No Longer Interested in Sex

I have been meaning to read some of Dobrowski's work as I have seen various references to his work here on the forum and am very interested. I have just not gotten around to his work yet - so much to read and learn! I think I will bump him up the list and try to find some of his work very soon. (currently working on Cleckley's "Caricature of Love" as referenced on thread "Cupid's Poisoned Arrow" book review).

All pieces of the puzzle, and I love detective work!

I love detective work too! :cool2:
Yes, there is SO much to read, so little time. My eyes are bugging out from the last 2 days of reading. oy!
fwi, below see Dabrowski's explanations--when you have the time :lol:
I will look into 'Caricature of Love' too. This is a 'hot' topic!


FWIW, here's Dabrowski's explanations of sex at different levels of development from his last book, "Multilevelness of Emotional and Instinctive Functions". Level I is primary integration (i.e., the level of psychopaths and normal but morally weak people), which Dabrowski hypothesized comprised up to 65% of the general population. Level V is secondary integration (i.e., the "second born") in which the sex instinct is completely sublimated to other forms of creativity and love. For more on these levels, see http://members.shaw.ca/positivedisintegration/levelIandII.htm

Sexual Behavior

Level I

Sexual behavior is undifferentiated: it is controlled entirely by biological factors. It is directed towards more or less attractive but stereotype representatives of the opposite sex. It is marked by lack of sensitivity and consideration for the needs of the partner. Sexual needs are imposed on the other without a feeling of personal relatedness; the other is an object of sexual gratification. In consequence a human relationship of love cannot be formed, equally there is no parental responsibility.

The dominance of biological factors is evident by the following traits: the lack of consideration for age, state of health, emotional condition of the partner, little inhibition in the use of force, little inhibition in sexual expression in the presence of others, sexual behavior is understood primarily in terms of its physiology and absence of retrospection and prospection in sexual fife. After the sexual act a state of depletion may follow which in some psychopathic individuals leads to violence, even murder.

Level II

Gradual loosening of the dominant biological structure of the sexual instinct takes place. This occurs through periodical states of reflection, changeable syntony with the partner, occasional retrospection and prospection, disequilibrium of sexual excitations and inhibitions. Sexual tension builds up easily, often with some inclination toward perversion but not without the consent of the partner. This indicates that sexual aggressiveness is not as strong as in primary integration. Certain sensitivity and responsibility for the partner and the family is present and may increase but because it is generally weak and unsteady it cannot be relied upon. These vacillations are a manifestation of the dynamisms of ambivalence and ambitendency.

At times the biological force of the sexual instinct diminishes due to inhibition arising from an increase of sensitivity, syntony, and consideration for the emotional needs of the partner and the family. Sexual experience is influenced at this levelby the interplay of stimuli and reactions but is not subject to clear hierarchization of values, only to occasional “moods of reflection”. Group opinion, the influence of advertising and vogues in sexual life play a big role (second factor).

In summary, sexual behavior in unilevel disintegration is governed by diverse tendencies. Occasionally they cooperate, but more often there is manifest need for a variety of sexual experiences, which may be unexpected and inharmonious. Stability and exclusivity of emotional bonds is not understood and is not sought, instead there is the facility for turnover of the objects of love. These diverse, fluctuating and alternating sexual tendencies correspond to diverse and conflicting disposing and directing centers, none of which gives direction or stability.

Level III

Reflection and valuation begin to play an increasingly significant role in the hierarchization of sexual fife. Their expression is sexual selectivity and a need for more personal and exclusive relationships. Selectivity is the result of a felt need for more meaningful emotional life; it is also the result of the ability to foresee the consequences of one’s actions. Exclusivity and stability of feelings begin to manifest strongly, as well as responsibility for the partner and the family. In sexual life emotional components prevail over physical. Sexual instinct gradually loses its character of a biological species drive and becomes an instinct with an expression individually human. The predominance of emotional over physical attachment finds its expression particularly in the need for exclusivity. Exclusive attachments lead to strong sexual inhibition, even impotence, when the partner leaves or dies. For example, in my clinical practice I met a 40 years old man, father of seven children, who became impotent after his wife left him. His impotence lasted several years until the time when his wife returned to him. This is an example of an inhibition of the lower level of an instinct (biological level of sexual drive) by a higher level of the same instinct (emotional and exclusive attachment).

