"Night Owls" more likely to exhibit psychopathology?

[Psalehesost]

I feel better when I get up early and go to bed at a decent hour. When I force myself to stay up even though I'm sleepy, I feel dispersed and low. It can take me several days to go back to normal, so I'm trying to respect more my need to go to bed at a decent hour. I'm also trying melatonin which makes me sleep profoundly and helps me to wake up early.

My mind generally feels better then, too - and physical energy level is better in the days afterward as well. But in my case, staying awake is more a matter of a second wind that doesn't let up for a number of hours. Something "switches on" and I have a lot of energy - though it feels like something else in me, which I can't define, is somehow missing.

One thing I try to keep in mind and which seems to help is planning meal times. If I don't eat in the evening, I often find myself going to bed much sooner. (Though, in this environment, it may still take several hours before my mind winds down.) Each meal of meat and fat, for me, seems to provide about 5-6 hours of energy. When I don't have that supply, that late-night burst of energy cannot switch on. (I find for some reason that bone broth can be had a bit later, though.)

As for melatonin, unfortunately it is illegal here in Sweden - which is funny since its production in the brain is part of the circadian rhythm and normally occurs every day. Once, when I went abroad, I did however try a tablet and slept unusually well.

 

[williamsj]

I think there are small bits of knowledge missing here!

When I was in my youth ( 17 - 21 ) I was in the merchant navy as an engineering officer; This meant that I worked standard marine shifts ( 00:00, 04:00, 0800, 12:00, 16:00, 20:00 ) - ( 23:59, 03:59, 07:59, 11:59, 15:59, 19:59); These are shifts where you work 4 hours, sleep/rest 8 hours, work 4 hours, sleep/rest 8 hours etc

Following from this, I worked shift work as engineer in several hospitals, and since I then retrained as an IT specialist, have worked hours that most people could not even imagine..

I can thus jump out of bed at 06:00 in the morning and start work, I can equally well stay up until 03:00 - 04:00 working on a serious problem.

There are people in this world: Doctors, Nurses, Social workers, (ANYONE in a 24/7 support environment) that cannot sleep by "normal rules".

Are we all psychopaths?

 

[Gaby]

Are we all psychopaths?

I don't think so! Though I've experienced those shifts and its effects in myself and in many others. I've worked long hours in the night and although you can pull it off, you are certainly don't fit to work the next morning even if you think you can. Like the article says, "depression and cognitive instability" will be one way to describe it. Other effects have to do with increased mortality from heart disease, obesity and other diseases.

Nothing like a good night sleep.

Now there are actually rights where doctors are allowed to go home after a night shift. It is psychopathic and irresponsible for a system to expect its staff to work 36 hours straight and expect you to be fully cognizant when treating a vulnerable patient. And it is crazy to go through it as if it is a normal thing.

 

[Keit]

I don't think so! Though I've experienced those shifts and its effects in myself and in many others. I've worked long hours in the night and although you can pull it off, you are certainly don't fit to work the next morning even if you think you can. Like the article says, "depression and cognitive instability" will be one way to describe it. Other effects have to do with increased mortality from heart disease, obesity and other diseases.

Yeah, there is also research that talks about sleep deprivation affecting moral judgment, which could also mean that a person may exhibit lower levels of empathy than usual.

Research has shown that bad sleep can adversely affect a person's physical health and emotional well-being. However, the amount of sleep one gets can also influence his or her decision-making. A study published in the March 1st issue of the journal SLEEP finds that sleep deprivation impairs the ability to integrate emotion and cognition to guide moral judgments. [...]

According to Dr. Killgore, these findings do not suggest that sleep deprivation leads to a decline in "morality" or in the quality of moral beliefs, but a latency to respond and the change in the leniency or permissiveness of response style as evidenced by the tendency to decide that particular courses of action were "appropriate" before and after sleep loss.

"Our results simply suggest that when sleep deprived, individuals appear to be selectively slower in their deliberations about moral personal dilemmas relative to other types of dilemmas," said Killgore.

