Next Nearest Alternative

[mamadrama]

Thanks for your input, mb. Sandra Brown has a good website and electronic newsletter that is quite informative but part of the draw for me in forming the group is to be with people. Since so much of this experience is private and personal, I don't think people would want or should share such intimate information in such a public way. As I'm sure you know, when offering a support group a safe, secure place is necessary and a confidentiality agreement is required between all participants. I've been thinking that in addtion to the twelve-step program like Al-Anon for families and friends of alcoholics, there should be one for families and survivors of psychopaths. What could we call it? Pon Anon? Just thinking.....

 

[go2]

As much as I want to do the Work, sometimes, the esoteric nataure of it is just too abstract to affect the gritty reality of 3D life in the trenches, osis. At this point, anyway, it seems I won't be able to do the Work or make much progress until I finish healing and I am at peace with this experience.

I have found the real work to be anything but abstract. It is the persistent and close observation of self in relationship and a detailed recollection of one's life. The abstractions provide a vessel for reevalution of values and behavior. I didn't get beyond studying the abstraction of the work maps or the fellowship of other sufferers for decades. Only in the last five years have I put the "shoulder to the plow" and taken the inner journey of studying self. It is difficult and painful work. I had no idea I was trapped in the Matrix. I only experienced a measure of healing by the struggle itself.

Again, I think you're right, I will not be doing the Work if I form this group. The thing is, though, I may need to do it so that I am able to do the Work, I'm not sure.

I've been thinking that in addtion to the twelve-step program like Al-Anon for families and friends of alcoholics, there should be one for families and survivors of psychopaths. What could we call it? Pon Anon? Just thinking.....

There is a Twelve Step Group for Codependents called CoDA.
_http://www.codependents.org/ You might consider the following quote from Jesus.

3 “Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? 4 “Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ and behold, the log is in your own eye? 5 “You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye.

 

[mamadrama]

Thanks, go2. Your post was oddly reminiscent of my ex...Just wondering how you think Matthew 7:3 relates here? Personally I think Matthew 7:6 is more appropriate when dealing with psychopaths.

Give not which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

 

[nicklebleu]

Hi guys,

Have followed this thread with much intrest. Could find myself in many of the posts - being torn between the opposing views ...

So for my own benefit I would like to try to wrap up these posts and provide a few thoughts about what I have learned in the last few weeks ... and would welcome your guidance.

For me there is a distinction between "sending love and light" and "to love creation". By sending love and light I am trying to change something that I consider being wrong/ broken/ in need to be fixed. But because all creation ultimately comes from God/ the One/ Prime Creator (or whatever you would like to name the original creative force of the universe) - and this originating entity is perfect and complete, everything is also perfect - part of creation. So no need to fix things. I may not like this or that aspect of reality - and it is my right and choice to not interfere or associate with it. I can withdraw from it, keep myself out of its reach, defend mysel from it, not give my consent - but to try to alter it is in fact a Free-Will violation. It goes contrary to respecting the Will of the Creator. All is balance...

Evil comes in many disguises, some of it seemingly of "love and light", doing "good deeds", perfoming miracles, healing the sick - or appearing as a "holy person" draped in a "blue veil" (cf. The Wave Series). And we will see more of these "false prophets" as we will go along. So for us it is vital to pierce this veil of the "prophets", to see behind the mask and understand, what their true orientation is - STS vs. STO. And yes, I also shudder at the words "STS" and "STO" - what a cold concept. Or is it?

Also things happen for a reason. For me this is a very strange and difficult concept. Having a scientific background I would have discarded this idea outright 6 months ago - how things change. There is Actio and Reactio, and cold RANDOMNESS. I have come to realize, that this concept is flawed. The way I understand this now is: Every minute detail of my life is a message, a hint in the language of the universe, that - alas - I am mostly unable to decipher. If you look at what happens in a day: A multitude of weird little things, seemingly unconnected, without any reason, random. But I start to believe more and more that things do no just "happen" - they happen for a purpose. All there is is lessons - problem is, I don't understand the lesson - most of the time I don't even realise I am being taught. So my purpose is to walk this life with eyes open and to try to understand what is happening around me ... well, not quite there yet!

Of course the same is true for everyone else. Things do happen for a purpose - and what is bad for me is not necessarily bad for someone else. So trying to press my concept of reality onto someone else is a Free-Will violation. Something terrible/ nasty may happen to someone else as a necessary lesson. This is still a bit of a sticky point for me: If someone is obviously in a tight spot - do I not step in? Say, my sister fell into a river and is drowning: Of course I would jump in and try to save her. Now what if she deliberately jumped in to commit suicide? Am I violating Free-Will if I try to save her?