Such behaviors develop as a result of the action of the dynamisms of spontaneous multilevel disintegration. These dynamisms promote the development not only of an increasing responsibility for the family but also of strong tendencies toward idealization of sexual life and seeking its fulfillment in deeply emotional relationships.

Astonishment with the phenomena of one’s own sexuality occurs when one is surprised and embarrassed by the strength of the biological level of sexual impulses arising easily and unselectively. For instance, a person experiences a wave of sexual tension but the mate is weak because of menstruation, or tiredness, seeing this he retreats and realizes with surprise that his biological urge is blind to more personal empathic consideration for the other. In consequence the urge is inhibited, looses tension, and subsides without a need of actual release.

Disquietude with oneself precipitates an experiential grasp of one’s deficiencies. To come face to face with one’s own sexual primitiveness, lack of control, or compulsions, is something of a shock. In consequence one becomes aware of deficiencies in other forms of behavior as well. A negative attitude arises toward the sexual instinct in oneself. Disquietude about one’s sexual behavior subjects it to inhibition, weakening, and differentiation which leads to its greater emotional complexity.

Inferiority toward oneself plays mainly a critical role in the evaluation of one’s sexual life; it is less essential in the diagnosis of the level of sexual behavior. It results from depressive feelings as a reaction to having yielded to various still primitive sexual manifestations and tendencies in oneself. The feeling of inferiority acts as a strong emotional factor in breaking away from the lower levels of sexual life. There is a feeling of distance from what one begins to feel to be ideal in sexual life. The individual becomes sensitive to higher, i.e. emotional and more inspiring experiences of sexual life, such as sharing experiences of beauty in nature, art, and experiences of trust. Recognition of higher and lower levels in oneself and identification with the higher ones results in a sense of confidence in opposition toward the lower ones.

Feelings of shame and guilt are essential for the diagnosis of the developmental level of sexual behavior. Shame and guilt loosen the cohesive primary structure of sexual instinct; they inhibit and weaken its biological level of control by bringing it to the higher emotional level of exclusivity and responsibility. Shame and guilt are most often recognizable in the concern over harm or embarrassment caused the partner in sexual life. Shame produces an impulse to flee, to disappear from the sight of others in order to reflect and sort out the disjunctions of one’s sexual behavior. Guilt produces the experience of heightened sensitivity to one’s primitiveness, carelessness, and inconsiderateness in relation to the partner, or to the family. Guilt generates a sense of responsibility. Guilt here acquires the deeper meaning of feeling responsible for failure in loyalty towards one’s ideal: for betraying one’s ideal.

Dissatisfaction with oneself is of great significance in the diagnosis of a level of a function. It is a more global diagnostic dynamists than those previously discussed. Dissatisfaction is an expression of strong discontent with yielding often to frequently arising sexual impulses. It is thus a measure of an already occurring separation from lower levels of biological functioning. Dissatisfaction brings about inhibition of primitive behaviors in oneself and prevents their unchecked expression. As a pervasive feeling it produces a state of alertness to oppose such expression in their incipience. Dissatisfaction intensifies the need for endowing sexual life with deeper emotional meaning. It thus builds a bridge toward higher more personal levels and more individual, levels of sexual experience.

Positive maladjustment is manifested by an awareness already on a higher level of the disparity between the situation at hand and one’s own evaluation of it. It is frequently concurrent with a program of abandoning the present level of reality “what is” and adjusting oneself to a higher reality of “what ought to be”. Positive maladjustment cooperates closely with dissatisfaction with oneself. It is, in a way an active demand to develop a hierarchy of sexual life. Positive maladjustment expresses an actively negative attitude toward primitive manifestations of the sexual instinct in one’s own life, in one’s social environment, in the exploitation of sex for effect or commercial gain, or in prescribing for others the norms of morality and individual sexual behavior. At the same time positive maladjustment is an expression of idealization of sexuality and of a need of “what ought to be” in sexual life. It may take the form of aversion to the rituals of dating, or to the competition for the favors of the opposite sex.

