Must not be doing it right

[Menna]

External Consideration. If an event happens or someone says something that I don't like sometimes I hold my tongue because I know that if I speak up or say something or point out another persons faults or what I didnt like about what they did it will hurt their feelings. I feel good in the moment when I spare them the hurt but then later when I go home I think about what has happened and then an emotion builds in me that makes it harder to think the event or what the person said clogs my mind. I then examin what happened and why that person did what they did and what could that mean? why did they do this? and so on. It is worse with the person or people closest to me. I don't want to hurt them so I wont react or say what I feel but then later on when I am alone I think about what happened. Ask myself why would they say or do that if they are thinking about or are considering me. My mind starts to obsess and ask questions. Can I live with this person? or be with that person if they are going to continue to make decisions like this or talk that way to me?

Any advice on how to better use this practice

 

[Hildegarda]

it is hard to give general advice on this practice, because clearly there is a particular incident that's bothering you. If you would like to describe the situation, people may be able to offer you specific feedback.

 

[mada85]

Here's a short quote from Gurdjieff on the subject of external considering (taken from In Search of the Miraculous).

External considering [...] is adaptation towards people, to their understanding, to their requirements. By considering externally a man does that which makes life easy for other people and himself. External considering requires a knowledge of men, an understanding of their tastes, habits, and prejudices. At the same time external considering requires a great power over oneself, a great control over oneself. Very often a man desires sincerely to express or somehow or other show to another man what he really thinks of him or feels about him. And if he is a weak man he will of course give way to this desire and afterwards justify himself and say that he did not want to lie, did not want to pretend, he wanted to be sincere.

I think that you may be describing a process of external considering turning into internal considering. At the beginning of your post you write:

If an event happens or someone says something that I don't like sometimes I hold my tongue because I know that if I speak up or say something or point out another persons faults or what I didnt like about what they did it will hurt their feelings.

Holding your tongue is external considering, OSIT, since you realise that your reaction to the other's behaviour is just that – your reaction, and of course is mechanical in nature. Hurting their feelings would not be making ' life easy for other people and himself', as Gurdjieff says. Then later in the post you write:

later on when I am alone I think about what happened. Ask myself why would they say or do that if they are thinking about or are considering me. My mind starts to obsess and ask questions. Can I live with this person? or be with that person if they are going to continue to make decisions like this or talk that way to me?

These thoughts, when you are alone after the event, are internal considering – self-importance, or so I think. They are all about you. Unless the other person is involved in the Work it is unlikely that they practice external considering in the way that we talk here about it. And it appears to me that your own desire to have the other person consider you, in the manner to which your self-importance makes you feel entitled, is what triggers these obsessive thoughts. Would it be possible to step back a little from your emotional and mental reactions and observe them in yourself as an automatic process that steals your energy?

A little more from Gurdjieff:

But if a man really remembers himself he understands that another man is a machine just as he is himself. And then he will enter into his position, he will put himself in his place, and he will be really able to understand and feel what another man thinks and feels.

 

[Julius]

I'm many 'haunted' by these some questions, sometimes I cannot define them (much less verbalize), but reading them in this forum makes them clear to me, makes clear to define what is going on inside me.
I think it comes down to real-time self-remembering, paying attention to whether or not one is being/acting mechanical, in auto-pilot so to say or if one is attentive to the inner processes and acting accordingly to that same focus of attention. Be it in social situations or at home alone with our own thoughts.

 

[Menna]

"These thoughts, when you are alone after the event, are internal considering – self-importance, or so I think. They are all about you. Unless the other person is involved in the Work it is unlikely that they practice external considering in the way that we talk here about it. And it appears to me that your own desire to have the other person consider you, in the manner to which your self-importance makes you feel entitled, is what triggers these obsessive thoughts. Would it be possible to step back a little from your emotional and mental reactions and observe them in yourself as an automatic process that steals your energy?"

Yes yes that is it. I do notice these feelings and thoughts I catch myself day dreaming about these thoughts as well. I am able to catch myself but it comes back. I know that it is not productive thought and it does leave me tired. I do recognize my inner consideration - I don't want to recognize it I want it to not happen. I feel that if I can do away with or get a better handle on internal considering then that will be a big step in the work for me.

Hildegarda - example.

