"Night Owls" more likely to exhibit psychopathology?

[zhenqing]

Interesting thread, but I also find the article to be too simplistic in its approach to the subject. I've been a night owl almost all my life, and I know many people who are like that as well. None of them are Machiavellian, show a desire to manipulate others, or exhibiting traits of psychopathy. Sure, disrupted sleeping circles and poor sleep hygiene are bad for ones psychical and mental health, that I will agree on. You are more prone to stress and worse at dealing with it, and I observe in myself that when I stay very late at night, let's say until 2-3am and get up around 12pm it's often hard to motivate myself to do anything other than what's absolutely necessary. But when I'm up around 8am my day flows much better and I'm more productive. Too bad it doesn't happen to me very often, unless of course I have to wake up early to go to work.

To live near nature it is more easy to follow the hours of nature itself. Living in a metropolis it is against nature.

I agree. Even though the city where I live is not a metropolis, It's still hard to go to bed early. It's really too noisy and too bright. When I was younger I used to visit my relatives in the countryside, and I had no problems going to bed early and waking up early as well. I would feel much better too. But somehow when I'm in the city, it becomes nearly impossible. City thrives in night, and city never really goes to sleep.

Well, I had six years in my life when I had to be up before 6 a.m. 5 days a week so to get my daughter to school on time. You'd think that should be enough time to change a habit. I'd even keep that cycle on weekends to make things easier and surer. And no, that didn't change a thing. Nothing. Null. One night when I can't go to sleep when I should (for whatever reason, Fool Moon being one) is enough for my internal clock to reset itself and go to the night owl cycle, while any change in the other direction takes 'eternity'. But I do have days when I wake up and get up quite early, and I do like it, I just seem not been able to keep that cycle as 'default' and my internal clock is kind of biased in one direction.

I have similar problem, actually. It takes just one night where I can't sleep for some reason, and bam! The same thing starts all over again.

I notice that I'm often a night owl as well, and thinking about it one reason might be because the hustle and bustle of the day is gone, others are asleep, and I can focus on whatever in a quiet and serene setting with no interruptions, noise, distraction, or responsibilities/errands that exist during the day. Everything just seems quieter and more serene. I think being a night owl or not may also relate to your living situation - if you live alone, it may be easier to create a focused/quiet atmosphere whenever you need it, but if you're living with others, sometimes late evening or night is the only time when you get the privacy and quiet that you need for more focused/prolonged activities like reading.

Also, it's possible that I may find it easier to focus on certain things when in semi-sleepy state, not sure though. Perhaps being tired/sleepy makes it easier to focus for prolonged periods of time without the "ADD" kicking in and my brain going in a million directions at once. It seems I'm less likely to be internally self-distracted when I don't have the energy for it. So night owling may be a way some people force their brains to cooperate (perhaps without consciously realizing why they're doing it), if they don't have enough self-mastery to quiet down the mind and focused for prolonged periods of time when a lot of energy is present. Perhaps it's similar to smoking, people may crave it more for the mental boost they get than pure "addiction" to a substance.

Exactly. I've always been able to concentrate better at night because there are no "interruptions, noise, distractions, or responsibilities/errands that exist during the day". It's at this time I've gotten my best ideas and this is when I'm especially creative. It's also the serene atmosphere that I find especially alluring, I guess. My brain do tires easily though and I after a certain point (around 12-1am) it gets harder and harder to perform some mental tasks.

my 2 cents :)

 

[wmu9]

Being a psychopath doesn't require stealthy planning or alone time. It comes naturally in the daylight with plenty of social contact. That's why they are so effective.

However, an OP will define a psychopath as anyone who doesn't huddle in fear and conform with masses in the celebration of conformity. We're getting dangerous close to defining a psychopath as a non-conformist who doesn't share the goals of the masses. Soon the word will be worthless.