Creative instinct shapes sexual behavior by looking for new and more enriching expressions of sexuality. At this level of development creative instinct helps to experience the “other” and the “new” (most often also the “higher”) in sexual life. By itself the creative instinct does not enable one to develop universally toward the highest level. This is possible only in conjunction with the instinct of self-perfection. The creative instinct usually begins by a more or less extensive disintegration of the lower levels of an emotional or instinctive function, in this case of sexual behavior. This might be transiently manifested by some strong sexual primitivisms or perversions. This happens because the creative instinct by destroying sexual automatisms and stereotype sexual behaviors, acts, so to speak, upward and downward seeking new fields of expression. Nevertheless there soon arises a need for evaluation and selectivity of such expression. Emotional sensitivity accelerates this process.

Identification and Empathy introduce the emotional components of attention to the subjective needs of the partner, and of selectivity and exclusivity of relationships of love. Sexual behavior becomes a function of the more significant and more pervasive process of building a relationship.

Level IV

The organization and synthesis of the inner psychic milieu, primarily by emotional-cognitive dynamisms, such as third factor and subject-object in oneself, results in deep transformations in attitudes toward sexual fife. The ideal of exclusivity and permanence of an emotional relationship develops as a deeply reflective philosophical attitude. (By ‘philosophical’ we mean the principles a person believes in and fives by as a function of an examining and searching attitude). The loved one becomes the subject endowed with individuality and uniqueness. A program of sexual life and of its sublimation is developed through retrospection and prospection. Meditation and highly developed empathy and responsibility for the family play here a crucial role.

Self-awareness and Self-control play an important role in shaping sexual expression at this level. It is inconceivable to find a primitive manifestation of sexuality in behavior if at the same time there is a highly developed self-awareness and self-control. Both dynamisms are essential to the diagnosis of this level of sexual behavior. The lower levels of sexuality are weakened and inhibited, and replaced by higher, increasingly more exclusive and more reflective components, together with an increasing responsibility for the partner and the family. Self-awareness and self-control are not to be mistaken for self-observation or just a form of introspective checking of inner events. Rather, they provide a strong active barrier against sexual behaviors of lower levels, which is maintained without effort and without tension. At the same time they augment the need to experience more often, if not solely, sexuality of a higher level, such as one offering unique, faithful, and ideal emotional relations.

Subject-object in oneself takes sexual life as an object of penetrating observations and experiences. It interrupts frequently and systematically the “habitual routine” and turns a person into a sharp observer of himself. Example: “In this moment of a sudden vision of myself I saw a dissociation -- on one side my attraction toward an almost perfectly beautiful body, on the other a repelling commonness of sexual excitement, its species appeal and its common animal quality. My ‘physical’ rapture broke like a soap bubble”. Sexual instinct, as in this example, is subject to a split between its lower level, which grows weaker and is being transformed, and its higher level approaching to personality and its ideal.

Third factor works toward a high level of sexual life by separating and selecting what is to be curtailed and eliminated from what is to be accepted and developed. Third factor determines what constitutes a positive or a negative experience in relation to higher and lower levels of sexual fife. It eliminates all that is animalistic and selects all that is authentic, individual, social, and empathic. Third factor thus chooses exclusivity of emotional ties, responsibility for the partner and the family, and the unrepeatability of the union of love. In cooperation with empathy, self-control, self-awareness, prospection, retrospection, third factor creates a ‘school’ of marital and family life. Example: “I would not exchange for anything her unique ‘power’ over me. Always unity of the physical with the moral and the spiritual. Union of minds and hearts, never the physical union alone. I feel disgust toward the tyranny of the physical aspect of love, but in its spiritual aspect I feel close to something like an ‘immortality of sex’ .
Inner psychic transformation acts in close cooperation with all other dynamisms of level IV. Sexual needs and their realization undergo a deep change so that their fulfillment occurs in harmony with the higher emotional and experiential aspirations of the individual. No external or internal sexual stimuli are accepted without first being screened and modified, if necessary, to harmonize with the ideal. Under the influence of this dynamism sexual behavior is characterized by exclusivity, responsibility, and uniqueness of emotional ties. It is marked by very deep care and concern for the family.

