NeuroFeedback, NeurOptimal and Electroencephalography

[987baz]

Thanks for the info, very interesting thread.

I got a copy The Open-Focus Brain on Kindle for like $3, will order the other ones suggested too. The meditation I do (Dispenza) starts with open focus so it will be interesting to see the correlations.

I checked out a NF place where I am online, they do the QEEG, but it appears to be pretty pricey, is this standard? (prices in Australian dollars)

Initial Consultation $195.00

QEEG Brain Scan $295.00

QEEG Written Report (Optional) $150.00

Standard Appointment $85.00

 

[nicklebleu]

I had a difficult childbirth. My mother says that I cried all the time during the first year of my life. After that period I became much more peaceful child, but it's possible that some parts of my brain never calmed down. They did an EEG on me when I was a baby and they determined that my brain functioned normally, but they probably didn't have experts like these NF practitioners that we are talking about here. The attachment theory that NF practitioners use as an explanation for their work is also something very interesting, and it seems to me that it explains many things that other psychological theories can't.

An EEG and QEEG are two entirely different things. EEG is most useful to diagnose epilepsy. QEEG takes the raw EEG signal and this signal is then statistically processed and compared to a “normative” databse, so that the end-picture tells you where your own brain is underactive and where it is overactive compared to the “norm”.

For more information see here and for a graphic representation of the results see here.

 

[nicklebleu]

Thanks for the info, very interesting thread.

I got a copy The Open-Focus Brain on Kindle for like $3, will order the other ones suggested too. The meditation I do (Dispenza) starts with open focus so it will be interesting to see the correlations.

I checked out a NF place where I am online, they do the QEEG, but it appears to be pretty pricey, is this standard? (prices in Australian dollars)

Initial Consultation $195.00

QEEG Brain Scan $295.00

QEEG Written Report (Optional) $150.00

Standard Appointment $85.00

If the guy is good, it is very reasonable.

 

[Laura]

In respect of Neurofeedback training, I think that peeps should get and read "Healing Developmental Trauma" by Heller and Lapierre. I have just about finished it and WHAT a REVELATION. I posted about it in two other threads where it was mentioned:

https://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,45226.msg747485.html#msg747485
https://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,44868.msg747484.html#msg747484

... in hopes that more forum peeps will get and read this one!!!

I think that the information in this book (which combines a lot of things we already know and discuss, including Porges' "Polyvagal Theory") combined with The Work, AND Neurofeedback training, can be great assets to our toolkit for working on ourselves to become fully functional human beings with the potential to go beyond. It really can become a "Fourth Way" in every sense of the term. (And, of course, tending to the body via diet is also important, as we have found.)

So, peeps, get and read this book. It describes five types of survival strategies, i.e. false personalities, and maybe you can recognize yourself and better understand how to go forward, how to change the future by healing the past which can only be done IN the NOW.

 

[Alana]

In light of reading Anatomy of Violence by Adrian Raine, I've decided to look more into neurofeedback and some of the methods by which it is implemented in clinical settings.

I was also intrigued and consulted a neuropsychologist who specializes in neurofeedback.

I was also amazed by the results that neurofeedback produced for the young man in Raine's book, so I have been trying to learn more about it since. I've read webpages (but don't have the book yet) and watched videos. There is a lot of information available on the Neuroptimal method, which seems to be a way for the brain to adjust itself, instead of involving outside stimulation/interference. And I also focused on Neuroptimal, because as nature mentioned, it seems to be the method most available in the regions in France I did my search on.

The website of the Association pour la Diffusion du Neurofeedback en France,
https://www.adnf.org/neurofeedback_welcome.htm

has a directory with the practitioners world-wide (Neuroptimal method), with options for renting or buying new/second hand equipment.

From their directory I found many practitioners near by, some who replied that they speak english too, among them this practitioner (Her webpage: http://www.neurofeedbackhautegaronne31.fr/430217848) that, along with Neuroptimal, she uses another method, something called BioGraph Infiniti ProComp2. I tried finding more information on this other method, but can only find webpages about the equipment, like this one: http://www.lifematters.com/procomp2_infiniti.asp

I wrote to her and asked her for more info and what is the difference between neuroptimal and BioGraph Infiniti ProComp2, and she replied with, "Neuroptimal metode is more globale that other. It s not for the same think but i explain to you when you go." So, not much help here, unless I drive about an hour to find out.

The other day, from the International Society for Neurofeedback and Research website

https://www.isnr.org/member-list

I found this practitioner down at the Mediterranean coast:

http://www.neuroptimum.com/

they offer training for becoming a neurofeedback practitioner, treatment sessions, and also sell the equipment for doing neurofeedback at home. He is American and speaks English, so I wrote him also last night to get more information on the selling of the equipment and whether there is also the possibility for renting it. He hasn’t gotten back to me yet.