 

[cubbex]

Well I've been a dark owl because I had the bad habit, actually for me studying at night with the city in silence makes it so much easier, but I agree that it can make you pathological in the long term, because I noticed that if I didn't sleep properly I simply wasn't happy, it's like whenever I slept at 9 I woke up like a happy rabbit and if not, I woke up like a berserker.

Though I know morning people that are not so good.

 

[aaronfransen]

Oddly, I think the point that zhenqing touches on works the opposite for me: The reason I enjoy getting up early and "getting stuff done" is because there are no interruptions. Of course, that only works because I'm up & working before anyone else. My biggest problem is getting enough sleep. On the weekends it's fantastic, because even though I might wake at 4am, I can roll over and go back to sleep (I *always* wake up before my alarm) and won't get up until 7. Weekdays, if I get 5 hours of sleep I consider it a good night. Tried going to bed early, sometimes it works, often it doesn't, especially in the summer with the long hours.

Never was a night owl, but I think the article still makes a valid point: As a general rule, the "night life" is attractive to people of a particular psychological bent. Not all night owls are psychopaths, but certainly a larger proportion than morning people.

But as usual this is the thing about psychopaths, especially the smart ones. They are really, really good at hiding their squirm-inducing soulless behaviour :)

 

[wmu9]

Never was a night owl, but I think the article still makes a valid point: As a general rule, the "night life" is attractive to people of a particular psychological bent. Not all night owls are psychopaths, but certainly a larger proportion than morning people.

Citation needed. I've only every met morning psychopaths. Gives them a good start on the day to conspire and lay traps. Why would a psychopath with no real social drive need the night to be alone -- he doesn't? Psychopaths adapt in situ. On the contrary, anti-social people who don't like the world they find themselves in need an escape. Once again, defining a psychopath as anti-social is very OP thing to do. Counter-cultural, non-conformist tribes may not be doing "The Work" but they are certainly not psychopaths. God bless the 50-70s when psychologist focused on conformity in society. Beware of where we are headed with this sort of 'non-conformist' definition. They just need a few more non-conformist definitions and diagnoses, and they can put anyone away at will for the illness of nonconformity.

 

[aaronfransen]

I guess I should have said: "It's possible in the context of this study that not all night owls are psychopaths, but..."

I wasn't saying that was the case. I agree that most psychopathic individuals will tend to be very charismatic and social, not "loners", it just seems to me from my (admittedly limited) experience that the most social people are active in the evenings.

In terms of "marking" a psychopath, I don't think it's something we need or even want to do. The bigger trick is to not let yourself be manipulated, since that's where they get their power. It's that constant process of asking questions, avoiding the "taking it on faith" trap.

 

[doublea1535]

In terms of "marking" a psychopath, I don't think it's something we need or even want to do. The bigger trick is to not let yourself be manipulated, since that's where they get their power. It's that constant process of asking questions, avoiding the "taking it on faith" trap.

Identifying the potential of harm is the first and most important thing. A person could be brain damaged, traumatized, have a personality disorder, or be a psychopath, etc. But any of those types of people potentially pose a threat to your well-being or safety and knowing that you can take steps to avoid or mitigate the risk. This label the OP or the psychopath is wanting to leap-frog over knowledge, observation, and experience, to some final conclusion to feel that they have understanding. I think for most day-to-day instances, it's not important or worthwhile to even begin to understand exactly what went wrong or why in a persons brain that causes them to act they way they do. Identify they are an unsafe person and move on. If you can't avoid them, then that changes things and gaining a better understanding of their true nature is helpful for formulating a strategy. This is best done by observing their behavior, how they act towards people and in different situations. Not making judgement calls based on one or two habits like do they go to bed early or late, or did they enjoy the Twilight series.

Not that I am saying that is what people here are doing, but I think when articles like this hit the presses, my impression is that is how some people will react. Oh, night owls have a higher tendency towards psychopathic (Machiavellian) traits? Well then, that explains everything about [ person ] - I knew there was a reason I didn't like him.

I would think that along the pathological spectrum, being a night owl would lend itself more towards criminal behavior in general, and not any specific disorder. Robbery, drug dealing, assaults, etc, are things that are easier done at night.