Education-of-oneself and Autopsychotherapy. Autopsychotherapy operates on the borderline of levels III and IV. In relation of sexual life autopsychotherapy may come into action at a time of emotional and sexual conflict in a relationship, or with the lower instinctive levels in oneself. Previous experience, memory of errors, failures and previous psychoneurotic sexual conflicts (Dąbrowski, 1972, p. 100) enrich the analysis of one’s sexual behavior and establish it at higher level. What remains from previous times are only traces of therapy, struggles and victories achieved in the development of the sexual instinct. In level IV, a program of systematic self-development, which results in lowering of inner tension but greater calmness and harmony, affects and smoothes out the unevennesses that may still be experienced in sexual life. This level of sexual life is clearly subordinated to the operation of empathy and ideal.

Identification and Empathy. It is hard to separate the activity of these dynamisms from all other dynamisms of organized multilevel disintegration since the emotions of empathy are now the dominant emotions in shaping a relationship. The sexual aspect of a relationship becomes sublimated. Love and friendship may flourish without much interference of demands from the biological level of the sexual instinct.

Identification and empathy shape understanding, sympathy, desire to help in various difficulties in life; they also express a distance and separation from lower manifestations of sexuality, such as the distinctly physiological, selfish aspect of sexual release, which acts outside of empathy, exclusivity, intellectual, esthetic and moral rapport. Moral emotions press for separation from such manifestations of sexuality. A person on this level of development cannot display symptoms of undifferentiated, irresponsible and nonexclusive sexual behavior. Such a person will love in an exclusive way, will long for fully individual contacts, will desire to create with his partner a “school of life together”, will need him intellectually, morally, esthetically for his own and their mutual growth, and for the sake of others as well. Such a person will value more highly mental, emotional, and physical individuality of his partner than his sexual potency. Such is the way to higher levels of sexuality.

Identification and empathy also promote an understanding for all manifestations of sexuality including such aspects as perversions or inversions, which are often considered only in the narrow context of rigid and insufficiently studied “norms” of human sexual behavior and emotional development. Such “norms” are provided either by social standards or by psychoanalytic theories. Let us discuss as an example necrophilia and homosexuality. In certain individuals necrophilia is a function of association of love with death. In others, who may be very idealistic, there might be a fear of actual sexual intercourse, but at the same time there is an attraction to the body of a dead person because it might feel less threatening. There may be no urge to undress the body or perform the sexual act, rather, it all occurs in the imagination. Masturbation may serve to release mental and sexual tension. In homosexuality again the expression of feeling and affection may be more important than the actual physical contact and sexual release. When emotional and human factors play a directive role then there is no interference with individual development. Such behaviors are understood as forms of stepping out of the rigid norms of common stereotypes of sexual behavior and its procreative service to society and the nation. These two dynamisms form an attitude of affirmation of sexuality in its expression on higher levels, and at the same time the acceptance and affirmation of divergent ways of sexual experience which may lead to the higher levels.

Level V

In addition to profound responsibility for the partner and his development there is also an even greater responsibility for the development and sublimation of sexual instinct in others. There is an effort to make the hierarchization of sexuality an individual reality in human life. The means to it are envisaged to be through a subordination of sexual instinct to a highly developed hierarchy of values, moral ideals, emotional and ideological closeness with the partner and responsibility for the family -- one’s own and the larger family of mankind. Friendship replaces sexual love. Spiritual union is realized through love (Kierkegaard).

Autonomy and Authentism establish the highest level of exclusivity, uniqueness, unrepeatability, and responsibility for the partner and the family. There is complete independence from the primitive (animalistic) levels of sexual instinct. Autonomy is characterized by reflection, thoughtful and idealistic, yet not naive, approach to the loved one. The physical and sensual aspect of sexuality is transcended. The power of sex is perceived and experienced as the universal power of life, to be treated with reverence and guarded against shortchanging it through moments of pleasure. However, individuality is perceived as shaped by the history of personal experience and by its aspirations.

Responsibility takes development and its direction as a whole, of which sexuality is just one of many aspects. We see an increasing attitude of responsibility for the “I-and-Thou” relationship in marriage and in friendship. No aspect of sexual aspirations and realizations at this level can be isolated from the context and experience of responsibility, as well as empathy.

Personality ideal. Under the influence of personality ideal sexuality is approached through an ideal of uniqueness, the highest exclusivity, unrepeatability, and in a certain sense, transcendence. This is expressed in the highest attitude of “I-and-Thou” in respect to the partner and the family.

Empathy together with personality ideal inspires the highest level of love that transcends separation and death.
 
