New book by Madame de Salzmann: The Reality of Being

[dugdeep]

Re: New book by Madame de Salzmann

After having this book on my shelf for over a year, I've finally starting to dig into it and I have to say that I'm finding it extremely helpful in my Work. It really is quite a remarkable book, although I'm only less than a quarter of the way through it. I'm finding de Salzmann is incredibly good at bringing across concepts that I would have thought to be beyond the ability to communicate, yet she does so in a very straight forward and practical way.

As others have said, some of it I can relate to and apply to my own experience, while some is beyond me. The chapter about the movement centre and tensions in the body being related to thoughts and feelings I'm having difficulty relating to my own experience, for instance, but it has certainly given a direction for me to work in. The chapter on thought, however, (some of which was quoted earlier in this thread by Helle) was a huge insight and has changed the way I view my thinking. It's like it has given me a new approach to Work from.

Like others have said, this is one I'm working my way through very slowly. I'm actually reading each chapter twice before moving on to the next one in order to gleen as much as I can from it. It does seem to require one to focus beyond our usual attention to really grok what's being said, as 3D Student said.

Anyway, these are just my thoughts. I hope others have found the book as helpful as I have.

 

[RflctnOfU]

Re: New book by Madame de Salzmann

I would just like to point out a subtle warning from G, in *Beelzebub's Tales - which is the 'bible' of his system - regarding DeSalzmann and her understanding of said system. Chapter 3 - notes on page 56, and Chapter 35 - page 659. According to Orage, G said all the keys are in the book, but nowhere near the doors. I think this is one of those instances.

*This is the originally published, unrevised edition. Page numbers in revised edition will be different.

Kris

 

[Iron]

Re: New book by Madame de Salzmann

I would just like to point out a subtle warning from G, in *Beelzebub's Tales - which is the 'bible' of his system - regarding DeSalzmann and her understanding of said system. Chapter 3 - notes on page 56, and Chapter 35 - page 659. According to Orage, G said all the keys are in the book, but nowhere near the doors. I think this is one of those instances.

*This is the originally published, unrevised edition. Page numbers in revised edition will be different.

Kris

Just because all the keys are in Beelzebub's, it does not mean that De Salzmann's book is not equally helpful. Orage did not spend nearly as much time as a student of Gurdjieff.

 

[RflctnOfU]

Re: New book by Madame de Salzmann

I would just like to point out a subtle warning from G, in *Beelzebub's Tales - which is the 'bible' of his system - regarding DeSalzmann and her understanding of said system. Chapter 3 - notes on page 56, and Chapter 35 - page 659. According to Orage, G said all the keys are in the book, but nowhere near the doors. I think this is one of those instances.

*This is the originally published, unrevised edition. Page numbers in revised edition will be different.

Kris

Just because all the keys are in Beelzebub's, it does not mean that De Salzmann's book is not equally helpful. Orage did not spend nearly as much time as a student of Gurdjieff.

1. Did you read the pages I mentioned?
2. Time spent with G doesn't equate with quality of understanding. Also, Orage was intimately involved with getting Beelzebub put into English - the Tales are 'for' the English speaking world, specifically, Americans.

Kris

 

[anart]

Re: New book by Madame de Salzmann

1. Did you read the pages I mentioned?
2. Time spent with G doesn't equate with quality of understanding. Also, Orage was intimately involved with getting Beelzebub put into English - the Tales are 'for' the English speaking world, specifically, Americans.

Kris

Hi Kris, could you explain why you think this is true? Mme de Salzmann was a close confidant of Gurdjieff, while Orage was a pupil who failed at trying to bring the teachings directly to America (due mostly to his own self-importance and issues with women from what I understand). Mme de Salzmann's demonstrated understanding of G's work, through her own writings and teachings after G passed (and the fact that he left the publishing of his works to her discretion) is vastly superior to Orage's, to my understanding.

Regarding the purpose of this thread, I personally found her latest published work to be a bit disappointing, though there are certainly gems to be found there.

 

[nicklebleu]

Re: New book by Madame de Salzmann

BTW, Amazon also has a Kindle edition of Jeanne de Salzmann's new book ...

 

[paralleloscope]

Re: New book by Madame de Salzmann

I would just like to point out a subtle warning from G, in *Beelzebub's Tales - which is the 'bible' of his system - regarding DeSalzmann and her understanding of said system. Chapter 3 - notes on page 56, and Chapter 35 - page 659. According to Orage, G said all the keys are in the book, but nowhere near the doors. I think this is one of those instances.