 

[H-KQGE]

Interesting thread, but I also find the article to be too simplistic in its approach to the subject. I've been a night owl almost all my life, and I know many people who are like that as well. None of them are Machiavellian, show a desire to manipulate others, or exhibiting traits of psychopathy. Sure, disrupted sleeping circles and poor sleep hygiene are bad for ones psychical and mental health, that I will agree on. You are more prone to stress and worse at dealing with it, and I observe in myself that when I stay very late at night, let's say until 2-3am and get up around 12pm it's often hard to motivate myself to do anything other than what's absolutely necessary. But when I'm up around 8am my day flows much better and I'm more productive. Too bad it doesn't happen to me very often, unless of course I have to wake up early to go to work.

To live near nature it is more easy to follow the hours of nature itself. Living in a metropolis it is against nature.

I agree. Even though the city where I live is not a metropolis, It's still hard to go to bed early. It's really too noisy and too bright. When I was younger I used to visit my relatives in the countryside, and I had no problems going to bed early and waking up early as well. I would feel much better too. But somehow when I'm in the city, it becomes nearly impossible. City thrives in night, and city never really goes to sleep.

Well, I had six years in my life when I had to be up before 6 a.m. 5 days a week so to get my daughter to school on time. You'd think that should be enough time to change a habit. I'd even keep that cycle on weekends to make things easier and surer. And no, that didn't change a thing. Nothing. Null. One night when I can't go to sleep when I should (for whatever reason, Fool Moon being one) is enough for my internal clock to reset itself and go to the night owl cycle, while any change in the other direction takes 'eternity'. But I do have days when I wake up and get up quite early, and I do like it, I just seem not been able to keep that cycle as 'default' and my internal clock is kind of biased in one direction.

I have similar problem, actually. It takes just one night where I can't sleep for some reason, and bam! The same thing starts all over again.

I notice that I'm often a night owl as well, and thinking about it one reason might be because the hustle and bustle of the day is gone, others are asleep, and I can focus on whatever in a quiet and serene setting with no interruptions, noise, distraction, or responsibilities/errands that exist during the day. Everything just seems quieter and more serene. I think being a night owl or not may also relate to your living situation - if you live alone, it may be easier to create a focused/quiet atmosphere whenever you need it, but if you're living with others, sometimes late evening or night is the only time when you get the privacy and quiet that you need for more focused/prolonged activities like reading.

Also, it's possible that I may find it easier to focus on certain things when in semi-sleepy state, not sure though. Perhaps being tired/sleepy makes it easier to focus for prolonged periods of time without the "ADD" kicking in and my brain going in a million directions at once. It seems I'm less likely to be internally self-distracted when I don't have the energy for it. So night owling may be a way some people force their brains to cooperate (perhaps without consciously realizing why they're doing it), if they don't have enough self-mastery to quiet down the mind and focused for prolonged periods of time when a lot of energy is present. Perhaps it's similar to smoking, people may crave it more for the mental boost they get than pure "addiction" to a substance.

Exactly. I've always been able to concentrate better at night because there are no "interruptions, noise, distractions, or responsibilities/errands that exist during the day". It's at this time I've gotten my best ideas and this is when I'm especially creative. It's also the serene atmosphere that I find especially alluring, I guess. My brain do tires easily though and I after a certain point (around 12-1am) it gets harder and harder to perform some mental tasks.

my 2 cents :)

I have to be up waaay before 6am due to work, so everything has to fit around this schedule. All my dietary stuff (stretched out across the day for supplements absorption for one thing) & my exercise regiment & more. I used to be a night owl in my teens (already had insomnia) so i tried to put a positive spin on it by getting a night shift job. This exacerbated the condition especially as it took 3 night jobs in as many years to realize it. Returning to mornings 9-5 gave me a better view (that work period is awful for me) & so i went back to nights because of the money increase, but also the quiet.

