New Sally K. Norton interview by Mercola - Jan 1, 2023

For a long time I was under the impression that you can take loads of vitamin C with no consequences. It seems that Vit C infusions should be reserved only for people with serious problems i.e sepsis, active cancer etc. I am now leaning towards maximum 500 mg per day of liposomal vitamin C for most people who are in good health.
Just wanted to share this recent Q&A with Sally K. Norton.
At the 8:00 min. mark, this gets into mega dosing vit c. At one point Sally mentions a vein fibrosis developed in her, formed by oxalates related to vit c delivery, and the needle broke.

This whole vit c aspect is a good discussion on its own - I'm one of those who has been receiving vit c by IV and I'm now wondering if a developed shoulder problem, that seems to mimic that broken glass feeling, is related (same arm as usual IV delivery).

Edit: Adding Sally's review of coffee and oxalates:

What Is the Oxalate Content of Coffee? - Sally K. Norton
 
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At the 8:00 min. mark, this gets into mega dosing vit c. At one point Sally mentions a vein fibrosis developed in her, formed by oxalates related to vit c delivery, and the needle broke.

This whole vit c aspect is a good discussion on its own - I'm one of those who has been receiving vit c by IV and I'm now wondering if a developed shoulder problem, that seems to mimic that broken glass feeling, is related (same arm as usual IV delivery).

Edit: Adding Sally's review of coffee and oxalates:

What Is the Oxalate Content of Coffee? - Sally K. Norton
My thoughts on this is that Vitamin C is great to take while your sick or if you're doing IV for cancer treatment or a specific protocol that call for it because in situations like that, worrying about oxalates isn't the main issue, but other than that there's no benefit to taking it regularly.
 
I am super happy to hear that Sally's book is about to be published. She sure has put in a lot of hard work into unearthing a lot of the science on this topic, which has generally been misunderstood and "murky". She has single-handedly raised public awareness of oxalate overload by a massive amount compared to what it was just four years ago. There was only a handful of people talking about it publicly on YT back then, whereas now the topic has blown up and is more popular then ever. I am excited to read what she has wrote, because she is a very thorough researcher and can speak from experience as well.

Sally Norton writes:

The Hazards of Excessive Vitamin C​

"Vitamin C and ascorbic acid can also lead to problems if your body is already loaded with oxalates as it is metabolically reduced to oxalic acid during breakdown. Norton explains:

“The major source of internal oxalate is ascorbic acid or vitamin C ... There are lots of case studies of train wrecks from supplements, and lots of case studies about problems with intravenous vitamin C. Let me tell you my personal story. I had vitamin C chelation ... I didn't know I had an oxalate problem ...
So, while the body's being assaulted by too much vitamin C, it's busy sequestering the oxalate that's forming and holding onto it and protecting the kidneys from devastation, from excessive oxalate load. Once you stop producing or eating too much oxalate, this holding pattern can let go, and now you see much higher oxalate levels in the blood and the urine.”

For these reasons, if you take vitamin C on a regular basis, Norton recommends limiting it to 250 mg a day. This is enough to meet your nutritional requirements and is unlikely to cause oxalic acid-related trouble. The exception would be if you are septic, in which case large doses of IV ascorbic acid can save your life."


Hell, I'm taking 2.000 mg a day. I may be cutting it down to 1.000 mg in summer, but I thought that a high intake of vitamin C was important, or was that just meant to be as a reaction to the Covid-19 situation? :umm:
 
Sally Norton writes:

A main article she wrote, although in 2015, states (not sure about the salad part):