The present findings may have implications for those in occupations that frequently require periods of extended sleep loss and in which real-world moral dilemmas may be encountered (e.g., emergency medical services, military personnel in combat, fire/rescue workers), noted Killgore. When sleep deprived, such personnel may experience greater difficulty reaching morally based decisions under emotionally evocative circumstances and may be prone to choosing courses of action that differ from those that they would have chosen in a fully rested state, added Killgore.

 

[williamsj]

Yeah, there is also research that talks about sleep deprivation affecting moral judgment, which could also mean that a person may exhibit lower levels of empathy than usual.

I was not talking of sleep deprivation, but rather what most people would call "different" hours of work:

At sea I used to work 8 hours; mainly 04:00-08:00 and 16:00-20:00.
In the Hospitals we worked what is called continental shift, meaning 07:00-15:00, 15:00-23:00 or 23:00-07:00.
In IT I have worked work split shits 05:00 - 13:00 or 11:00 - 19:00, but also cover call-out of 24/7.

The working of night hours applies to a fairly large percentage of the working population. (Engineers of many kinds, all of the medical profession, most involved in distribution logistics, winter road clearance, armed forces; in point of fact any service industry.).

 

[Beau]

I think there are small bits of knowledge missing here!

When I was in my youth ( 17 - 21 ) I was in the merchant navy as an engineering officer; This meant that I worked standard marine shifts ( 00:00, 04:00, 0800, 12:00, 16:00, 20:00 ) - ( 23:59, 03:59, 07:59, 11:59, 15:59, 19:59); These are shifts where you work 4 hours, sleep/rest 8 hours, work 4 hours, sleep/rest 8 hours etc

Following from this, I worked shift work as engineer in several hospitals, and since I then retrained as an IT specialist, have worked hours that most people could not even imagine..

I can thus jump out of bed at 06:00 in the morning and start work, I can equally well stay up until 03:00 - 04:00 working on a serious problem.

There are people in this world: Doctors, Nurses, Social workers, (ANYONE in a 24/7 support environment) that cannot sleep by "normal rules".

Are we all psychopaths?

Being a "night owl" is much different than staying up late or to the early morning because of shift work. Night owls are people who naturally sleep during the day and stay up all night, regardless of their working hours. I don't think that the two are mutually exclusive, but many people work night hours due to necessity, like your hours in the navy. Sometimes, there is no other choice and a job is needed because the bills have to paid. That doesn't mean that anyone who works night hours is a psychopath, so to ask "are we all psychopaths" seems to be a rather emotional reaction. Obviously not ALL people who are night owls are psychopaths either, but question is being asked whether night owls are affected by the problems arising from messed up sleep cycles and whether that leads to psychopathology. The book Lights Out goes into detail just why proper sleep is important, and that includes sleeping at proper times and not staying up late. It's not about "following the rules", but doing what is best for your health.

 

[williamsj]

Being a "night owl" is much different than staying up late or to the early morning because of shift work. Night owls are people who naturally sleep during the day and stay up all night, regardless of their working hours. I don't think that the two are mutually exclusive, but many people work night hours due to necessity, like your hours in the navy. Sometimes, there is no other choice and a job is needed because the bills have to paid. That doesn't mean that anyone who works night hours is a psychopath, so to ask "are we all psychopaths" seems to be a rather emotional reaction. Obviously not ALL people who are night owls are psychopaths either, but question is being asked whether night owls are affected by the problems arising from messed up sleep cycles and whether that leads to psychopathology. The book Lights Out goes into detail just why proper sleep is important, and that includes sleeping at proper times and not staying up late. It's not about "following the rules", but doing what is best for your health.

I think there is a slight misunderstanding here in terms of linguistics:

_http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_owl_(person)

A night owl or evening person is a person who tends to stay up until late at night.
The opposite of a night owl is an early bird, a lark as opposed to owl, someone who tends to begin sleeping at a time that is considered early and also wakes early. In several countries, early birds are called "A-people" and night owls are called "B-people."[1][2] Researchers traditionally use the terms "morningness" and "eveningness"[3] for the two chronotypes."