"Caricature of Love" is difficult to find...Vulcan sent me a link to an e-copy, but I don't have the link anymore - I downloaded the book, but did not save the link...my browser has some problems and is not recording my history (installing new hard drive soon and so I'm not bothering to fix that). Sorry. Perhaps someone else with the link can PM it to SolarMother (so as not to have the link on the public forum).

And thank you SolarMother for the Dobrowski quote and link! Reading it now.
 
SolarMother, the link (http://members.shaw.ca/positivedisintegration/levelIandII.htm) did not work for me...was there a typo in the address?
 
FireShadow said:
SolarMother, the link (http://members.shaw.ca/positivedisintegration/levelIandII.htm) did not work for me...was there a typo in the address?

FireShadow,
I just tried it here and I see what you mean. I copied and pasted that link straight from the thread it was on along with the article, and did not try it myself (the link) since I decided to go straight to Dobrowski's article, and this was yesterday. I emailed it to myself as well, and it's the same link--I just tried it on my email too- it doesn't work. Sorry!
 
SolarMother said:
FireShadow said:
SolarMother, the link (http://members.shaw.ca/positivedisintegration/levelIandII.htm) did not work for me...was there a typo in the address?

FireShadow,
I just tried it here and I see what you mean. I copied and pasted that link straight from the thread it was on along with the article, and did not try it myself (the link) since I decided to go straight to Dobrowski's article, and this was yesterday. I emailed it to myself as well, and it's the same link--I just tried it on my email too- it doesn't work. Sorry!

Ah, well, no worries, I will just have to do some searches. The quote was interesting, though. Thanks.
 
FireShadow said:
"Caricature of Love" is difficult to find...Vulcan sent me a link to an e-copy, but I don't have the link anymore - I downloaded the book, but did not save the link...my browser has some problems and is not recording my history (installing new hard drive soon and so I'm not bothering to fix that). Sorry. Perhaps someone else with the link can PM it to SolarMother (so as not to have the link on the public forum).

And thank you SolarMother for the Dobrowski quote and link! Reading it now.

Ah well...no worries!
FireShadow, I am reading far too much and need to take a break as it stands--- which I will be forced to do since I am going away for a few days to a place with no internet access starting tomorrow, like it or not! I have been having far too many 'blonde moments' today, and that is a danger sign! :nuts:

You and hubby have a peaceful and restful winter solstice time. :zzz:
 
SolarMother said:
Ah well...no worries!
FireShadow, I am reading far too much and need to take a break as it stands--- which I will be forced to do since I am going away for a few days to a place with no internet access starting tomorrow, like it or not! I have been having far too many 'blonde moments' today, and that is a danger sign! :nuts:

You and hubby have a peaceful and restful winter solstice time. :zzz:

What!? No internet??? How will you live? Just joking of course. A peaceful and restful winter solstice to you and yours as well. :)
 
Two days ago, I did the E.E exercise and i felt a strong pressure on my body, on completion the exercise, the sexual energy was strong and could not deal with that, I had to download it. So I guess it must be part of the creative center use as a food source for STS. However, I have been able to identify certain triggers of my sexual energy and apply the restraint.

Being a problem with the eye of others, is a great family pressure. I guess they thought I'm gay or an old-man premature :lol: because I'm just struggling internally with the food of STS, the attack comes from my family. And just to say "there are things more important than just having sex" does not seem a reasonable response to their belief systems. Being a man, is important have a mountains of women.

A person who studied with me in high school, he has problems of delay or as they say humbly: "special " these days I write the following:

"Do you know of a nightclub? I know that no one in life will accept me as I am, I know. So I go to pay cash. I'm tired of being looked at differently, but I'm accustomed for them to call me crazy. I'll go with a prostitute to show that I can conquer and have sex too.
... ... ... ... ... ..

Is that when I have a girlfriend, I do not want to she left me for being a rookie, at least I lie to that I had relationships and will not be so new."


And as it gains knowledge about the misunderstanding about love, it is difficult to try to have a relationship. Identify the need to be happy for the kind of person who is on our side. The external search to our whims. Once identified, there is nothing more than looking outside. And sex seems to take a different perspective but to determine that cause the physical attraction and this making that decrease the uncontrolled sexual.

Others say they have no sexual problems, just because always have girls. And their answers are just a problem, "get yourself a girlfriend to keep you busy and enjoy the life"... ENJOY THE LIFE... a life that just turn around over my reproductive organ? The world seems smaller.