But when the autoimmune "cliff" was reached i discovered i really couldn't tolerate artificial lights (it's as if they're on maximum power all the time) nor the regular noises of the city, which certainly didn't seem noisy before. My breakthrough was when i started to routinely do early morning work, it was like a whole new world! Natural lighting! Silence! Birds chirping away in the cool crisp breeze! The mental emotional lift was incredible (& i'm talking 4am/5am starts) & the best period was when i started researching.
I wrote a story with hundreds of pages of ideas & they just naturally flowed, all from the pre-dawn period. Realizing that this was definitely my period i took on a job to fit around the creative writing & research, which is my current one. The drawback are these damn lights!

Now i need early nights (more like early evenings, or at least a "power nap") because if i have 2 or more late nights, i'll end up bonkers, my internal clock will be off & the insomniac thing will kick in again & this time my whole body will hurt. It feels like some kind of nausea/migraine body-wide effect where any stress (like overworked muscles) is seriously magnified. Damn scary actually.
I can't forget about the noise sensitivity either. That was a shock & i live with 2 people for the first time in my life (am still adjusting) & they're seriously noisy in the Adam West Batman, "crash bang & wallop" sense. So when they're asleep (like now) there's no noise or distractions & i can "breathe." The hypnotic lights refuse to let up though. SAO may be on to something with the "semi-sleepy state" & the mental boost as opposed to addiction.

 

[zhenqing]

I have to be up waaay before 6am due to work, so everything has to fit around this schedule.

When I was still having a job (which was only two weeks ago), I used to wake up around 4:30-5:00am to get to work at 6am when I had morning shifts. And I still think it was a crime against humanity ;)
I've been having trouble sleeping for a couple of years now, and even being forced to wake up so early has not been able to change that. Basically, after having not enough sleep, and after 8 hours in work I would come home feeling so tired I would had a nap because I was unable to function properly. Then, the unhealthy cycle repeated. Because I've been sleeping during the day, I had trouble sleeping at night.

My breakthrough was when i started to routinely do early morning work, it was like a whole new world! Natural lighting! Silence! Birds chirping away in the cool crisp breeze!

Sounds lovely. I wish I could experience that in a regular manner. I hope that after changing my diet and sticking with it this time, plus doing EE regulary, my troubles with getting to bed early will lessen and it would be possible.

btw, noise sensitivity is the worst. one of the problems I stay so late at nights

 

[H-KQGE]

I have to be up waaay before 6am due to work, so everything has to fit around this schedule.

When I was still having a job (which was only two weeks ago), I used to wake up around 4:30-5:00am to get to work at 6am when I had morning shifts. And I still think it was a crime against humanity ;)
I've been having trouble sleeping for a couple of years now, and even being forced to wake up so early has not been able to change that. Basically, after having not enough sleep, and after 8 hours in work I would come home feeling so tired I would had a nap because I was unable to function properly. Then, the unhealthy cycle repeated. Because I've been sleeping during the day, I had trouble sleeping at night.

My breakthrough was when i started to routinely do early morning work, it was like a whole new world! Natural lighting! Silence! Birds chirping away in the cool crisp breeze!

Sounds lovely. I wish I could experience that in a regular manner. I hope that after changing my diet and sticking with it this time, plus doing EE regulary, my troubles with getting to bed early will lessen and it would be possible.

btw, noise sensitivity is the worst. one of the problems I stay so late at nights

I wake up around 2am on average & always before my alarm (used just as a back up) & you're not wrong about a crime against humanity! I'm sorry to hear about your sleep troubles, coming from someone who had chronic insomnia from early teens to just the beginning of this year i can sympathize. I had trouble sleeping at night due to naps from 8 hour shifts too, especially from 12 hour night shift security work. I can only speak from my experience & that something in your life may need to change drastically to get out of that cycle.

This is what happened to me & that was the autoimmune issue & i think starting of as a night owl was significant too. your situation may be different though. The passage you quoted about the early morning work was approximately 11 years back, & that was part of my drastic change. It lasted about 3 years but i knew going from nights to days & back with every new job was bad in the long run & early mornings were clearly better. I wish i could still experience it in a regular manner but i can't complain as i can do research & go to bed early since i work mornings.