And these are some webpages that have information about different Neurofeedback methods:

- This one is about the Othmer Method, which has practitioners in some countries like US, Canada, Mexico, Russia, etc (see their directory here), but not in Europe.

- Neurofeedback: One Method Does Not Fit All This one is written by Dr. Diane Roberts Stoler, a neuropsychologist and author of the book, The Resilient Brain. And here's more info from her webpage.

- The Neuroptimal official website.

Nevertheless, I was told that any effort to activate my prefrontal cortex from my current state would not work due to the hyperactive brain stem region.

I was explained that attention doesn't begin in the prefrontal cortex, it begins in the brain stem. And that if I wanted more attention, "I needed to give each brain region its due". My brain stem should be more "animal" and less "human" if I'm to have a more human cortex (i.e. active prefrontal cortex). I was explained that all the attention research is taught wrongly, or at least it is commonly misunderstood. It is not only that there is lack of attention due to low prefrontal cortex activity, it is low attention potential because the brain stem is not working properly. It surely is much more complex than this, with researchers describing several types of attention and so forth. But basically, attention starts in the brain stem.

I think that this is the case. The older parts of the brain, have been evolving for way way longer and are extremely more efficient and are in total control of physiological and psychological processess that we don't even have to think about to perform. I remember in one of Peterson's Personality lectures, where he mentioned the error of modern scientists considering the cortex the most powerful part of the brain and the one we should focus on. He said something that went like: in a fight between the hypothalamus and the cortex, the hypothalamus would always win, it has way more and way stronger connections than the cortex. The newly evolved parts of the brain can be in charge only when nothing interferes with the older parts. So, if we are hungry, cold, stressed, etc, the parts of the brain stem will automatically take over, with no consideration of the workings of the cortex. So yes, it makes sense that a healthy, well-functioning brain stem is a prerequisite to a well-functioning cortex.

I am so looking forward to try this out, once I decide how to go about it! (rental, seeing a practitioner, or, I am even considering visiting a practitioner for an evaluation, and then renting the equipment to do it on my own)

(Just saw your post Laura, putting it in the amazon basket!)

 

[seek10]

Thank you for thread. I was also looking for experimenting this NF.

Well, I'm not sure that ADHD is even useful as a label. I doubt that anybody would label me that way, but I have operated my whole life with a background, low-level, constant fear that sometimes increases to debilitating levels. You could say that I'm a serious worrier. And I don't think that is ADHD. And, as far as I've read, it seems that fear is one of the main things that this Neurofeedback deals with/corrects. I could sure use some relief there!!!

In my case, I think it comes from learning/seeing how so many things in the world are constantly riding a fine line of disaster (economic, power plants, weather- [the recent snow storm causing tons of issues where I live], and so on).

Honestly, it's a miracle that things don't fail more often, and honestly I cannot feel comfortable with that while so many don't seem to mind. It's something that I've always had a problem with, whether it makes me become very involved in trying to fix such problems (at work for example), or puts me in an apathetic state, killing motivation.

Fear and worry is part of my problem too, that is always there since childhood. It is more in the line of PCS ( perfection, control and shame) mode. occasional recollecting helps to see what thoughts triggering what programs and chemicals, I fail to do it daily basis for better result.

Honestly, it's a miracle that things don't fail more often, and honestly I cannot feel comfortable with that while so many don't seem to mind. It's something that I've always had a problem with, whether it makes me become very involved in trying to fix such problems (at work for example), or puts me in an apathetic state, killing motivation.

I had same feeling related to work. Some times we wonder "how the heck this company function at all". But we see how other companies work, it feels our one is not that bad. some times, It was triggered by valid emotions of "anger" being put on the spot unfairly (blame game) and program that feels bad to say "No", thought that "Why can't I fix it as much as can" to avoid repeat incidents, knowing it may not completely change things. This conflict produces disassociation. It is like dealing with "petty tyrants". Some times, I feel it is like "self importance" that draining. Some times, I find my self identifying with a tree and fail to accept the reality that we can't change others, even it meant, they come back hitting us. Probably this what identification means.

So, I went and signed up for a month rental of the NeurOptimal system and look forward to see if this can reset this underlying anxiety about things in general.