ADD Can the sucubus and incubus dreams, have some connection with the start of the internal struggle for control of the creative energy?... Some kind of deviant sexual abnormal?.
 
FireShadow said:
Perceval said:
Quick question FireShadow: are you saying that the idea of being physically intimate with your husband repulses you?

It is not so much the idea of sex with my husband that repulses me, but the idea of sex with anyone that repulses. The whole idea of sex seems so "base" and "tiresome". I find myself turned off to all the sexuality in the movies and music as well. Am I turning into a prude? I hope not. I think that I may be responding to the feeling of being "bombarded" with messages I do not want. I tend to get more resistant the more I am "pressured" into something and society does indeed seem to be pressuring everyone to be sexual. My current attitude came as a surprise to me as I used to "revel" in sexuality.

The problem is that my husband does still want sex and I love him. With my resistance to the idea, I have to work around my attitudes and get my mind "into" it in order to "get myself in the mood" so to speak. My worry is what this will do to the relationship.

I think you have these feelings because in your more youthfull years you used to have sex for experimentation in some cases and it ,maybe, wear you out. You might not even acknowledged that at that time but it grew on you as you got older as you find it less and less exciting. This went along also with the hormonal changes and at a given point it turned into a repulsion.
I experienced small ounces of repulsion at given times when i looked objectively at what i had engaged in and how superficialy it's been all trated but the hunger and the need takes precedence as usual and i keep on being interested as i have always been.

As far as the advertising goes , stop watching tv or buying magazines or keep an open ear at waht other people talk about sex . It's meaningless information and subject of worry. I worried terribly about it in my childhood when my grandmother caught me masturbating and told me i'll have severe headaches in my youth because oof it or i'll faint, i've been in my teens cause many of my schoolmates were ''experiencing '' for the first time ( what a miracle , wahat a pain) and i didn't and as years went by i even sacrified many important things pondering over and over the transformation that will derive from my sexual activity. Isaw it indeed as an awakening or a transformation back then..
 
You can talk about this with your husband as well. I really hope he will understand and won't insist to put your ''body'' to business. You even said you have to put your mind into it but usually when it comes to sex you just have to let go which i think becomes more difficult and displeasing if you're not ''tuned'' into letting go..But stop fretting and start to explore other things in order to forget about this or what will your husband tell you or what it's been advertised on this topic. Maybe is just the time to focus on other arias of your inner self and after a while you'll feel a boast or a transformation of your sexual life with your husband. :)

Edit: fixed spelling
 
Alma.Innovadora said:
Others say they have no sexual problems, just because always have girls. And their answers are just a problem, "get yourself a girlfriend to keep you busy and enjoy the life"... ENJOY THE LIFE... a life that just turn around over my reproductive organ? The world seems smaller.


ADD Can the sucubus and incubus dreams, have some connection with the start of the internal struggle for control of the creative energy?... Some kind of deviant sexual abnormal?.


Don't look at it as a deviant sexual abnormal or as an internal struggle necessarily. They may all encompass your spiritual and sexual evolution regardlees of how many girlfriends you get or whether you enjoy life or not. Many sexual active people called enjoyment the trivial dimension of their casual sex adventures which is more linked with chasing women then with actually pleasing them or with performance in terms of 3 rd D STS. Why bother? You don't have to doubt that your private , intimate enrichment of your sexual life depends mainly on your instincts and imagination. For the suitable parner will be one consummate lover at a time instead of all consuming man.
 
Well, Fireshadow after reading all you've said on the matter, I understand exactly where you are coming from. After I'd read what your thoughts were and how you felt about relationships vs sex. I thought I'd written it. I agree with and understand your view. I don't think you need any help. I think you are enlightened.

Although if you remain in a relationship, its going to be difficult if your partner continues to have urges. After my last relationship which I have written about on these forums, I decided to never again enter into a sexual relationship. I'm OK with that as I really have lost the urge to indulge. Even thinking about having sex at my age makes me cringe with....uuuummm....its absurd.

I've got nothing left to prove. I've produced three sons who are all academics and since September, I'm a grandfather. If I want to get creative, I'll do it in another way, write, paint, make music or whatever. I'm over it. The idea of people having sex at my age makes me laugh.