 

[Laura]

"Psychopathology" doesn't mean being a psychopath but rather having/developing some pathology of the brain/personality. It consists of many features of people's mental health considered as a whole.

 

[mada85]

My mind generally feels better then, too - and physical energy level is better in the days afterward as well. But in my case, staying awake is more a matter of a second wind that doesn't let up for a number of hours. Something "switches on" and I have a lot of energy - though it feels like something else in me, which I can't define, is somehow missing.

Have you read Adrenal Fatigue by J Wilson? What you describe is a common symptom of adrenal fatigue. By staying awake after the body says it's time to sleep, the adrenals kick in and give one this second wind. But this does in fact exhaust the adrenals and leads to adrenal fatigue.

Wilson says:

When to Sleep

For people with adrenal fatigue (most people), it is important to be in bed and asleep before your second wind hits at about 11.00pm. Riding your second wind and staying up until 1.00 or 2.00 in the morning will further exhaust your adrenals, even though you may feel more energetic during that time than you have felt all day. In order to avoid this pitfall, make sure that you are in bed and on your way to sleep before 10.30pm, so that your adrenal glands do not have a chance to kick into overdrive for that second wind.

 

[mabar]

My mind generally feels better then, too - and physical energy level is better in the days afterward as well. But in my case, staying awake is more a matter of a second wind that doesn't let up for a number of hours. Something "switches on" and I have a lot of energy - though it feels like something else in me, which I can't define, is somehow missing.

Have you read Adrenal Fatigue by J Wilson? What you describe is a common symptom of adrenal fatigue. By staying awake after the body says it's time to sleep, the adrenals kick in and give one this second wind. But this does in fact exhaust the adrenals and leads to adrenal fatigue.

Wilson says:

When to Sleep

For people with adrenal fatigue (most people), it is important to be in bed and asleep before your second wind hits at about 11.00pm. Riding your second wind and staying up until 1.00 or 2.00 in the morning will further exhaust your adrenals, even though you may feel more energetic during that time than you have felt all day. In order to avoid this pitfall, make sure that you are in bed and on your way to sleep before 10.30pm, so that your adrenal glands do not have a chance to kick into overdrive for that second wind.

Thanks, this information helps to break/change my vicious cycle of sleeping late, usually by 1pm.

 

[mabar]

Correction: its 1 am, not pm.

 

[Psalehesost]

My mind generally feels better then, too - and physical energy level is better in the days afterward as well. But in my case, staying awake is more a matter of a second wind that doesn't let up for a number of hours. Something "switches on" and I have a lot of energy - though it feels like something else in me, which I can't define, is somehow missing.

Have you read Adrenal Fatigue by J Wilson? What you describe is a common symptom of adrenal fatigue. By staying awake after the body says it's time to sleep, the adrenals kick in and give one this second wind. But this does in fact exhaust the adrenals and leads to adrenal fatigue.

Wilson says:

When to Sleep

For people with adrenal fatigue (most people), it is important to be in bed and asleep before your second wind hits at about 11.00pm. Riding your second wind and staying up until 1.00 or 2.00 in the morning will further exhaust your adrenals, even though you may feel more energetic during that time than you have felt all day. In order to avoid this pitfall, make sure that you are in bed and on your way to sleep before 10.30pm, so that your adrenal glands do not have a chance to kick into overdrive for that second wind.

No, I haven't read it. So for now I've been searching the forum for more info on adrenal fatigue. Some other things that are part of the picture of the earlier stages fit me as well - e.g. being sluggish for a time in the morning, and craving lots of salt.

It's another thing to keep in mind, so thanks for bringing it up. Since I lived through my teens with a screwed up / chaotic sleep pattern, it wouldn't surprise me if adrenal function was badly stressed then and hasn't recovered yet. (There was also plenty of an emotional nature to stress the adrenals back then.)