What i can suggest (though it might be obvious) is to try & find work that fits in with what's most pressing in your life, this i'm assuming is your diet & health & any short to long-term changes will stem from there. unfortunately work that allows this aren't plentiful, but the DCM (Divine Cosmic Mind) always gives us opportunities which we rarely recognize as such due to the predators mind. The mindset of seeing opportunities where you previously didn't was tough for me & that's to do with faith, or leaps of faith & since you are here, doing EE & changing your diet as you say, then i'm sure you'll fare well.

On an immediate note, i also suggest sticking to a set time to go to bed for a while. I think it's a matter of training (or retraining if currently or previously a night owl) the mind & body & also setting up the mood of your sleeping environment for a calming setting, one conducive to long sleep, & not the broken type of sleep which is fairly problematic. I have only started to get regular 5-8 hours a night since early this year & i still do what i can to get more, i now love sleep (as a kid not sleeping didn't matter much) & the 10 hours plus that's been spoken of is a serious recharge. My only ten hours + experience was last year & was totally random, i slept through early morning one Saturday until late evening which was incredible. that rest saw me through the rest of a difficult week & i'm still after that again!

So please don't despair, you have the tools & use positive thinking & (i still have to remind myself of this) stick to the diet. (a must if you want relief) I can't suggest anything about the noise issue though, my plan is like yours, wait for it to die down then try & sleep, or go to bed real early to counter it. (my current strategy)
Btw, there's a thread on the sleep issue in the diet & health section if i remember correctly. Sorry i can't link to it right now. I wish you well in finding the right work.

 

[RflctnOfU]

Well, I am and have been a night owl type for most of my life. One of my early memories is me reading a book at night with a flashlight under a cover. For some reason, I couldn't read during the day. In school time it was about doing not school related things that my mother didn't approve. So I'm wondering whether it's genetic or learned tendency... But I used to read at night even before, so I just don't know.

I've also been a night owl most of my life. I also have a bad trait of being really grumpy in the mornings when I wake up. It doesn't matter how much sleep I've gotten either, when I have to get up, I just don't want to! :P

Recently since I started going back to work I've been sleeping normally again which I really like. I have a lot more energy during the day and I like being out in the sun! I always considered my being a night owl a bad habit but never thought deeply about it being something that makes you more pathological. :/

I do know that my father was a night owl as well and always wondered if it was a genetic thing. I do know that a lot of people in Iran are night owls. Reason being simply that it's way too hot during the day (especially in the spring/summer) to go outside, so people sleep in the day and get up very late in the afternoon and stay up until 2-3am. So I wonder if climate has also been taken into consideration.

Uh oh, I just realized it's actually really past my bed time now. There is not enough hours in the day, I tell ya... ;)

When I was an infant, I didn't start waking up until 11am. When mom was preggos with me, dad was on night shift and would get home at about 2am, with "dinner" at about 3am. This carried over into my life. I have been a true "night owl" since my memories begin (a year and a half-ish minus my earliest memory).

 

[beetlemaniac]

From what I can recall in the past few months, times when I really feel recharged is when I have lucid dreams during the 6-7am times of sleep. It usually happens when I wake up around 6 am and then immediately go back to sleep, which doesn't happen all the time. I'd wake up feeling really groggy at 6, then after one or two dreams and waking up again, I feel like a different person! Also, on most nights, I wake up in the 2 - 3 am window. I sometimes go to the toilet at that time. I try to get back to sleep after that, but if I can't, I'll just lie down in the dark and do the PoTS. I've used the computer during those times (using UV blocking glasses, too! ) but it has a negative effect the next day -- burning eyes and irritable mood. Sleep is really high on my priority list, no matter how weird my sleep schedule is I try to make it a point to get the rest. With proper sleep, the effort required to control programs from system1 behaviour becomes less. I think someone mentioned that it's a reverse causality where pathological traits emerge more easily when a person is sleep deprived, that sounds kind of accurate.