Taking Vitamin C? Try a Salad Instead.​

If you are taking 500 mg or more vitamin C daily, there is something you need to know. Vitamin C (in excess) can become a toxin that can lead to kidney stones, arthritis, other pain conditions, and perhaps, compromised brain function. For decades we have been told that vitamin C is good for us and may help prevent colds. But too much of a good thing can make trouble. (Research has not been able to confirm the theory that vitamin C supplements help to prevent colds unless you routinely engage in physically demanding work or endurance sports.)
The body tends to metabolize excess vitamin C into a corrosive acid called oxalic acid. This acid immediately steals minerals like calcium as it becomes oxalate. As the kidneys remove oxalate from the blood, calcium oxalate can grow into crystals in the kidneys or elsewhere in the urinary tract causing painful stones. Over time, if the kidneys are forced to handle excessive amounts of oxalate everyday, kidney failure is likely. This is how taking 500 mg or more of vitamin C can promote a loss of kidney function. Perhaps the modern habit of taking extra vitamin C is contributing to the rising rates of kidney stones. One estimate suggests that half of us will get a kidney stone in our lifetime.
Oxalates in the body that are not removed by, or stuck in, the (perhaps struggling) kidneys can get lodged in other tissues of the body and cause trouble there too. Oxalate crystals have been found in every human tissue including bones, joints, glands – especially the thyroid, blood vessels, arterial plaque, eyes, lungs, and skin. These crystals are sharp and irritating, and they may trigger an immune response and promote inflammation. They may also generate free-radicals that can damage cell membranes and damage the cell organelles, especially the mitochondria which are important energy producers.
When a cell attempts to dissolve the oxalate crystal deposits, oxalate molecules or ions may move around and trigger episodic pain or difficulty with brain and nerve functions. Sleep, concentration, memory, and thinking can all be affected by the movement of oxalates in and around neurological tissues. Likewise, bone problems and joint pain can result from calcium oxalate deposits which may become more likely when excess amounts of vitamin C are taken.
How much vitamin C is safe?
The RDA for C (ascorbic acid) is 75 mg for adult females and 90 mg for adult males. This sounds like very little, but even as little as 10 mg is enough to avoid scurvy – the vitamin C deficiency disease. A daily intake of 150-200 mg of C is considered safe for most people and is under the threshold that seems to generate additional oxalate in the body. Most people can get that much from typical diets that contain some vegetables or fruits. To illustrate the point, see the tables below. I offer two hypothetical diets: 1) a diet with many healthy fresh foods, and 2) a diet of mostly fast food. (Just major ingredients are listed in the tables.)
The diet of healthy, fresh foods listed in Table 1 is not necessarily my recommended diet, but it comes close. Notice that a lunch of beef stew with a salad composed of romaine lettuce and ¼ of a red bell pepper provides over 60 -70% of the RDA by itself. If the dressing was made with lemon juice, that would add 5 mg more and bring the vitamin C content of the lunch up to 59 – 66 mg. Add 2 sliced radishes (~4 mg vit C.) to bring the vitamin C content of lunch to nearly 70 mg (78 – 93% of the RDA). Of course, many people skip the salad option at lunch and instead select convenience foods, as in my hypothetical fast food diet in Table 2 below.
Lets a look at the diet of fast foods with no extra fruits or vegetables (Table 2) which only gets us about 25% of the RDA. The addition of just ¼ of a fresh bell pepper (38 mg C) and 1/2 cup of raw cantaloupe (23 mg C) would bring the fast-food diet up to the RDA for vitamin C. Of course, adding bell pepper and cantaloupe cannot correct the many other deficiencies and problems created by a fast-food diet.
These tables are intended to illustrate the point that vitamin C requirements can be met when fresh vegetables or citrus fruits are included in the diet. There is no need for a daily vitamin C supplement if you eat fresh vegetables daily – broccoli with dinner or a simple salad can get you there. Remember, however, that the body does not store vitamin C, so you need to eat foods with vitamin C every day. Make my favorite dressing tonight, and enjoy a delicious salad tomorrow.
There is no need for a daily vitamin C supplement if you eat fresh foods – everyday. If you do take vitamin C containing supplements or C fortified foods keep it at a safe level – which seems to be between 150 – 250 mg.
 
