Must not be doing it right

[Peam]

Lets say that my partner promissed me that they wouldn't have another sip of an alcoholic drink.

Is this the same partner who you wrote about two months ago who promised you they wouldn't smoke again, then you found out she was still smoking?

It sounds like the same scenario. It looks to me like you could be trying to mold her into your ideal partner. Maybe not in an outright conscious way though. She knows you don't like smoking and don't like drinking, so to try to please you she says she's giving them up.

Maybe she genuinely tried to give them up for a while, but didn't have the will power to keep it up, but so as not to upset you she only smoked and drank when you weren’t there. But her will power to not drink while you are with her, doesn't seem to extend to being in the presence of her friends drinking and her not drinking.

I don't know the answer to your problem other than either accept her for who she is or let her go and find a non smoker/drinker.

 

[larsman]

Is external consideration a practice such as sitting?

How do we create the depth of being against which the rest of one's life can be discerned?

 

[webglider]

Quote by Joe Larson:

Is external consideration a practice such as sitting?

I think that external consideration takes a great deal of mastery over one's emotions, mechanical thinking and automatic reactions. It's a life's work.

quote from Joe Larson;

How do we create the depth of being against which the rest of one's life can be discerned?

Do you mean how do we reach a level from which we can objectively evaluate the growth of our being from one point to another? I'm nowhere at the level of being able to answer that question.

However, I think that maybe some of the criteria is below in the definitions descriptions and application of internal and external consideration.

Quote by Cassiopaea Glossary:

In 4th Way parlance, this is the practice of taking others into account when acting. External considering involves making a realistic evaluation of another's situation and acting in ways which take this into account in a positive sense.

External considering is however not the same thing as being socially polite or considerate, although it may be expressed in this manner.

The key concept is to be aware of and to adapt oneself to the level of being and knowledge of others. Thus, external considering involves for example not talking about things which would simply offend others' beliefs or simply not be understood. External considering relates to an idea of general good will towards the environment, then in the sense of letting the environment be as it wishes and responding to its requests in a manner that honors its right to be as it will.

External considering is rooted in objective awareness of the environment. Its opposite, internal considering, is rooted in attachment to a subjective inner state, to one's own comfort of preconceptions or desires.

External and internal considering are not always outwardly distinguishable, although inwardly they are fundamentally different. One may for example be socially pleasing purely in order to reinforce one's own idea of oneself as a 'good person.' This is internal considering and preoccupation about how others/the self perceive the self.

In some cases, external considering may involve withholding information that is seen as inappropriate, dangerous or simply unlikely to be well received. An internally considering person may also do this, but then again the motive is different.

We cannot codify with external criteria which action constitutes which kind of considering. The concepts are related to service to others vs service to self and to objectivity vs subjectivity. Usually the term considering is applied in the context of personal interactions.

Only through having external considering can one serve others. This requires responsiveness and a sense of objectivity and awareness of what is right action for the given situation. Serving in the sense of merely carrying out commands is not external considering.

Internal considering can be likened to man's inner predator. It feeds itself by engaging in subjective fantasies where it thinks it is other than it is. It will also seek to gain external confirmation for its distorted self-image by manipulating others to confirm it in its views. Man may go to much trouble to make an impression, simply in order to have his own illusory, internally considered self-image reflected back to himself from others. All success in such manipulation feeds the predator and confirms it in its internal considering and accordingly removes the center of gravity of man's inner life away from objectivity. Internal considering is in very concrete terms man's natural enemy who seeks to prevent man from being himself. The predator will at all times prefer an illusion of virtue to the naked truth about itself. Still, it is not useful to morally judge or condemn the predator, just like it is useless to condemn a cat for eating mice. Still, one must disengage from identifying with this predator. Claiming to Work while engaging in internal considering is a contradiction in terms. The forms of internal considering can however be extremely subtle and one cannot always detect them, thus constant vigilance is required. The predator of internal considering may well claim to engage in merciless self-observation, to aspire to consciousness and being and any other virtues and even trick itself to believe it is progressing towards these goals while all the while only feeding its vanity and desire for recognition.

Exterior man needs the support of a group in order to help him detect the many tricky ways in which internal considering inserts itself in his perception and actions.