 

[Gaby]

"Night Owls" exhibit undesirable brain changes:

Different neural structures found in the brains of night owls

http://www.sott.net/article/269167-Different-neural-structures-found-in-the-brains-of-night-owls

In the new research on 59 participants, those who were confirmed night owls (preferring late to bed and late to rise) had lower integrity of the white matter in various areas of the brain (Rosenberg et al., 2014).

Lower integrity in these areas has been linked to depression and cognitive instability.

This research doesn't tell us what the relationship is, but the authors guess that it may be related to 'social jet-lag'.

Social jet-lag comes about because night owls are forced to live - as most of us are - like early risers. Work, school and other institutions mostly require early rising, which, for night owls, causes problems.

As night owls find it difficult to get to sleep early, they tend to carry large amounts of sleep debt. In other words, they're exhausted all the time.

As a result, they tend to be larger consumers of caffeine and other stimulants, in order to counteract their sleep debt.

Who's a night owl?

Night owls make up around 20% of the population, with about 10% of us being larks - preferring to sleep early and rise early.

The rest of us are balanced inbetween. This means about 70% should be able to adapt to either rising early or sleeping later, as long as they stick to good sleep habits (see: How to Fall Asleep Fast).

Men are more likely to be night owls - this seems to be related to higher levels of testosterone. This is why adolescent males have the tendency to be extreme night owls, staying up all night and sleeping in all day.

Naturally, then, women, along with the elderly of both sexes, are more likely to be larks.

So the data does seem to point that night owls exhibit more psychopathology.

 

[Psalehesost]

"Night Owls" exhibit undesirable brain changes: [...]

So the data does seem to point that night owls exhibit more psychopathology.

I wonder which tends to come first - brain problems or night owl tendencies? I.e., could habitually living with sleep debt cause the brain problems described?


As for myself, I don't really know for sure which kind of sleeper I am by nature - but I think most probably the mixed/"normal" type, but how I sleep depends a lot on the environment.

For example: At times when I have been away either sleeping near others or by myself, in places where there is far less EM radiation, I've slept normally. I don't know whether this is simply due to the smaller amount of EM radiation or also due to synchronizing with others around me. In any case, it works.

But when I am where I now live, in the middle of a city and surrounded by EM radiation, and with a "smart meter" in the house to boot, then at least during the winter half of the year there is often no pattern whatsoever to my sleep. (Though yet another factor here is the darkness during winter here in Sweden - only late morning to early afternoon is bright. But the change when I come home from elsewhere is so rapid that I think it cannot account for it alone.)

In the summer, things are a bit better even here, though I feel much better when away from the city.

Anyhow, I seem to have two sleep "modes": Normal and disordered. I follow the normal sleep mode when in a healthy environment, and sometimes even when living here. When living here, though, I easily switch into the disordered one. This means that I stay awake and active until my mind can no longer focus, and then sleep longer than usual. So the "days" become variably longer and my sleep has no real pattern at all. Sometimes I get tired more quickly, though, and a "day" for me becomes quite short. And sometimes sleep becomes biphasic (or multi-phasic) for a day or two.

So right now, I kind of switch back and forth between that and "normal". And I hope it doesn't cause too much harm. (While I feel little in the way of ill effects, that doesn't mean there aren't any.)

EDIT: After a period of mainly the "disordered" pattern, I presently try to keep to the "normal", or as close to it as I can get. It is harder to fall asleep here, where I live - my mind often soon firing up with lots of activity, including productive work, when I lie down to sleep - so "normal" easily turns into "night owl" even when a pattern of some kind is kept.

 

[Gaby]

I feel better when I get up early and go to bed at a decent hour. When I force myself to stay up even though I'm sleepy, I feel dispersed and low. It can take me several days to go back to normal, so I'm trying to respect more my need to go to bed at a decent hour. I'm also trying melatonin which makes me sleep profoundly and helps me to wake up early.