Lets say that my partner promissed me that they wouldn't have another sip of an alcoholic drink. They are good on this promise for a few months I don’t see it when it is just me and my partner there is no drinking. But when my partner has their friends over she says to me (in front of her friends)...I am going to have a drink and then does...At the time I want to say "No way you made a promise to me. i sacrifice so much for you and our relationship I keep my promises and now that your friends are around you want to go against me to do something with them break a promise." This is what I want to say but that is confrontation and puts my partner down in front of her friends." So instead I take a breath and say "do what you want" Then later if Im in bed or daydreaming the situation comes back in my mind and I say how could she do that why would she do this is this always going to happen. I wouldn’t do something I promised her that I wouldn’t do just bc my friends are around I also look at the person that disrespected me or did something I didn't like. If it is a stranger of an acquaintance then I don’t care but if it is someone close who I have respected and been giving to then i feel like I am being taken advantage of ." If I feel I am being taken advantage of or disrespected then internal consideration pops up.

 

[Gertrudes]

Lets say that my partner promissed me that they wouldn't have another sip of an alcoholic drink. They are good on this promise for a few months I don’t see it when it is just me and my partner there is no drinking. But when my partner has their friends over she says to me (in front of her friends)...I am going to have a drink and then does...At the time I want to say "No way you made a promise to me. i sacrifice so much for you and our relationship I keep my promises and now that your friends are around you want to go against me to do something with them break a promise." This is what I want to say but that is confrontation and puts my partner down in front of her friends." So instead I take a breath and say "do what you want" Then later if Im in bed or daydreaming the situation comes back in my mind and I say how could she do that why would she do this is this always going to happen. I wouldn’t do something I promised her that I wouldn’t do just bc my friends are around I also look at the person that disrespected me or did something I didn't like. If it is a stranger of an acquaintance then I don’t care but if it is someone close who I have respected and been giving to then i feel like I am being taken advantage of ." If I feel I am being taken advantage of or disrespected then internal consideration pops up.

Menna,
Not saying anything when not appropriate doesn't necessarily mean that we can't, later and in private, discuss it. In many cases, particularly between couples, we have to wait for a more private moment in order to discuss problematic matters. Eventually discussing them is absolutely crucial though, it helps to keep the relationship clear and clean for both parties, and avoid second guessing. In this particular situation, did you actually talk with your partner afterwards?

Another thing to consider is that there's a difference between internal considering and rightfully feeling disrespected when we're abused in some way. Your partner broke a commitment, and in that sense it is understandable for you to feel disrespected, which is different, but not exclusive of, internal considering. I'm not sure of how her commitment came about though, as this can also shed a different light in the whole situation.

 

[Aaron r]

Maybe the actions are the person being true to themself rather than disrespecting you.

 

[go2]

External Consideration. If an event happens or someone says something that I don't like sometimes I hold my tongue because I know that if I speak up or say something or point out another persons faults or what I didnt like about what they did it will hurt their feelings. I feel good in the moment when I spare them the hurt but then later when I go home I think about what has happened and then an emotion builds in me that makes it harder to think the event or what the person said clogs my mind. I then examin what happened and why that person did what they did and what could that mean? why did they do this? and so on. It is worse with the person or people closest to me. I don't want to hurt them so I wont react or say what I feel but then later on when I am alone I think about what happened. Ask myself why would they say or do that if they are thinking about or are considering me. My mind starts to obsess and ask questions. Can I live with this person? or be with that person if they are going to continue to make decisions like this or talk that way to me?

Any advice on how to better use this practice

As I understand the concept internal consideration and external consideration, you are observing and describing internal consideration. You have turned your attention toward yourself and identified with your feelings and your thoughts. This is our self-importance.

It is the objective to shine the light of attention on the inner world, as a first step to change self.

A next step is to put self in an other person's shoes. We imagine we are the other person, with that person's life experience, expectations, and dreams. Then, we look at self as the other person sees us. This practice can be a powerful tool, seeing self from a different angle. Knowing self is a step toward the possibility of real change of self and its behavior.

I want to tell a short personal story illustrating external consideration and the power to change self..... The woman in my life would not speak to me, because I drank too much. So, I set up an imaginary conversation with her on the back deck. I would say my lines and then get up and go around the deck table, sit in her empty chair, and speak her lines across the table from (go2). I became her and saw self. Her point-of-view of (go2) was such a shock, that I quit drinking, let her go, and began the effort to change the self-important pathetic man I had seen across the table that afternoon. Only much later did I realize that was External Consideration. It is a powerful tool of self-development, as we must know self, before we can change self.