During the summer half of the year, when light/darkness differs a lot, I know it's possible for me, even here, to maintain a sleep pattern corresponding to a "morning lark". (I did so during the summer of 2012, as well as during part of the summer this year.) Sleep is still not as good here at "home" - less refreshing, and slips more likely - still, during the summer half of the year it is generally easy to maintain.

During the winter half it is harder - but I can work on reducing the number of days I stay up late (or at times even pull all-nighters - which happens when I have stayed up late and then want to synchronize my sleep pattern with that of others or required by life, by staying up until early evening the next day).

When I mentioned the second wind not "letting up for a number of hours", I mean that the burst of energy often lasts me even longer than until 1.00 or 2.00 in the morning - often until about 4.00 or so. The curious thing about the second wind is that it seems dependent on where I am - when I've been away to other places, with others as well as in an environment with less EM radiation, it doesn't present the same issue; even if I stay up a bit longer (like 23.00 or a bit beyond that), I have an easy time falling asleep.

There are also more aspects of energy level that have been the primary thing on my mind. The main one, since I found out about that, is iron overload. When it was measured, together with a high ferritin level, I had - which is linked to high ferritin by studies - very high LDL cholesterol together with high triglycerides, and very low HDL cholesterol. That, together with energy level, seems to have gradually improved with the use of EDTA for chelating iron.

But EDTA also brings with it the need for mineral supplementation, and this has been lacking - and energy levels may improve further with that.

Going back to adrenal fatigue, among the supplements mentioned in relation to it, I've had plenty of magnesium over the past 1 1/2 year, which may have helped some - but I guess it's time to look into the rest for that, along with further mineral supplementation to compensate for the use of EDTA. And also to work on habits, and try to resist those that stress the adrenals needlessly.

 

[cubbex]

I have a weird condition and I think my sleep cycles are reversed or something. Through the day I'm ok but at 3 pm or 4 pm my brain goes off, is like he just says no blood for me in this hour, and it's not because I just ate something before or I haven't eaten, I just can't stay awake unless I want a headache and have a bad mood, sometimes in public transport I faint waiting to reach home. But at night, I may be super tired, wanting to sleep so much, but when my head touch the pillow it doesn't matter how tired I am, my mind is alert and a flow of nonsense come to my mind and I can't sleep. I don't know is weird, also is easier to study at night.

Breathing helps sometimes, if I breath deep and think or focus on the cosmic mind or something, I go off and sleep.

 

[shijing]

I have a weird condition and I think my sleep cycles are reversed or something. Through the day I'm ok but at 3 pm or 4 pm my brain goes off, is like he just says no blood for me in this hour, and it's not because I just ate something before or I haven't eaten, I just can't stay awake unless I want a headache and have a bad mood, sometimes in public transport I faint waiting to reach home. But at night, I may be super tired, wanting to sleep so much, but when my head touch the pillow it doesn't matter how tired I am, my mind is alert and a flow of nonsense come to my mind and I can't sleep. I don't know is weird, also is easier to study at night.

That sounds a lot like adrenal fatigue to me -- have you seen the thread on it here? There's more information on it here and there if you do a search on the same term.

 

[cubbex]

I have a weird condition and I think my sleep cycles are reversed or something. Through the day I'm ok but at 3 pm or 4 pm my brain goes off, is like he just says no blood for me in this hour, and it's not because I just ate something before or I haven't eaten, I just can't stay awake unless I want a headache and have a bad mood, sometimes in public transport I faint waiting to reach home. But at night, I may be super tired, wanting to sleep so much, but when my head touch the pillow it doesn't matter how tired I am, my mind is alert and a flow of nonsense come to my mind and I can't sleep. I don't know is weird, also is easier to study at night.

That sounds a lot like adrenal fatigue to me -- have you seen the thread on it here? There's more information on it here and there if you do a search on the same term.

I wasn't aware of it, i'm going to read it as I was able to control it through one period but then everything started to happen again. Fun thing is, I don't drink coffee, tea, soda, or anything like that.

Thank you.