Non duality

[Wandering Star]

The C's say "No pain, no gain" (Suffering is necessary). But they also say "You don't need to suffer," or "Stop suffering" (So, unnecessary suffering is also a fact). You seem to argue that no suffering can be unneccessary, and that's what I object to. Suffering doesn't always function so as to resolve itself, sometimes it "perpetuates" itself. It can either weaken or strengthen our ego (false self), depending on the situation. Nondualism / self-knowledge (work on self) helps us to recognize and eliminate all unnecessary suffering.

Pain in next density by Ra (Law of One):


Session 43

March 24, 1981

RA: In the next density, fourth density, is the catalyst of physical pain used as a mechanism for the balancing process of experience?

RA: I am Ra. The use of physical pain is minimal, occurring only at the end of the fourth density incarnation.
Let us say that this physical pain is not considered too severe in third density. The catalysts of mental and spiritual pain are used in fourth density.

QUESTIONER: Why is physical pain a part of the end of fourth density?

RA: I am Ra. You would call this form of pain "fatigue."

 

[meadow_wind]

The catalysts of mental and spiritual pain are used in fourth density.

I wonder how mental and spiritual pain is felt... Does anyone know?
And what does the word "mental" refer to in this context? The intellect?
Physical and emotional pain are already horrid enough, I'm certainly not looking forward to mental and/or spiritual pain...

 

[Wandering Star]

The C's say "No pain, no gain" (Suffering is necessary). But they also say "You don't need to suffer," or "Stop suffering" (So, unnecessary suffering is also a fact). You seem to argue that no suffering can be unneccessary, and that's what I object to. Suffering doesn't always function so as to resolve itself, sometimes it "perpetuates" itself. It can either weaken or strengthen our ego (false self), depending on the situation. Nondualism / self-knowledge (work on self) helps us to recognize and eliminate all unnecessary suffering.

Third Density Pain in Ra Material (Law of One):

Session 34
March 4, 1981

QUESTIONER: Thank you. Can you provide examples of catalytic action based on what was communicated in the last session, beginning with the unmanifested self that produces the catalyst for learning?

RA: I am Ra. We have noted your interest in the catalyst for pain.

This experience is very common among your entities. Pain can affect the physical complex, but it most often affects the mental and emotional complex. In some cases, the pain is spiritual in the nature of its complex. This creates a potential for learning. The lessons to be learned vary; most often, these lessons include patience, tolerance, and the ability to apply a casual touch.

Very often, the catalyst for emotional pain, whether it be the death of the physical complex of a loved one or some other apparent loss, will simply have the opposite effect: bitterness and impatience; grief. This is a catalyst that has “gone awry.” In these cases, an additional catalyst will be provided to offer the unmanifested self new opportunities to discover the self as the omnipotent Creator that contains all that is and is filled with bliss.

 

[Alejo]

So much evil has been happening all around the world for so many millenia. Hyperdimensional aspects of evil are just mind-boggling. This can result in a significant loss of trust in "God" or universe as a sentient unity. God is all, God is life. And our life is filled with evil. So, it can appear like God is evil. It can at least appear very questionable how much trustable God really is. Or, even, how much real God is?

Do you think you could've achieved this notion without facing or experiencing/suffering some of that evil?

If your head hurts, you suffer, and you could refuse to address the source of the suffering for whatever reason, so you carry on suffering. But perhaps one day you do address it, that day you realize how unnecessarily you've suffered. So yes, unnecessary suffering is real, however and paradoxically, you couldn't have learned that without having undergone that suffering.

In hindsight it was unnecessary, and that is the correct conclusion, that is the lesson. But at the same time, without having spent all that time holding on to that suffering, you couldn't have learned how unnecessary it was and how and why you were holding on to it unnecessarily.

That's the point I am trying to make, declaring all suffering unnecessary in an abstract manner removes the sufferer from the equation, which is an integral part of the experience. It's the sufferer who learns that suffering may be unnecessary, but that sufferer won't get to that point, as you rightly point out, until some work has been done in self awareness to understand their drive to hold on to a specific kind of suffering. But everyone undergoes that lesson in very different ways and at their own pace.

Perhaps, put another way, you don't realize you've suffered unnecessarily until you've suffered unnecessarily for long enough.

 

[bozadi]

Do you think you could've achieved this notion without facing or experiencing/suffering some of that evil?