In support of this unpopular or odd view, the vedas suggests that people should retire from sex life after 50 and contemplate their lives and concentrate on further spiritual growth. That's why getting old is a valuable time. Enjoy it and don't feel guilty.
 
wanderer33 said:
Well, Fireshadow after reading all you've said on the matter, I understand exactly where you are coming from. After I'd read what your thoughts were and how you felt about relationships vs sex. I thought I'd written it. I agree with and understand your view. I don't think you need any help. I think you are enlightened.

Why enlightened?
She also mentions along the thread that she do not want to see if there is anything wrong with her physiology or otherwise.
I dont think that is an enlightened attitude. More like avoidant.

wanderer33 said:
Although if you remain in a relationship, its going to be difficult if your partner continues to have urges. After my last relationship which I have written about on these forums, I decided to never again enter into a sexual relationship. I'm OK with that as I really have lost the urge to indulge. Even thinking about having sex at my age makes me cringe with....uuuummm....its absurd.

Why absurd? One of the ways of thinking about sex is that a way of relating, a way of communion between two souls.
Something that is rare in our reality, but nevertheless possible?

wanderer33 said:
I've got nothing left to prove. I've produced three sons who are all academics and since September, I'm a grandfather. If I want to get creative, I'll do it in another way, write, paint, make music or whatever. I'm over it. The idea of people having sex at my age makes me laugh.

Again, sex can be used as a way to be intimate with someone... what is laughable about that?

wanderer33 said:
In support of this unpopular or odd view, the vedas suggests that people should retire from sex life after 50 and contemplate their lives and concentrate on further spiritual growth. That's why getting old is a valuable time. Enjoy it and don't feel guilty.

There is also the possibility that the vedas are corrupted as are the other books of major religions.
Maybe the retire from sex, is another trap for just a different public?
I understand lowered libido, since mine lowered since starting EE, but this kind of attitude in relation of sex, for me just gives it a blown out of proportion importance.
Think about it, profound rejection of sex is kinda the same as profound desire of sex. Both being states resulting of unproductive mental associations with the act.
If it happens, the loss of sex drive should be natural, not disease or lack of nourishment induced, and I think shoud bring no repulsion, but a deeper understanding of the function and when to use it.

Of course, I can be brutally wrong in my views.
 
Iron said:
Why enlightened?
She also mentions along the thread that she do not want to see if there is anything wrong with her physiology or otherwise.
I dont think that is an enlightened attitude. More like avoidant.

Iron, I am thinking that you did not really understand what I was saying (perhaps my writing was not clear).

But, I only ever said that I did not want to "fix it" That was meant as an admission of something I observed in myself, not as a declaration of what I was willing or not willing to look at.

I have several times discussed the possibility of hormones being a factor (menopausal and those associated with "orgasm-based sex" vs "bonding-based sex"). I have posted several times some of the things I am learning as a result of pursuing these lines of inquiry (in spite of not wanting to).

I do mention my resistances as I want to get them in the open where I can see them (it also helps those who offer mirrors to me - they can only mirror what I show). It does not mean that I am unwilling to proceed.

I apologize if I did not make this clear when posting. I will pay attention to future posts in that regard.

Again, sex can be used as a way to be intimate with someone... what is laughable about that?...There is also the possibility that the vedas are corrupted as are the other books of major religions.
Maybe the retire from sex, is another trap for just a different public?
I understand lowered libido, since mine lowered since starting EE, but this kind of attitude in relation of sex, for me just gives it a blown out of proportion importance.
Think about it, profound rejection of sex is kinda the same as profound desire of sex. Both being states resulting of unproductive mental associations with the act.
If it happens, the loss of sex drive should be natural, not disease or lack of nourishment induced, and I think shoud bring no repulsion, but a deeper understanding of the function and when to use it.

Of course, I can be brutally wrong in my views.

Yes, those vedas may be corrupted or they may reflect a piece of truth.

Depends on whether or not the theory of 2 kinds of sex is accurate. If it is, the truth would depend on what kind of sex you are engaging in - fertilization/orgasm-based sex that feeds the Lizzies/physicality and keeps us firmly rooted in physicality/feeding cycles or bonding-based sex with facilitates enlightenment/increased intimacy.

