlantis seem to have been the same event, according to the C's. Though they said that this final destruction was caused by crystals, as well as Mars and Venus close passages:

November 16, 1994

Q: (L) And you said that the "flood of Noah" was the story of the final deluge and destruction of Atlantis?

A: Yes.

Q: (L) And that was caused by what?

A: Venus.

Q: (L) I thought you said it was caused by Martek?

A: Yes.

Q: (L) Well, how can it be caused by Venus if it was caused by Martek?

A: Venus also "caused" Martek.

November 19, 1994

Q: (L) So, how many seperate destructions did Atlantis experience?

A: Three.

Q: (L) One was caused by the close passage of Mars?

A: Yes. And comets.

Q: (L) Was Mars and the comets loosely interactive?

A: Yes.

Q: (L) And the second was caused by what?

A: Venus.

Q: (L) And the third and final destruction was caused by what?

A: Crystals.

Maybe the somewhat contradictory answers on what caused the final destruction of Atlantis (crystals or a flood caused by the close passage of Venus and Mars?) could be explained by the fact that these were some of the earliest sessions with about 70% accuracy, according to the C's.

 

[ApotheosisMMC.]

Noah's flood and the final destruction of Atlantis seem to have been the same event, according to the C's. Though they said that this final destruction was caused by crystals, as well as Mars and Venus close passages:





Maybe the somewhat contradictory answers on what caused the final destruction of Atlantis (crystals or a flood caused by the close passage of Venus and Mars?) could be explained by the fact that these were some of the earliest sessions with about 70% accuracy, according to the C's.

I don't see enough of a contradiction; it seems to me that the second series of responses shows the breakdown of the first response, which was of a more universal nature.

 

[axj]

I don't see enough of a contradiction; it seems to me that the second series of responses shows the breakdown of the first response, which was of a more universal nature.

Not really. In the first session they said the final destruction of Atlantis was caused by Venus and Mars passing close-by and causing Noah's flood. No word about crystals there.

In the second session they said the final destruction of Atlantis was caused by their crystals. No mention of Mars or Venus or the flood there for the final destruction.

 

[seek10]

In the second session they said the final destruction of Atlantis was caused by their crystals. No mention of Mars or Venus or the flood there for the final destruction.

November 16, 1994

Q: (L) And you said that the "flood of Noah" was the story of the final deluge and destruction of Atlantis?

A: Yes.

I think, it is final deluge, not final destruction of Atlantis.

Sep 16, 2017

(Pierre) Let’s shift to a more cheerful topic: cometary bombardments. So we discussed the death of the woolly mammoths due to a cometary bombardment. I would like to know about the transfer of water from Mars to planet Earth, when did it occur relative to this cometary bombardment? How many years before, how many years after?

A: Within 40 years more or less

 

[axj]

I think, it is final deluge, not final destruction of Atlantis.

The question in the session was about final deluge and destruction of Atlantis.

The deluge happening within 40 years of the comet impacts also does not seem to be connected to the crystals. Unless the crystals attracted the comets and the deluge of water from Mars. In any case, comets and deluge within 40 years is close to being a single event, though it may be enough time for some recovery before final destruction.

 

[Ricardo]

First Sangam:

• Held in Then Madurai, now considered lost beneath the Indian Ocean.

Maybe related / confirming this , when 2004 tsunami hit India's coast , it was reported that ruins were spotted on seabed further out of its current coastline ( thus otherwise permanently below sea line ).

 

[seek10]

Maybe related / confirming this , when 2004 tsunami hit India's coast , it was reported that ruins were spotted on seabed further out of its current coastline ( thus otherwise permanently below sea line ).

yes, temples were temporarily spotted in 2004 and they are linked ancient Tamil civilization. But, they may not be 'old Madhurai' though. These temporary visibility during tsunami is on the eastern side of the Tamilnadu (southern-most Indian state). But, Vedveer Arya places it in the south side of India (I couldn't find the picture now- based on other descriptions like unit of distance 'kavatam' used, probably he was correct).

The Chronology of India : From Mahabharata to Medieval Era.- page 264

The Submergence of Kumarikkottam and the City of South Madura (~6826 BCE)

South Madura or Thenmadurai, the first capital of early Pāndya kings was the center of Sangam literary activities. This city was submerged by sea at the end of the first Sangam period. The oceanographic researches have conclusively proven that the sea level in the Indian peninsula has risen by 100 meters in the last 14500 years.8 Interestingly, the sea level has risen more than 60 meters during the period of 4400 or 4440 years of the first Sangam period (11226-6826 BCE). Evidently, a huge landmass of the early Pāndyan kingdom was submerged by the sea including the capital city of Thenmadurai. The Sinnamannur copper plates9 refer to a Praśasti written by Vasudeva and mention that an ancient Pāndyan king had erected a wall round Madura city. Evidently, the Pāndya kings of the first Sangam period made all possible efforts to protect their capital from the rising sea level.

Numerous ancient Tamil sources refer to the submergence of a huge landmass of early Pāndyan kingdom known as Kumarikkottam or
Kumarikkodu or Kumari Kandam etc. This region had a hill range known as Kumarikkottam which was the origin of Kumari River. Tolkāppiyam records that 49 nādus (villages or territories) of Pāndyan kingdom were submerged by the sea. Most probably, Pāndya kings had regularly lost their land to sea since 11226 BCE. The city of Thenmadurai finally got submerged by sea around 6826 BCE.