If your head hurts, you suffer, and you could refuse to address the source of the suffering for whatever reason, so you carry on suffering. But perhaps one day you do address it, that day you realize how unnecessarily you've suffered. So yes, unnecessary suffering is real, however and paradoxically, you couldn't have learned that without having undergone that suffering.

In hindsight it was unnecessary, and that is the correct conclusion, that is the lesson. But at the same time, without having spent all that time holding on to that suffering, you couldn't have learned how unnecessary it was and how and why you were holding on to it unnecessarily.

That's the point I am trying to make, declaring all suffering unnecessary in an abstract manner removes the sufferer from the equation, which is an integral part of the experience. It's the sufferer who learns that suffering may be unnecessary, but that sufferer won't get to that point, as you rightly point out, until some work has been done in self awareness to understand their drive to hold on to a specific kind of suffering. But everyone undergoes that lesson in very different ways and at their own pace.

Perhaps, put another way, you don't realize you've suffered unnecessarily until you've suffered unnecessarily for long enough.

Yes, I agree with this in general. In fact, as I said before, I have no problem with the principle that "There are no mistakes" from the viewpoint of 7D. Even if a suffering is unnecessary, this doesn't mean that Life/Universe/God is doing something unnecessary or wrong or that there's a glitch in the functioning of the Universe. Suffering caused by a lack of learning, however unnecessary, long, or stupid it may be, is still an aspect of one's learning process. Free will involves all kinds of contingencies.

As for what I don't agree with (although we don't have to agree on everything) ...

That's why I don't think a veil is meant to be broken per se, the veil is there for a purpose and we chose to live behind that veil for that purpose, it's not embracing, it's recognizing reality, IMO.

Do you still think so? Especially after I made clarifications on what I mean by "the veil", and that "breaking the veil" doesn't mean its breaking at once for all, but rather individually or group-wise as implied by the C's when they said, "What is needed is for many people to begin to make direct connections with their higher centers"?

we can indeed meditate toward higher realities, but we will come back to 3D reality eventually.

Does "coming back to 3D reality eventually" mean we should refrain from taking efforts to decrease our "3D thinking", especially in consideration of many C's statements on "Stopping 3D-thinking" and "making direct connections with one's higher centers"?

Let's also remember what the C's said 30 years ago:

A: You see, we speak to all of you when we say this. It's now time for you, as individuals, to try to move away, as much as possible, not to force yourselves, of course, but to try and move away at your own pace as much as possible, from the constraints of third density. You have all learned lessons to the level where you are more than ready to begin to prepare for fourth density. Third density involves a level of physicality and restriction and restraint and all of the things that go along with those, that you no longer need. So, therefore, even though we understand that at times it may feel comfortable to cling to this, there is time for you, and there is that word again, it is time for you to consider moving ahead and get ready for fourth density and not to be concerned with such things as time or how to free yourself from the illusion of time.

...While you are still in this third density it is still necessary for you to conform, to a certain extent, to the ways of others who are more comfortable within the realm of third density. But, as we have stated previously, perhaps it is "time" for you to begin preparing for fourth density and not concern yourself any more than is absolutely necessary with all the wheres and whys and what-fors of third density reality. This truly is behind you, now, and we know that because we can see from all levels six through one and back again in full cycle.

 

[bozadi]

Pain in next density by Ra (Law of One):


Session 43

March 24, 1981

RA: In the next density, fourth density, is the catalyst of physical pain used as a mechanism for the balancing process of experience?

RA: I am Ra. The use of physical pain is minimal, occurring only at the end of the fourth density incarnation.
Let us say that this physical pain is not considered too severe in third density. The catalysts of mental and spiritual pain are used in fourth density.

QUESTIONER: Why is physical pain a part of the end of fourth density?

RA: I am Ra. You would call this form of pain "fatigue."

Wandering Star, you have not made any explanation as to what you understand or conclude from those statements by Ra in terms of the current discussion, but let me say this: Any suffering experienced by 4D STO would have NOTHING to do with the "unnecessary suffering" caused by our ego (false self) in 3D STS, because "false self" is almost synonymous with "STS". I believe 4D STO means one has absolutely left "ego" behind. I explained previously that what I called "unncessary suffering" is closely related to the C's descriptions about our being "imprisoned" and "enslaved" by 4D STS. The torture we suffer in this sense can have nothing to do with any suffering catalyst utilized by 4D STO beings, because they are "STO", they are not slaves, they are not imprisoned. These two kinds of suffering are incomparable. And, of course, to the extent we overcome 3D thinking, we're also overcoming imprisonment and slavery.