I looked at this own, but have some question. You might have answers to this. Based on the Sebern F. Fisher's book " Neurofeedback in the Treatment of Developmental Trauma", therapist knows what we need to improve, what areas to focus on, how to set the sensors and adjust the software for this. With this NueroOptimal system, they send us the hardware and software for us to follow instructions. Not sure we have a expertise to do ourself. Probably, the local group you mentioned have some help. I want to try it before I commit for month worth of rental. Based on that I want to try for my kid. I want to call you to gather more information on this.

I also got the kindle/epub version of Open-Focus and will try those exercises too.

This book looks interesting. I will take a look at this.

 

[Hesper]

[snipped]
I think that the information in this book (which combines a lot of things we already know and discuss, including Porges' "Polyvagal Theory") combined with The Work, AND Neurofeedback training, can be great assets to our toolkit for working on ourselves to become fully functional human beings with the potential to go beyond. It really can become a "Fourth Way" in every sense of the term. (And, of course, tending to the body via diet is also important, as we have found.)

So, peeps, get and read this book. It describes five types of survival strategies, i.e. false personalities, and maybe you can recognize yourself and better understand how to go forward, how to change the future by healing the past which can only be done IN the NOW.

I ordered a copy from Amazon. This could promise to be pretty transformative, when combined with everything we've already learned about diet, conscious effort, constantly expanding our awareness, etc.

Thank you!

 

[987baz]

If the guy is good, it is very reasonable.

Thanks Nicklebleu, There's not much of a CV so not sure of the training but here's a link to the website in case you're interested
https://www.perthbraincentre.com.au/services/neurofeedback-therapy/

In respect of Neurofeedback training, I think that peeps should get and read "Healing Developmental Trauma" by Heller and Lapierre. I have just about finished it and WHAT a REVELATION. I posted about it in two other threads where it was mentioned:

https://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,45226.msg747485.html#msg747485
https://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,44868.msg747484.html#msg747484

... in hopes that more forum peeps will get and read this one!!!

I think that the information in this book (which combines a lot of things we already know and discuss, including Porges' "Polyvagal Theory") combined with The Work, AND Neurofeedback training, can be great assets to our toolkit for working on ourselves to become fully functional human beings with the potential to go beyond. It really can become a "Fourth Way" in every sense of the term. (And, of course, tending to the body via diet is also important, as we have found.)

So, peeps, get and read this book. It describes five types of survival strategies, i.e. false personalities, and maybe you can recognize yourself and better understand how to go forward, how to change the future by healing the past which can only be done IN the NOW.

Thanks Laura, I will get onto Healing Developmental Trauma once I have finished Raine and Fallon, unless you think it may be more prudent to go back to them after?

It's on Kindle and audible for those who prefer audio books btw

 

[Arwenn]

I'm intrigued by NeuroFeedback, the trick will be finding someone experienced and in possession of the better technology.

~
I think that the information in this book (which combines a lot of things we already know and discuss, including Porges' "Polyvagal Theory") combined with The Work, AND Neurofeedback training, can be great assets to our toolkit for working on ourselves to become fully functional human beings with the potential to go beyond. It really can become a "Fourth Way" in every sense of the term. (And, of course, tending to the body via diet is also important, as we have found.)

So, peeps, get and read this book. It describes five types of survival strategies, i.e. false personalities, and maybe you can recognize yourself and better understand how to go forward, how to change the future by healing the past which can only be done IN the NOW.

Looks like another interesting read! I've read Fallon, and just about finished Samenow, will post my thoughts on the relevant thread.

 

[Jacques]

In respect of Neurofeedback training, I think that peeps should get and read "Healing Developmental Trauma" by Heller and Lapierre. I have just about finished it and WHAT a REVELATION. I posted about it in two other threads where it was mentioned:

Thanks for the suggestion Laura. I have just bought the kindle version.

The website of the Association pour la Diffusion du Neurofeedback en France,
https://www.adnf.org/neurofeedback_welcome.htm

has a directory with the practitioners world-wide (Neuroptimal method), with options for renting or buying new/second hand equipment.

I am so looking forward to try this out, once I decide how to go about it! (rental, seeing a practitioner, or, I am even considering visiting a practitioner for an evaluation, and then renting the equipment to do it on my own)

(Just saw your post Laura, putting it in the amazon basket!)

Thanks Alana for the info. It seems that there is a practitioner in my area.

So, I might try it eventually.

 

[Gaby]

In respect of Neurofeedback training, I think that peeps should get and read "Healing Developmental Trauma" by Heller and Lapierre. I have just about finished it and WHAT a REVELATION. I posted about it in two other threads where it was mentioned:

https://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,45226.msg747485.html#msg747485
https://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,44868.msg747484.html#msg747484

Got it!