My post might seem like a bit of a rumble - but that is how I feel at the moment ... so comments "with a hammer" most welcome!

 

[go2]

3 “Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? 4 “Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ and behold, the log is in your own eye?
5 “You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye.

Your post was oddly reminiscent of my ex...Just wondering how you think Matthew 7:3 relates here? Personally I
think Matthew 7:6 is more appropriate when dealing with psychopaths.

Give not which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

Mathew 7:3 refers to working on self, before attempting to judge or lead others.
Helping others is often an attempt by STS to disquise itself as STO. I have found
self contaminated by psychopathic programs, and debugging self a challenge. This
is perhaps, separating the wheat from the chaff. One of these programs is the
"white knight" archetype. The usual approach was, "I feel your pain, can I help?"
I met many vampires this way, including myself. I have since learned to listen
carefully to hear if one in need is truly asking for help. This might be
considered removing a beam from one's own eye. Have you examined your
motive in the rush to "help others"?

 

[mamadrama]

There is a Twelve Step Group for Codependents called CoDA.
_http://www.codependents.org

go2, you have rather hastily and incorrectly, I might add, diagnosed me as a co-dependent.
It is a common mistake for therapists to make, (are you one by the way?) when treating victims of psychopaths.
The women studied in Sandra Brown's book (and let's just say I fit that general profile) were far from co-dependent. The TCI (Temperament and Character Inventory) were given to assess the women's trait strengths and weaknesses. The TCI looks at three temperamental traits:
1. Excitement seeking (also called novelty seeking, sensation seeking, or exploratory excitability) which refers to the desire to seek exciting people/places/things and avoid boredom.
2.Positive sociability/relationship investment (the TCI calls this reward dependence) which means how easily one does or doesn't respond to the pleasurable rewards in relationships and;
3.Harm avoidance which is the trait that helps one avoid being hurt.
Overwhelmingly, the women in Brown's study were found to be highly educated, successful, and powerful women. The average woman had a minimum of a Bachelor's degree or higher and most were professionally trained as:
Attorneys
Doctors
Therapists or social workers
Female clergy
Nurses or other medical professionals
Teachers or professors
Editors
CEO's of companies
Non-profit agency directors

Before the psychopath landed in their lives, they were financially secure, had good self-esteem, goal direction, and competitive attitudes.
Women as a group, tend to be very invested in their relationships. They are no more "dependent" on relationship reward than men are on their rewards.

Human beings are supposed to want to love and be loved;wanting this does not make a person pathological. Relationship investment only becomes pathological when the relationship is with a pathological!
Women who love psychopaths tested very high in relationship investment and positive sociability. These are the kinds of women pyschopaths like to target. The psychopath uses positive rewards to establish his patterns of power, control and dominance in a woman's life. Our women's temperament by nature is significantly motivated by relationship investment and this will always be true for them. For women to safeguard themselves from future psychopaths, they must first understand how issues like relationship investment place them at risk to hook-up with these types of men.

Perhaps you should do more research before posting and less presumption.

 

[Renaissance]

I think you're reacting a bit, mamadrama. Your mind is going through twists and turns while your emotions seem to be lashing out. The current topic was about your desire to create a support group, not about personality traits that could attract psychopaths or that could be developed from their abuse. And although it's an interesting issue, it looks like your using it to distract (both yourself and others) from the issue at hand.

go2 brought up STS masking itself as STO in the pursuit of 'helping'. It seems you may not have wanted to see if this could apply to your situation because your attention was diverted away in reaction other things he wrote. You even went so far as to imply go2 was a psychopath, or at least acting in such a manner.

I think it would be a good idea to think about the possibility go2 mentioned. Also, if you haven't read it, Barbra Hort's book Unholy Hungers in a good read on the topic.

 

[mamadrama]

Your mind is going through twists and turns while your emotions seem to be lashing out. The current topic was about your desire to create a support group, not about personality traits that could attract psychopaths or that could be developed from their abuse. And although it's an interesting issue, it looks like your using it to distract (both yourself and others) from the issue at hand.