*This is the originally published, unrevised edition. Page numbers in revised edition will be different.

Kris

Could you quote or explain in short what this subtle warning is. I appearently have the revised edition since nothing of seeming relevance is found on those pages.

 

[realitybugll]

Re: New book by Madame de Salzmann

This was the hardest book to read out of the books I've read about Gurdjieff / the work. I think I only read 20 pages so far. I skipped around the table of contents to read the certain subjects I might be more intrigued by, but that didn't seem to help.

the problem for me I guess is that there is not many events or timeline in the parts I read, just ideas. And the second problem is that I could not understand the ideas.

Or maybe, I did understand somewhat, but it was very uninteresting, so I thought there is something more I should understand.

I'm surprised after my experience, so many people seem to find it worthwhile. that means I have to go back and read it at some point.

 

[RflctnOfU]

Re: New book by Madame de Salzmann

I would just like to point out a subtle warning from G, in *Beelzebub's Tales - which is the 'bible' of his system - regarding DeSalzmann and her understanding of said system. Chapter 3 - notes on page 56, and Chapter 35 - page 659. According to Orage, G said all the keys are in the book, but nowhere near the doors. I think this is one of those instances.

*This is the originally published, unrevised edition. Page numbers in revised edition will be different.

Kris

Could you quote or explain in short what this subtle warning is. I appearently have the revised edition since nothing of seeming relevance is found on those pages.

[...]"Your Right Reverence of course knows that this 'Madcap' comet always leaves in its track a great deal of 'Zilnotrago'* which on entering the planetary body of a being disorganizes most of its functions until all the 'Zilnotrago' is volatilized out of it.[...] *The word "Zilnotrago" is the name of a special gas similar to what we call "cyanic acid."

[...]"Very good, your Reverence, I will think out how it may be possible to carry out your desire. I do not know just what obstacles there were then for the captain of the ship Omnipresent, but in the present case, on the dirct route between the holy planet Purgatory and the planet Deskaldino, there lies the solar system called Salzmanino, in which there are many of those cosmic concentrations which, for purposes of the general cosmic Trogoautoegocratic process, are predetermined for the transformation and radiation of the substances Zilnotrago; and therefore the direct falling of our ship Karnak, unhindered, through this system, will scarcely be possible. In any case, I will try in one way or another to satisfy the desire expressed by your Reverence."

Kris

 

[anart]

Re: New book by Madame de Salzmann

Kris, you're being nonsensical. Did you pick up this interpretation from somewhere? If so, where?

 

[RflctnOfU]

Re: New book by Madame de Salzmann

1. Did you read the pages I mentioned?
2. Time spent with G doesn't equate with quality of understanding. Also, Orage was intimately involved with getting Beelzebub put into English - the Tales are 'for' the English speaking world, specifically, Americans.

Kris

Hi Kris, could you explain why you think this is true? Mme de Salzmann was a close confidant of Gurdjieff, while Orage was a pupil who failed at trying to bring the teachings directly to America (due mostly to his own self-importance and issues with women from what I understand). Mme de Salzmann's demonstrated understanding of G's work, through her own writings and teachings after G passed (and the fact that he left the publishing of his works to her discretion) is vastly superior to Orage's, to my understanding.

Regarding the purpose of this thread, I personally found her latest published work to be a bit disappointing, though there are certainly gems to be found there.

Hi Anart.

Have you read the book 'Hidden Meanings and Picture-Form Language in the Writings of Gurdjieff'? Here is a pdf of the first three chapters of the book for free (on authors website): _http://www.gurdjieffsburieddog.com/uploads/1ST_3__shortened_PDF.pdf

FWIW, I think some of his ideas are off. But, those ideas pertaining to the negative influence Mme de Salzmann had on his writings in particular - due to her push to revise them, and somewhat on "The Work" in general, are hard to refute. The supporting material for this comes from quite a few of the secondary literature/journals of his pupils (And are quoted in Henderson's book).

The point in general is that BT's needed NO revision. The revised edition changed the exact meaning G put into it. This idea of 'wiseacring'/revising ruining a teaching is a theme throughout the Tales. Supposedly, Mme de Salzmann said that the only important part of the Tales are the chapters dealing with Ashiata Shiemash (don't recall the source for that quote however :\ ), which is complete bobagem. If that quote is true, she understood NONE of the wisdom and instructions hidden throughout the book.