If there is only one choice and it is fertilization/orgasm-based/feeding sex, perhaps coming to a place where you are repulsed is part of a process.

In pondering your words and my reply, it occurred to me that my repulsion seems related to recently being able to really see (as opposed to just knowing about) the "feeding-behavior" aspect of sex. I have only recently been able to see that aspect as I was very entranced by the hedonism for so long. I am thinking that upon first sight, it is repulsive. I am not aware of any guilt feelings, I don't really regret much of my past, I learned a lot from it.

It may be this is just where I am at this moment. Perhaps, as I follow those lines of inquiry, experimentation and communication with Hubby, I will find out.


The Devil is surely in the details.
 
FireShadow said:
Iron, I am thinking that you did not really understand what I was saying (perhaps my writing was not clear).

But, I only ever said that I did not want to "fix it" That was meant as an admission of something I observed in myself, not as a declaration of what I was willing or not willing to look at.

I understood your sentence as not willing to look at the issue. Or at least not considering all possibilities. Since others have pointed other possibilities than seeing the feeding aspect of sex and no reply of yours about trying to see if some of these possibilities is true, I assumed that you were stuck at this thought.

FireShadow said:
I have several times discussed the possibility of hormones being a factor (menopausal and those associated with "orgasm-based sex" vs "bonding-based sex"). I have posted several times some of the things I am learning as a result of pursuing these lines of inquiry (in spite of not wanting to).

Yes, you did.

FireShadow said:
I do mention my resistances as I want to get them in the open where I can see them (it also helps those who offer mirrors to me - they can only mirror what I show). It does not mean that I am unwilling to proceed.

I apologize if I did not make this clear when posting. I will pay attention to future posts in that regard.

Now I understand you. Perhaps it was not really your fault. Maybe its me how should have read with more attention.


FireShadow said:
Yes, those vedas may be corrupted or they may reflect a piece of truth.

Depends on whether or not the theory of 2 kinds of sex is accurate. If it is, the truth would depend on what kind of sex you are engaging in - fertilization/orgasm-based sex that feeds the Lizzies/physicality and keeps us firmly rooted in physicality/feeding cycles or bonding-based sex with facilitates enlightenment/increased intimacy.

I agree with you, that the mode of sex can be of feeding the STS chain, and that with effort and knowledge perhaps can transform itself in something more sublime.


FireShadow said:
If there is only one choice and it is fertilization/orgasm-based/feeding sex, perhaps coming to a place where you are repulsed is part of a process.

In pondering your words and my reply, it occurred to me that my repulsion seems related to recently being able to really see (as opposed to just knowing about) the "feeding-behavior" aspect of sex. I have only recently been able to see that aspect as I was very entranced by the hedonism for so long. I am thinking that upon first sight, it is repulsive. I am not aware of any guilt feelings, I don't really regret much of my past, I learned a lot from it.

The part were I dont agree is on the dopamine/orgasm being the reason why couples stay longer
or not. Perhaps I would have to read the book, but it seems to me a very weak explanation. It fails to take into account narcissism, the emotional wounds that each partner sustains, their own reactive programming.
Many things more are under a relationship than just dopamine highs and lows. Perhaps those dopamine highs and lows are different in people less narcissic, in other words tending more to the STO side of things?
The problem with basing observation solely on the physiology of the body, is that for many process it is just the endpoint.
Many other things happen before this endpoint, and since the ongoing discoveries that the mind controls more process to the genetic level than was thought before, I think that avoiding orgasms = to longer relationships is a somewhat shallow reasoning for me at the moment.

Not saying that you agree 100% with the authors of the Cupid's poisoned arrow, just trying to show you a different view, and
to try not to toss the baby out with the bathwater in this sex issue.
The thinking of many is rather black and white in this issue.
Either you must have it, and have it now, in the worst way, or you shouldnt have it, never, yuck!

FireShadow said:
It may be this is just where I am at this moment. Perhaps, as I follow those lines of inquiry, experimentation and communication with Hubby, I will find out.

I thank you for taking the time to answer this post in a so gentle manner.
And still one of the most important thing you are doing, that is to discuss with your Husband! I salute you for that... shows concern!
And for trying a alternative even feeling strongly against it... whatever you two learn don't forget to post it.

FireShadow said:
The Devil is surely in the details.

Surely is!
 
Back
Top Bottom