So, external consideration is not directly about judging or changing behavior towards others, although that is the indirect result of seeing self as it appears to another person.

 

[Menna]

aaron r - Honoring a commitment is also being true to yourself. I don't know what it is when you are not true to yourself to be true to yourself I think that is just doing what you want at that point.

Gertrudes - Yes later on i said you made a commitment to me to not drink I emotionaly shut down when you drink it hurts me because you made a promise.

I think I might externaly consider when I am rightfully being disrespected and that is when inner consideration comes up...Maybe im not sure...If I feel I have been wronged or something happens that I know I don't like that is when I try and externaly consider I might have to be more discerning in this and stand up for myself more.

 

[Jones]

Menna, I don’t know if this will help or not. But I do something similar to you. There is a particular instance where I’ve had a bit of a shift recently and perhaps there is something in it for you.

We had my stepson move back in with us recently because we found him some work (involving a cross country move for him). He has a computer gaming addiction and places his own entertainment over and above everything else which essentially means he is very lazy around the house/helping out with chores and generally taking responisibility for anything, including himself.
Despite all that we were doing to help him out, he would still by any means available to him avoid helping. I would get angry at him, but not say anything in order to not upset my partner who is still having a hard time seeing some of his behaviours for what they are, even though she is making some head way with this. She is a mum who believes that she can fix him by bombing him with love, and rescuing him from the consequences of his actions or inactions. The result of which was that she was frequently defending him or making excuses for him.

One night, I’d totally had enough. After spending half a day helping him out with paperwork issues involving his move, he announced that he was going to bed (which basically means he’s going to play games on his phone) without helping out to clean up after dinner. I had to release the anger so I went and got into the shower and started ranting at him. I didn’t hold back and called him every vile name under the sun, under my breath so as not to disturb those that were sleeping.

A curious thing happened. There is a particular pressure in my solar plexus when I am bottling anger sometimes. As I ranted this pressure moved to my chest and as the pressure moved I found that I was no longer ranting at my stepson, but I was ranting at a different boy from long ago in my past when I was probably around seven years old and the adult who should have acted to prevent this situation from unfolding. Its not that I’d forgotten this situation either, its more that there was a level on which I hadn’t connected it to an emotional charge if that makes sense. While the circumstances of that long ago episode were different, there was the same sense of injustice that I was ranting at. But at the same time, I was also ranting at myself...there was a recognition of the ways that I had created similar injustices for others both through ignorance and lack of external consideration.

Since then, although I can still get angry at my stepson, the anger doesn’t hold the same intensity of charge over me. It is there in the moment and then gone, it doesn’t seem to carry over in my mind for later consideration. Also, I feel that I am more likely to be able to actually say whats on my mind in the moment without worrying that the old bottled anger behind my words will be uncontrollable and lead to me saying things that I might later regret, like I can now state my case and do my best to be externally considerate of my partner at the same time. Or in other words, I’m not so totally consumed by the anger and at the same time trying to control it, like my focus is not intensified on that point, but is broader and can take more into consideration before I speak. Also there is no expectation that my words will change him, that he will be what he will be until he decides that he will be something different.

I believe that perhaps for the first time I felt love for him despite his self centredness but at the same time more comfortable in my own skin about setting my own boundaries about how I will allow him to affect me.

In fact he recently moved out into his own flat and we both laughed about the fact that I wouldn’t miss living with him. Our relationship is now more honest and accepting.

Having said all of the above, its a growth process and I wouldn’t say that I can’t slip back into the old pattern just yet. But I do really like the sense of internal liberation that I’ve felt in regards to this situation.

 

[Aaron r]

Maybe not drinking is what you want not what she wants.

 

[agni]

Hi Menna,

I am far from being an expert on this matter, but I think you either accept the person for who they are, or you do not. It all comes down to that. You are not responsible for the actions of others, you are only responsible for yours, along with the choices you make.

You seemed to be aware about the drinking issues of other person, you chose to be partners with the person knowing that.

"No way you made a promise to me. i sacrifice so much for you and our relationship I keep my promises and now that your friends are around you want to go against me to do something with them break a promise."

This just comes across as controlling and selfish, and manipulative through guilt tripping.

aaron r - Honoring a commitment is also being true to yourself. I don't know what it is when you are not true to yourself to be true to yourself I think that is just doing what you want at that point.