See Third Force, Objectivity, Predator's Mind
[ return ]

 

[Gonzo]

I find it interesting to see the difference between your initial post in this thread, asking for advice on external considering and the substance of the matter behind your inquiry - feeling somehow hurt because your partner chose to drink with friends after attempting to quit.

This indicates to me that you felt right in your wounding and were merely asking for help in how to deal with the resulting impulses and thoughts. But it never entered your mind that you might not be right about the wounding.

This is perfectly natural for someone starting the Work. As you proceed in the Work, you will start looking at the deeper layers instead of the superficial ones. You had ample opportunity to do so with the apparent smoking betrayal and now you are being given another opportunity with the apparent drinking betrayal.

This is about you, always. It is rarely about someone else. Your lessons are to be learned from your interaction with others, who will provoke responses in you for you to examine and learn from.

Perhaps somewhere in your childhood, either someone was making promises and not living up to them or was accusing you of the same. Does this ring true at all for you?

People around you will continue to provide you opportunities to observe your mechanical, reactive thoughts and feelings. If everyone lived up to your hugh expectations, you'd have little opportunity to grow and would stagnate in your illusion of a perfect world.

I'm not saying you don't have challenges in your relationship, but I think you play a role that makes things difficult for the other person.

When you are a team, it is fair to ask each other to make certain modifications that would benefit the whole and each member has a responsibility to ensure they avoid agreeing to demands that are unfair or would compromise the self. However, this level of mutual cooperation can only work to the degree that each member's machine is clean. I have no idea what your partner is like, but I do feel, from both this and the smoking thread, that you have certain hangups about people living up to their word and offer little understanding if they slip.

You definitely need to communicate your expectations with your partner as much as you need to communicate if something she does has a detrimental effect on you. But I think you need to get a little more real about your expectations and the reasons behind them

FWIW,
Gonzo

 

[Menna]

Ok so to be 100% truthful I changed the example from smoking to drinking bc I already posted about smoking in the other thread and I wanted to use a different example. To be honest this is the only hangup I have in the relationship. Yes we have other issues but who doesn't. Im not sure if I can accept smoking just bc. I emotionaly shut down when she smokes (I communicated this to her). Her grandma died of cancer, her mom died of cancer and her dads sister died of cancer. On our 4th date she told me it was a bad habbit and she was going to quit. Its not healthy for me and it stinks (again I am talking about toxic cigs) - Again sorry for leading you guys astray - I just didnt want a repetitive thing and kind of embarrised that I cant get over this myself. again I apologize. I do realize that this provides me with some work to be done.

Yes accept her for her or move on I know. Im not sure if I can and I feel horrible about it.

 

[Gonzo]

Well, now this is a great place to start from. Since you were deceptive, you did the very thing you accuse your partner of. This demonstrates you have a set of rules for others and one for yourself.

Somehow, you can empathize with yourself to justify breaking your rules but you cannot do the same for the person closest to you.

You have invested more energy in beating around the bush than it would have taken to get you well on your way working backward to find where these programs came from.

Your program about the ills of smoking is so deep that you distrust this forum in its supportive stance on smoking organic, additive-free tobacco, and yet you trust this forum enough to seek advice. Is it that you feel this forum is only partially right, where we're wrong on tobacco but possibly right on internal considering?

Lots of evidence has been amassed for you to wade through to come to your own conclusions about smoking. Have you read it all? If you had, I would have expected you to experience a serious conflict between your beliefs and the objective facts, resulting in a distrust of conventional wisdom and other sources that fed your beliefs.

So, will you challenge your beliefs, consider they might be wrong, dare to review the scientific facts or do you want to stay in the comfort of your illusions?

Don't get me wrong, I understand how difficult this can be and how complex our thought and feelings are, but they won't change if we keep them locked in place.

Gonzo

 

[Buddy]

Ok so to be 100% truthful I changed the example from smoking to drinking bc I already posted about smoking in the other thread and I wanted to use a different example. To be honest this is the only hangup I have in the relationship. Yes we have other issues but who doesn't. Im not sure if I can accept smoking just bc. I emotionaly shut down when she smokes (I communicated this to her). Her grandma died of cancer, her mom died of cancer and her dads sister died of cancer. On our 4th date she told me it was a bad habbit and she was going to quit. Its not healthy for me and it stinks (again I am talking about toxic cigs) - Again sorry for leading you guys astray - I just didnt want a repetitive thing and kind of embarrised that I cant get over this myself. again I apologize. I do realize that this provides me with some work to be done.