The concept of developmental trauma and how neurofeedback can help heal deeply seated pre-verbal trauma by relying on the brain's plasticity has floored me and made things crystal clear for me in terms of the work ahead of me. It also clarifies for me why I always felt fear-based regardless of what I did or did not do. Sebern Fisher, author of Neurofeedback in the Treatment of Developmental Trauma, explains brain plasticity in terms of modifying electrical waves with direct biofeedback. I think it makes a lot of sense.

Nevertheless, I was told that any effort to activate my prefrontal cortex from my current state would not work due to the hyperactive brain stem region.

I was explained that attention doesn't begin in the prefrontal cortex, it begins in the brain stem. And that if I wanted more attention, "I needed to give each brain region its due". My brain stem should be more "animal" and less "human" if I'm to have a more human cortex (i.e. active prefrontal cortex). I was explained that all the attention research is taught wrongly, or at least it is commonly misunderstood. It is not only that there is lack of attention due to low prefrontal cortex activity, it is low attention potential because the brain stem is not working properly. It surely is much more complex than this, with researchers describing several types of attention and so forth. But basically, attention starts in the brain stem.

I think that this is the case. The older parts of the brain, have been evolving for way way longer and are extremely more efficient and are in total control of physiological and psychological processess that we don't even have to think about to perform. I remember in one of Peterson's Personality lectures, where he mentioned the error of modern scientists considering the cortex the most powerful part of the brain and the one we should focus on. He said something that went like: in a fight between the hypothalamus and the cortex, the hypothalamus would always win, it has way more and way stronger connections than the cortex. The newly evolved parts of the brain can be in charge only when nothing interferes with the older parts. So, if we are hungry, cold, stressed, etc, the parts of the brain stem will automatically take over, with no consideration of the workings of the cortex. So yes, it makes sense that a healthy, well-functioning brain stem is a prerequisite to a well-functioning cortex.

I re-started my NF sessions after a couple of weeks. The therapist told me that there is more research available in pubmed lately portraying the concept above. The activity in the subcortical and brain stem regions where incoming information is processed should be more symmetrical instead of being in fight or flight all the time.

In order to work the brain stem/subcortical region (reticular formation), I was placed music that would only play smooth when the electrical activity was correct. In my last session, the music was never smooth and often, it would be dead quiet. I simply don't know how to get the music to play smoothly. It was easier with the visual NF system during the second session. The therapist seems confident that I can make progress, but he told me point-blank that I have to consider very seriously starting some "exhaustive" physical exercise in order to help me heal the subcortical/brain stem regions. He also insisted on a diet, but I already have that covered. He clarified that we might not schedule more NF sessions until I cover both dietary and exercise aspects.

I'll see what I can arrange in terms of physical activity. During the last year, I dropped my Martial Arts activity down to 10 minutes on days I'm not on night shifts due to my working schedule. Nevertheless, the therapist said that I'll just have to work something out. He was deadly serious. He also used to have the same EEG pattern that I have on the brain stem area, so he seems to have a pretty good idea of the work I need to do.

The other areas that I worked with the visual NF system left me again very focused, aware and calm. Hope to produce the correct brain waves in the brain stem too. Much work ahead of me, but also much hope.

 

[nature]

In light of reading Anatomy of Violence by Adrian Raine, I've decided to look more into neurofeedback and some of the methods by which it is implemented in clinical settings.

I was also intrigued and consulted a neuropsychologist who specializes in neurofeedback.

I was also amazed by the results that neurofeedback produced for the young man in Raine's book, so I have been trying to learn more about it since. I've read webpages (but don't have the book yet) and watched videos. There is a lot of information available on the Neuroptimal method, which seems to be a way for the brain to adjust itself, instead of involving outside stimulation/interference. And I also focused on Neuroptimal, because as nature mentioned, it seems to be the method most available in the regions in France I did my search on.

The website of the Association pour la Diffusion du Neurofeedback en France,
https://www.adnf.org/neurofeedback_welcome.htm

has a directory with the practitioners world-wide (Neuroptimal method), with options for renting or buying new/second hand equipment.

From their directory I found many practitioners near by, some who replied that they speak english too, among them this practitioner (Her webpage: http://www.neurofeedbackhautegaronne31.fr/430217848) that, along with Neuroptimal, she uses another method, something called BioGraph Infiniti ProComp2. I tried finding more information on this other method, but can only find webpages about the equipment, like this one: http://www.lifematters.com/procomp2_infiniti.asp

I wrote to her and asked her for more info and what is the difference between neuroptimal and BioGraph Infiniti ProComp2, and she replied with, "Neuroptimal metode is more globale that other. It s not for the same think but i explain to you when you go." So, not much help here, unless I drive about an hour to find out.