Hell, I'm taking 2.000 mg a day. I may be cutting it down to 1.000 mg in summer, but I thought that a high intake of vitamin C was important, or was that just meant to be as a reaction to the Covid-19 situation? :umm:
Thanks for bringing this up, Ursus Minor, i was also wondering about what she writes about Vit C. Also i took 2 1,000mg capsules every day, until i read what she says about it. She says on page 111 of the book that:

the amount of vitamin C we need varies with carbohydrate consumption. If we eat fewer carbs, we need less vitamin C. .... Taking 60 to 90 mg every day via low-oxalate foods like lettuce and lemon juice is probably the best strategy for getting adequate vitamin C. Infection or acute inflammation may slightly and temporarily increase our need for vitamin C, perhaps to as much as 250 mg per day.

Also interesting what she writes about Quercetin on page 60:

Quercetin (a plant pigment flavonoid found in onions, green tea, and other foods) is a popular health supplement that disrupts cell membranes yet falsely shows up as beneficial, owing to inaccurate research methods.

Hmm, over the past months, i have occasionaly been taking Quercetin with zinc, but found that for me it resulted in outbreaks on my face and last time on my throat, so stopped taking it.
 
A main article she wrote, although in 2015, states (not sure about the salad part):
The body tends to metabolize excess vitamin C into a corrosive acid called oxalic acid. This acid immediately steals minerals like calcium as it becomes oxalate.

This got me thinking about Vitamin C to bowel tolerance. Is it an idea to say that if you discover on a certain day (say, if you've a cold) your bowel tolerance is 3 grams of Vitamin C, would Vit C in excess of 3 grams be considered excess Vitamin C, or would anything over Sally's safe measure of 150-250 mg of Vit C still be considered excess? I would think possibly the body would take the 3 grams of Vit C and use it, but anything over 3 grams would be metabolized to oxalic acid.
Any one have thoughts on this?
 
The body tends to metabolize excess vitamin C into a corrosive acid called oxalic acid. This acid immediately steals minerals like calcium as it becomes oxalate.

This got me thinking about Vitamin C to bowel tolerance. Is it an idea to say that if you discover on a certain day (say, if you've a cold) your bowel tolerance is 3 grams of Vitamin C, would Vit C in excess of 3 grams be considered excess Vitamin C, or would anything over Sally's safe measure of 150-250 mg of Vit C still be considered excess? I would think possibly the body would take the 3 grams of Vit C and use it, but anything over 3 grams would be metabolized to oxalic acid.
Any one have thoughts on this?
It personally think it ultimately comes down to context. I am not convinced that anything over 250mg vitamin C is converted into oxalate in everyone.

There are a few variables which can determine the rate of conversion into oxalate: 1. Concentration of free transition metals like copper and iron, 2. The redox environment ( are there a tonne of free radicals floating around which enhance the oxidation of ascorbate?) and 3. Someone's predisposition towards endogeous oxalate production.

Sally Norton/Susan Owens are very strict with vitamin C, and that is probably for good reason in their own personal situation. Likewise, I have personally seen TOO MANY people who get worse / their "oxalate symptoms" relapse and worsen when taking vitamin C to pass it off as coincidence. So it seems objectively true that their are a group of people who endogenously produce oxalate when they take vitamin C. This is supported by a body of literature also.

But.... is this the case of everyone, or even a lot of people? Probably not. High-dose vitamin C seems to help a lot of people, and even if it does convert to oxalate, those people appear to have a good handling capacity.

Therefore, like everything else, context is important. Both camps (the pro-vitamin C, and the anti-vitamin C) make valid points and seem to apply to different groups of people.
 
I agree with Elliot regarding her claims about vit C, too complex to say that I think. Also, what if you are constantly inflamed?

I immediately thought of India, the No 1 oxalate country inte the world, all those spices and rice/beans they use! And the cooking oils (no oxalates in oils, but the combo)…I have no overall health data of India but my impression is that I don't think they have a lot of joint pain and stiffness.