Yes accept her for her or move on I know. Im not sure if I can and I feel horrible about it.

Hi Menna. I know what you mean by feeling embarrassed about not being able to get over something yourself but I think we're all in the same boat here, so chin up and welcome to the Club de Less-Than-Perfect.

Might as well face it full on: girlfriend wants to smoke and it's ultimately her life to do with as she pleases. I know you know that but do you really feel it?

As hard as it may be to believe ATM, this may be simpler than it looks. Here comes a maybe clue:

If I feel I am being taken advantage of or disrespected then internal consideration pops up.

Since we are talking about smoking and not something being done 'at' you, like trying to run you down with a ballistic missile or whatnot, I'd say that by the time you feel what you describe, internal considering has already been done. In this case, those feelings are likely the felt "results" from your personal "values" having been weighed. Remember how fast the feeling center works?

Maybe the actions are the person being true to themself rather than disrespecting you.

I like that. I think she may be making a mistake to promise anyone she won't smoke if she wants to smoke. Menna, I didn't really understand your response to that.

Personally, I think what would be better to Work on is figuring out why you won't let her "screen herself on out of your life" if she wants to do so. Are you codependent? Is that an 'inappropriate' question? :)

 

[Approaching Infinity]

Maybe the actions are the person being true to themself rather than disrespecting you.

I like that. I think she may be making a mistake to promise anyone she won't smoke if she wants to smoke.

Personally, I've encountered a lot of smokers who buy into the propaganda that they're going to die as a result and "really should quit". It's a sad situation, kind of like seeing a person struggling to eat a low-fat diet because they think they'll have a heart attack otherwise. In the case of smoking, there's a lot of cognitive dissonance involved and a whole lot of unnecessary guilt, especially from family members and friends who "only want the best" for them (or for themselves, in some cases). They know the "should" quit, but can't. So what to do?

Well, what I've done with those friends of mine who fall into this category is pretty simple. I tell them a few things, if they're willing to listen. One, I talk about the kind of research we've done here. That is, just like the low-fat thing, the "smoking causes disease" thing is largely a result of clever statistics. There's no causal relationship that has been experimentally proven. And even if smoking DOES have a causal role in certain diseases in certain individuals, it would be a relatively tiny one. And then there's the fact that it is largely DIET that plays a causal role in the "diseases of civilization". As that one study that Allan and Lutz quote showed, the smokers who ate a high-fat diet had LESS disease than the non-smoking low-fat dieters. So, if you feel like you just can't quit: 1) there's no reason to feel guilty! and to help you NOT feel guilty, 2) you can always take care of your health by EATING right, and taking the precaution of smoking high-quality tobacco.

Menna, since you've brought up internal considering, let me suggest that by doing so, and not considering your girlfriend, you are only causing her more distress over an issue that is already distressing enough as it is. Why not try making it a goal, in the pursuit of external consideration, to figure out how to make life easier FOR HER, and not for yourself?

 

[SeekinTruth]

Excellent summary, Approaching Infinity. Couldn't have put it better. All neat and in a nutshell. :)

By the way, reading this thread, the whole time I had the suspicion that the alcohol story was a ruse and it was still about her smoking issue.

 

[larsman]

I think that external consideration takes a great deal of mastery over one's emotions, mechanical thinking and automatic reactions. It's a life's work.

Do you mean how do we reach a level from which we can objectively evaluate the growth of our being from one point to another? I'm nowhere at the level of being able to answer that question.

What does that mean, mastery over one's emotions? Perhaps Shoma Morita was right; we are not responsible for how we feel nor are we responsible for how others feel, but we are responsible for how we behave. It's reminiscent of Gurdjieff's comments about manifestations. What is the difference, this shift, from inner to outer? From how we feel to how we behave?

Is the point of work on oneself to objectively evaluate the growth of our being? Or is it, more to the point, to deepen one's capacity to observe?

 

[Ben]

Have you suggested to her the benefit of changing from 'toxic cigs' to pure, organic tobacco. Are you not yourself convinced of the potential benefits or at least that this would be an improvement?