The other day, from the International Society for Neurofeedback and Research website

https://www.isnr.org/member-list

I found this practitioner down at the Mediterranean coast:

http://www.neuroptimum.com/

they offer training for becoming a neurofeedback practitioner, treatment sessions, and also sell the equipment for doing neurofeedback at home. He is American and speaks English, so I wrote him also last night to get more information on the selling of the equipment and whether there is also the possibility for renting it. He hasn’t gotten back to me yet.

And these are some webpages that have information about different Neurofeedback methods:

- This one is about the Othmer Method, which has practitioners in some countries like US, Canada, Mexico, Russia, etc (see their directory here), but not in Europe.

- Neurofeedback: One Method Does Not Fit All This one is written by Dr. Diane Roberts Stoler, a neuropsychologist and author of the book, The Resilient Brain. And here's more info from her webpage.

- The Neuroptimal official website.

Nevertheless, I was told that any effort to activate my prefrontal cortex from my current state would not work due to the hyperactive brain stem region.

I was explained that attention doesn't begin in the prefrontal cortex, it begins in the brain stem. And that if I wanted more attention, "I needed to give each brain region its due". My brain stem should be more "animal" and less "human" if I'm to have a more human cortex (i.e. active prefrontal cortex). I was explained that all the attention research is taught wrongly, or at least it is commonly misunderstood. It is not only that there is lack of attention due to low prefrontal cortex activity, it is low attention potential because the brain stem is not working properly. It surely is much more complex than this, with researchers describing several types of attention and so forth. But basically, attention starts in the brain stem.

I think that this is the case. The older parts of the brain, have been evolving for way way longer and are extremely more efficient and are in total control of physiological and psychological processess that we don't even have to think about to perform. I remember in one of Peterson's Personality lectures, where he mentioned the error of modern scientists considering the cortex the most powerful part of the brain and the one we should focus on. He said something that went like: in a fight between the hypothalamus and the cortex, the hypothalamus would always win, it has way more and way stronger connections than the cortex. The newly evolved parts of the brain can be in charge only when nothing interferes with the older parts. So, if we are hungry, cold, stressed, etc, the parts of the brain stem will automatically take over, with no consideration of the workings of the cortex. So yes, it makes sense that a healthy, well-functioning brain stem is a prerequisite to a well-functioning cortex.

I am so looking forward to try this out, once I decide how to go about it! (rental, seeing a practitioner, or, I am even considering visiting a practitioner for an evaluation, and then renting the equipment to do it on my own)

(Just saw your post Laura, putting it in the amazon basket!)

Caution! It seems neuroptimal is not real NFB. I also asked for some info by these practitionners. One of them gave me appointment directly whereas I wanted first to see what is their protocole. Another one said me he'll see and contact me. I don't rely on this method (not the NFB, I speak of the neuroptimal). On french websites there are so many sites about it, so many testimonies but there is no research on it !! just testimonies. See pubmed: no result!! They label it NFB but the protocol seems different, there is no feedback in this device from what I understood. But I wait to see it with my own eyes. And I continue to search for real NFB. I'll let you know. Our time is to precious to waste it with fake methods.

 

[nature]

Add: someone mentioned the Othmer method: it's a very good one, real NFB. There are others. I'm currently searching for them.

 

[Persej]

An EEG and QEEG are two entirely different things. EEG is most useful to diagnose epilepsy. QEEG takes the raw EEG signal and this signal is then statistically processed and compared to a “normative” databse, so that the end-picture tells you where your own brain is underactive and where it is overactive compared to the “norm”.

For more information see here and for a graphic representation of the results see here.

Ok. It says, "Quantitative Electroencephalography (qEEG) is a procedure that processes the recorded EEG activity from a multi-electrode recording using a computer." But on the pictures of some NF practitioners in my country I don't see that they are using multiple electrodes, I only see three - two on ears and one on the head. It looks exactly like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVjOwwPfWVo

So how effective is that? They are using ProComp Infinity with 8 channels (like on that video), but maybe they are not using all of them because they have to pay extra for sensors. The ProComp2 that Alana mentioned has only two channels.

And on QEEG websites they mention 19 sensors which can be seen on their brain maps.

 

[Laura]

Gaby, how many electrodes and where placed?

Chu and I tried the Neuroptimal (I think, Chu can correct me if wrong) thing. She said she had some small breaks or pauses or skips in her movie; I didn't think I had any but the therapist said there were some that were on the screen she was watching which shows the waves or something. Anyway, I don't feel any different and I'm wondering if this is the right thing for me to try?