Regarding Orage and his understanding of the Work, I would highly recommend reading C.S. Nott's two books - "The Teachings of Gurdjieff: A Pupils Journal" and "Journey Through this World" - as he worked closely with Orage for many years. Also included in "Teachings of G" is Orages "commentary on the Tales".


Kris

 

[RflctnOfU]

Re: New book by Madame de Salzmann

Kris, you're being nonsensical. Did you pick up this interpretation from somewhere? If so, where?

I think not. solar system Salzmanino. He was warning people regarding de Salzmann's disorganizing influence.

I recognized the connection on my own, then came across Henderson's book.

Have you read the Tales??

Kris

 

[Approaching Infinity]

Re: New book by Madame de Salzmann

I'm a bit skeptical about de Salzmann, too. Besides Henderson's book, there are other references, for example in Beekman Taylor's "Gurdjieff's America". After Gurdjieff died, she did a few things that in my mind were quite dubious. First of all, she put a call out to as many students of G as possible to collect notes and transcripts of his talks, as well as book manuscripts. Once they were in the Gurdjieff Foundation's possession, she had them all locked away. No one that is not 'up there' in the hierarchy of the group has access to these. Thus, there are no complete copies of Gurdjieff's manuscript of "Meetings with Remarkable Men". All that we have is the published version, which has been edited. "Life Is Real" has also been edited, but luckily Solita Solano was smart enough to leave all her notes and papers (which included a complete MS of "Life Is Real") to the Library of Congress, ensuring they were in the public domain. A comparison of the MS to the published version shows some complete changes of meaning (Henderson documents a few of these in his book) in certain passages. So we have no real way of knowing which meanings were changed in "Meetings". She also started teaching the movements only in fragments, keeping the complete versions secret.

 

[RflctnOfU]

Re: New book by Madame de Salzmann

I'm a bit skeptical about de Salzmann, too. Besides Henderson's book, there are other references, for example in Beekman Taylor's "Gurdjieff's America". After Gurdjieff died, she did a few things that in my mind were quite dubious. First of all, she put a call out to as many students of G as possible to collect notes and transcripts of his talks, as well as book manuscripts. Once they were in the Gurdjieff Foundation's possession, she had them all locked away. No one that is not 'up there' in the hierarchy of the group has access to these. Thus, there are no complete copies of Gurdjieff's manuscript of "Meetings with Remarkable Men". All that we have is the published version, which has been edited. "Life Is Real" has also been edited, but luckily Solita Solano was smart enough to leave all her notes and papers (which included a complete MS of "Life Is Real") to the Library of Congress, ensuring they were in the public domain. A comparison of the MS to the published version shows some complete changes of meaning (Henderson documents a few of these in his book) in certain passages. So we have no real way of knowing which meanings were changed in "Meetings". She also started teaching the movements only in fragments, keeping the complete versions secret.

Do you know where I might aquire the MS for "Life is Real"?? I've had for a while the "Two early Typescripts" - I think from fourthwaybooks.com

Kris

 

[Approaching Infinity]

Re: New book by Madame de Salzmann

I'm a bit skeptical about de Salzmann, too. Besides Henderson's book, there are other references, for example in Beekman Taylor's "Gurdjieff's America". After Gurdjieff died, she did a few things that in my mind were quite dubious. First of all, she put a call out to as many students of G as possible to collect notes and transcripts of his talks, as well as book manuscripts. Once they were in the Gurdjieff Foundation's possession, she had them all locked away. No one that is not 'up there' in the hierarchy of the group has access to these. Thus, there are no complete copies of Gurdjieff's manuscript of "Meetings with Remarkable Men". All that we have is the published version, which has been edited. "Life Is Real" has also been edited, but luckily Solita Solano was smart enough to leave all her notes and papers (which included a complete MS of "Life Is Real") to the Library of Congress, ensuring they were in the public domain. A comparison of the MS to the published version shows some complete changes of meaning (Henderson documents a few of these in his book) in certain passages. So we have no real way of knowing which meanings were changed in "Meetings". She also started teaching the movements only in fragments, keeping the complete versions secret.

Do you know where I might aquire the MS for "Life is Real"?? I've had for a while the "Two early Typescripts" - I think from fourthwaybooks.com

That's the one I was referring to. (The longer of the two is from Solano's papers.)