 

[Buddy]

Excellent summary, Approaching Infinity. Couldn't have put it better. All neat and in a nutshell. :)

Yes, thanks for drawing that distinction AI. I forgot that there is understood to be a healthier way to smoke.

 

[webglider]

quote from Joe Larson:

What does that mean, mastery over one's emotions?

I think it means that we don't take our frustrations out on others no matter how we feel. At least this is what it means to me, and I could be wrong. I also think it also means that we don't try to bend another person into the image of how they should be in order to make our lives more comfortable.

This is my work right now. I'm finding that the more that I identify and take responsibility for my own needs, the less I need other people to fulfill my needs for me.

This insight came to me after I attended an event I really didn't want to go to. After it was over, I made a list of the needs I had had and emotions I had felt before I attended. In all, I went into that experience with eleven unmet needs! I also was feeling twenty two negative emotions before I even set foot in the door. Here is a partial list: tense, apprehensive, irritated, angry, confused, rattled, embarrassed, rattled, tired, tense, overwhelmed, vulnerable...

Obviously, I did not have a good time, and I wasn't as considerate to others as I would have liked because my own needs were not being met as, at the time, I didn't even know what they were!

So now, at the beginning of the day, or even the night before I take inventory of my needs and emotions and the context in which they occurred. Then I'll try to come up with a plan for the next day on how to manage all of these needs and emotions so that they don't burden others.

quote from Joe Larson:

Is the point of work on oneself to objectively evaluate the growth of our being? Or is it, more to the point, to deepen one's capacity to observe?

Deepening one's capacity to observe objectively, would, I think, aid greatly in the evaluation of the growth of our being by comparing oneself in terms of before and after the commencement of such work. Again, this is just my take on things. I could be wrong.

 

[Gonzo]

Hi Joe Larson,

Regarding emotional mastery, just to add to Webglider's thoughts...

I'm sure you've met people who let their emotions run wild. Emotional mastery would be the opposite.

Ultimately one needs to master one's emotions to endure they are proportional to an objective reality.
Although emotions are a natural part of being human, most of us experience emotions disproportionate to a given situation die to early trauma and social programming. Since emotions impair reasoning, this can be a serious drawback.

Until we have cleaned our machine and experience emotions as a more organic experience, what we actually experience is a mechanical response.

This mastery is the result of self observation, tracing back to original trauma and eventually healing the wounds. Once the machine is clean, then the emotions belong to the authentic self, instead of belonging to any of the several "I's" that we have developed and mistake for our true selves.

Gonzo

 

[Gertrudes]

When you are a team, it is fair to ask each other to make certain modifications that would benefit the whole and each member has a responsibility to ensure they avoid agreeing to demands that are unfair or would compromise the self. However, this level of mutual cooperation can only work to the degree that each member's machine is clean. I have no idea what your partner is like, but I do feel, from both this and the smoking thread, that you have certain hangups about people living up to their word and offer little understanding if they slip.

Well put.
Having thought of it further, and adding to Gonzo's thoughts, I also think that agreeing to something that concerns the other partie or both parties of the couple is not exactly the same as agreeing to something that concerns herself and herself only. Leaving the vast research on smoking found on the forum aside for a moment, if the smell of tobacco bothers you so much Menna, why not ask her not to smoke around you, instead of expecting for her not to smoke at all? Her smoking concerns herself, not you.

You feeling upset doesn't seem to make much sense, firstly because her smoking is her choice and not of anyone else's business, (and the same for drinking for that matter). Secondly, can someone really make a commitment about her own life choices to another? And would that really be in her own best interests, or the other's interests? I would say that if a real commitment of this nature were to happen, it would have to be between her and her own self. Making an agreement of this nature with someone else (note that this is different from making an agreement with one self having another as a witness) implies expectations and wants from that external person. This can only lead to an illusory commitment rooted on a sand castle, and inevitably doomed to failure and pain for both.

Again, I'm very sorry for contradicting my first comment on feeling disrespected which was downright ignorant. (I trust someone will call me out if I keep messing up with this one). In any case, similarly to you Menna, I got caught up in the commitment thing and became oblivious to the bigger picture. Something for me to think about deeply, and I have to thank you for this thread.

Edit: changed sentence for clarity