I think you are trying to justify the situation. You can only speak for yourself, what is true to yourself and what is not. For other person it well can be not honoring commitments and drinking, as being true to self. You are not responsible for the choices others make.

FWIW.

 

[Beau]

Lets say that my partner promissed me that they wouldn't have another sip of an alcoholic drink. They are good on this promise for a few months I don’t see it when it is just me and my partner there is no drinking. But when my partner has their friends over she says to me (in front of her friends)...I am going to have a drink and then does...At the time I want to say "No way you made a promise to me. i sacrifice so much for you and our relationship I keep my promises and now that your friends are around you want to go against me to do something with them break a promise." This is what I want to say but that is confrontation and puts my partner down in front of her friends." So instead I take a breath and say "do what you want" Then later if Im in bed or daydreaming the situation comes back in my mind and I say how could she do that why would she do this is this always going to happen. I wouldn’t do something I promised her that I wouldn’t do just bc my friends are around I also look at the person that disrespected me or did something I didn't like. If it is a stranger of an acquaintance then I don’t care but if it is someone close who I have respected and been giving to then i feel like I am being taken advantage of ." If I feel I am being taken advantage of or disrespected then internal consideration pops up.

Here's my 2 cents. You entered a relationship with someone not "in the Work". She is not working to become an awake and aware individual who considers others in their actions daily. Due to that, she is merely doing what any mechanical person does, one "I" says that she won't drink anymore, another "I" decides to have a drink when company arrives. This is par for the course in this world. You are not in a relationship with someone in the Work, so you can't have expectations that they will act anything but how a machine acts. Yes, you would not do things the way she does. But projecting your inner state onto her isn't very considerate either, is it? In a situation like this, communication is very important. It's good you do not call her out in front of her friends, but I don't see why you can't bring the topic up later for discussion, after your company leaves or the next day. At least you are making it known to her how her behavior affects you. But I don't think it does you any good to hold it in and stew on it. That isn't healthy and can lead to misdirected aggression on your part, holding a grudge for her "disrespect". It's not disrespect or her taking advantage of you, but a case of her being mechanical and the easy ability to fall back into old habits around friends and forget her pledge because of lack of awareness.

I don't think it's a situation where you want to rake her over the coals because of it though. I think a simple question would be sufficient, like "Why did you drink when you promised me you wouldn't?". If you have sincere questions about her actions, why not air them out instead of holding it inside, bottling it up until it bursts out? It doesn't do you any good to stew and project all these desires and motivations onto her that may have no relevance at all to the true issues. Like any relationship, communication is vital and it's hurting both you and her when you don't talk to her about how you're feeling.

 

[Gertrudes]

aaron r - Honoring a commitment is also being true to yourself. I don't know what it is when you are not true to yourself to be true to yourself I think that is just doing what you want at that point.

Gertrudes - Yes later on i said you made a commitment to me to not drink I emotionaly shut down when you drink it hurts me because you made a promise.

I think I might externaly consider when I am rightfully being disrespected and that is when inner consideration comes up...Maybe im not sure...If I feel I have been wronged or something happens that I know I don't like that is when I try and externaly consider I might have to be more discerning in this and stand up for myself more.

Menna, after reading everyone else's responses something that had sort of passed me by became clearer to me, as a couple you are greatly affected by each others behavior and, in that sense, each party tends to gradually adapt his/her own behavior accordingly, for the better functioning as the couple as a unit. However, was committing to not drinking really her decision? Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't, because what you can expect from an induced/forced commitment, or from an heartfelt commitment are two entirely different results, not to mention the whole underlying dynamic.

I apologise for having led you astray with the last comment on my previous post about rightfully feeling disrespected :( which wasn't appropriate at all.

 

[Drazen]

You're attaching yourself to her promises and when it turns out that she is breaking them you are left disappointed. You are disappointed because you have your subjective beliefs and expectations of what is "right" or "wrong" which are not based on objectivity and can't let you truly and objectively discern. You wrote on forum already that she started smoking again behind your back and you were disappointed also like now, very similar situation.

You need different approach, but not on the same basis with all your prejudices of how she should behave to fill out your certain expectations. Maybe you need to let her BE who she is. Learn about yourself and review all your actions toward her or anyone else and try to SEE what 'dramas' are you playing and what is cause of your actions and also actions of others, but do this without prejudices. Step out from 'drama' and observe.