I started my anti-oxalate diet (among other anti-things) with supplements 18 months ago and I was dumping oxalate through my eyes, ears, scars, skin, urine, feces the first 6-8 months. I still do that but only occasionally, and then only in my urine. I've ben taking 10-20 g a day of ascorbate and still improving, but I will now test a new kind of Lipo-C (see Thors thread ) to see if I start feeling better/dumping, only 1-3 g a day.
 
The lists are constantly being updated, and that one looks like it is from 2007. More recent ones can be found here:

http://www.lowoxalate.info/food_lists/cat_lod_food_chart.pdf

That is a pretty extensive list.

Denoted on the table states GFCF Status & SCD Status. Take this to mean Gluten-free/Casein-free (GFCF) and Specific Carbohydrate Diet (SCD)? It did not spell it out.

Took the data list and changed it for possible better readability - colour coded for risk factors based on their 'Key' provided at the end - rearranged and put the key at the top of the attached pdf (the data is not changed and the original is cited):
 

Attachments

Thanks for the info on this. I remember back in 2019 when it was first introduced on the forum. I first had concerns, but I was keto and basically concluded I didn't need to worry much with my 2 cups of black tea and occasional chocolate consumption.

But since then I forgot about the high oxalate foods. And most importantly, I went off keto a couple months ago and started eating more carbs. I initially bought some sweet potato and cassava chips, those big 12 bag boxes. So that took maybe 2 months to get through. But maybe not so bad if only 28-56g once or twice a day. I have some of these paleo puffs that are cassava as well and some brown rice and black bean cereal. The cereal I'm eating now has chickpeas, tapioca and pea protein as the first three ingredients. Still I don't eat but something like between 30g and 56g.

I cut back my Vitamin C from 3g to 2g after that thread detailing that more than 2g may actually be harmful. But now I think I will lower it to 1g. The supplements I have are 1g capsules so to go lower I'd need to find smaller dose ones. I saw milk thistle is high and I've been taking 500mg for a long time to protect the liver along with the iodine protocol.

I've added coffee to reduce black tea. I'm thinking that added spices to sausage and meats should be low? Thinking of oregano and black pepper. Or even pumpkin spice with the main ingredient being cinnamon? Maybe it's time to use my jeweler's scale, but I don't think 2 or 3 dashes would really be a lot? Are y'all reducing your higher oxalate foods slowly or getting rid of them? I hope to settle on oatmeal and white rice as carb staples.
 
The lists are constantly being updated, and that one looks like it is from 2007. More recent ones can be found here:

According to this PDF turmeric and milk thistle are very high in oxalates. Do you think they still can be beneficial for liver? Can they be taken daily or just occasionally? I tend to think now that if they do help liver in some way then only due to hormetic effect (mild stress) produced by them.

Sally Norton is quite relentless about quercetin and curcumin supplements. From her book (Toxic Superfoods):

Quercetin (a plant pigment flavonoid found in onions, green tea, and other foods) is a popular health supplement that disrupts cell membranes yet falsely shows up as beneficial, owing to inaccurate research methods. Similarly, a review of research on turmeric and its extract curcumin emphatically observed, “No double-blinded, placebo controlled clinical trial of curcumin has been successful [found beneficial effects].” The authors point out that curcumin is “unstable in a biological setting” and are highly critical of the volume of inconclusive research, explaining that “cautionary [research] reports [of toxic effects and ineffectiveness] appear to have been swept away in the torrent of papers, reviews, patents, and Web sites touting the use of curcumin.” One of those cautionary reports observed, “The fact that curcumin is a common dietary constituent is not enough to prove its safety, as other common dietary constituents [such as beta-carotene] have shown toxicity when used as dietary supplements.The body limits curcumin absorption and the liver quickly degrades it, treating curcumin like a toxin. It’s a good thing that our digestive tract and liver detoxify curcumin—unless taken with black pepper, as is now recommended—because curcumin otherwise would likely cause DNA damage and (reversible) infertility. Constant exposure to these compounds leads to constant metabolic stress. In a direct experimental study, researchers found that avoiding plant flavonoids and polyphenols lowers cellular stress.

I don't know...:huh:
 

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