Well, actually, this thread has sort of morphed and strayed away from its original point. If there's more to say about the current topic of me starting a support group, I think a new thread needs to be started.
The reason I included the traits about women who have been in relationship with psychopaths is because go2 suggests this happens because of a co-dependency issue. That is not the case and seems like that should be clarified as it is a common mistake that therapists also make.

go2 brought up STS masking itself as STO in the pursuit of 'helping'. It seems you may not have wanted to see if this could apply to your situation because your attention was diverted away in reaction other things he wrote. You even went so far as to imply go2 was a psychopath, or at least acting in such a manner

No, I'm happy to consider the possibility. But the manner in which go2 posted was quite offputting and his point was not clear to me. If you recall his first post began in a rather sanctimonious way dismissing the personal insight that I was sharing and substituting it with his personal insight that he found the absolute oposite to be true. Next, without comment but by reposting my musings of a twelve step program, he inserted a link for a co-dependent website.
Finally, again without offering comment or insight, he posted Matthew 7:3. Frankly, I did not quite follow what go2's actual point was, and it did totally remind me of how my ex responds to things.

Also, if you haven't read it, Barbra Hort's book Unholy Hungers in a good read on the topic.

Thanks, I'll add it to the list.

 

[go2]

go2, your posts of late to domivr, mamadrama and Erna have had a rather unpleasant confrontational tone. It would be appreciated if you could tone it down a bit - no need for venom when logic will do. If one must use venom because one is lacking facts, then restraining oneself from posting is highly preferable to what you've been up to of late.

Thanks anart, I read the thread several times and wonder at the source of emotions fueling my rude posts. I did feel the reaction, but don't know how to make a positive contribution without confrontation. Thanks for your suggestion that logic and facts are the proper approach.

go2, you have rather hastily and incorrectly, I might add, diagnosed me as a co-dependent.
It is a common mistake for therapists to make, (are you one by the way?) when treating victims of psychopaths.

First, I want to apologize for my rude posts, mamadrama. I examined this thread and others
after anart's caution, and see that I have an emotional investment or a "not I" in regard to your
suggestion that you might start a Twelve Step group for the victims of psychopaths. I have had
to look at my relationship history in detail and hear many other's sad stories.
No, I am not a therapist. I am member of a Twelve Step program and have worked with others
on a spiritual solution to addictions. As you probably know, relationships are an addiction when
they are focused on the reward, rather than the responsibility of being a true partner.

Before the psychopath landed in their lives, they were financially secure, had good self-esteem, goal direction, and competitive attitudes.
Women as a group, tend to be very invested in their relationships. They are no more "dependent" on relationship reward than men are on their rewards.

What is missing in these materially successful people's capacity to select a mate? Could it be
that they are focused on power and its rewards rather than love. Shane mentioned Unholy Hungers.
Barbara Hort states that when we did not find love in this predatory world we settled for
power. It is power to be the victim, we do not have to be responsible. We can blame our
spouse, parents, or the world for our failures or lack of capacity to select an appropriate
mate, while it is true the world and its people are often wrong, we don't recover sanity and
effectiveness until we examine are own role in the sad story. How did I end up involved with a
psychopath, might be a good first question. I had quiet a shock reading Unholy Hungers while I was doing a relationship inventory. I saw clearly the vampire archetype in myself, playing the victim, poor me to get my reward. I included the CoDA link, because it is focused on relationship addiction, which is often helping or saving others as a way to power. I hope this clarifies my post without being confrontational. If I fall short of avoiding venom, please point it out to me, as I am amazingly
blind in this hall of mirrors.

 

[mamadrama]

Thanks for your apology, go2.

What is missing in these materially successful people's capacity to select a mate? Could it be that they are focused on power and its rewards rather than love.

There is a very complicated dynamic going on that I won't go into here but it involves much more than power and relationship reward.

Shane mentioned Unholy Hungers.
Barbara Hort states that when we did not find love in this predatory world we settled for
power. It is power to be the victim, we do not have to be responsible. We can blame our
spouse, parents, or the world for our failures or lack of capacity to select an appropriate
mate, while it is true the world and its people are often wrong, we don't recover sanity and
effectiveness until we examine are own role in the sad story. How did I end up involved with a
psychopath, might be a good first question. I had quiet a shock reading Unholy Hungers while I was doing a relationship inventory. I saw clearly the vampire archetype in myself, playing the victim, poor me to get my reward. I included the CoDA link, because it is focused on relationship addiction, which is often helping or saving others as a way to power. I hope this clarifies my post without being confrontational. If I fall short of avoiding venom, please point it out to me, as I am amazingly
blind in this hall of mirrors.

I started a new thread in the What's on your Mind section on the topic of "Helping:" STS or STO"
I hope you will bring your experiences and insights over to that thread. I think I've hijacked this thread long enough. :)