 

[bozadi]

I wonder how mental and spiritual pain is felt... Does anyone know?
And what does the word "mental" refer to in this context? The intellect?
Physical and emotional pain are already horrid enough, I'm certainly not looking forward to mental and/or spiritual pain...

The following explanation by "Q'uo" is not specifically about 4D, I think, but maybe it can offer a general idea:

Questioner
Q’uo, this is a question I have. Could you define the difference between emotional and spiritual pain?

Q’uo
We are those of Q’uo, and are aware of your query, my sister. The human entity has three components—physical, mental/emotional and spiritual. Physical pain is obviously that of the physical body. Mental/emotional pain is still that which involves the mind or intellect and the emotions which are instinctually those of third-density humans, and spiritual pain is that pain which is involved in the spiritual complex as it is activated by the individual. Often, a mental or an emotional pain will strike so deeply that it feels as though it is striking to the very soul and most of the suffering of humankind is of this mental/emotional nature.

Purely spiritual pain is quite rare, and yet it does occur. There are those who ache for lack of connection to the essence of their spiritual selves. It is as though such an entity is attempting to make a connection and is unable to do so. However, the vast majority of entities’ suffering is experienced in the mind and emotions.

 

[bozadi]

I think some of the "pain" suffered by 4D STO relates to their empathy for the suffering of terran humanity, for instance.

A possible source of their "spiritual pain" (longing) might relate to their efforts for reaching 5D, the first "non-material" & "non-dual" density. The density of Light and Co-Creation, in Ra's terms.

I can't be sure but, in consideration of the "color" numbers referencing to "density" numbers, I suppose 1D, 3D, and 5D are kind of "primary" densities in the realm of "illusion", and, accordingly, 2D, 4D, and 6D appear to be "intermediary" densities according to the following explanation by Ra:

Questioner: Why are the red, yellow, and blue energy centers called primary centers? I think from the previous material I understand this, but is there some tracing of these primary colors back to intelligent infinity that is more profound than what you have given us?

Ra: I am Ra. We cannot say what may seem profound to an entity. The red, yellow, and blue rays are primary because they signify activity of a primary nature.

Red ray is the foundation; orange ray the movement towards yellow ray which is the ray of self-awareness and interaction. Green ray is the movement through various experiences of energy exchanges having to do with compassion and all-forgiving love to the primary blue ray which is the first ray of radiation of self regardless of any actions from another.

The green-ray entity is ineffectual in the face of blockage from other-selves. The blue-ray entity is a co-Creator. This may perhaps simply be a restatement of previous activity, but if you consider the function of the Logos as representative of the Infinite Creator in effectuating the knowing of the Creator by the Creator you may perhaps see the steps by which this may be accomplished.

 

[Wandering Star]

Wandering Star, you have not made any explanation as to what you understand or conclude from those statements by Ra in terms of the current discussion

Well, what is highlighted in bold in the texts is to get what you are order.

The relationship is obvious and needs no explanation.

My apologies for providing something that has not been requested and is not welcome.

 

[bozadi]

Well, what is highlighted in bold in the texts is to get what you are order.

The relationship is obvious and needs no explanation.

My apologies for providing something that has not been requested and is not welcome.

Wandering Star, I hope you'll not get even more angry with me, but you seem to have been experiencing a significant and possibly unnecessary suffering for some time. I perceive a deep unhappiness and fury in many of your replies. This is not new, I had made a similar criticism many weeks before, and I think this is not special to me, hopefuly. I might be right or wrong to whatever extent about this guess, but I wanted to share this opinion. By the way, I don't claim that I don't experience anything similar to (or maybe worse than) what I believe you've been experiencing.

 

[Wandering Star]

Wandering Star, I hope you'll not get even more angry with me, but you seem to have been experiencing a significant and possibly unnecessary suffering for some time.

Haha, I do have some interesting moments lately, but I'm not mad at you at all.

I just don't agree with your complaints about creation.

On the other hand, what is provided in third density STS will necessarily be different than the third density STO experience.

There is a response from the C's that says something like "no one needs help to progress" (I'm paraphrasing), in a context I think I remember of the catalyst for the experience being provided externally by the STS gentlemen.

I haven't found the session yet, but I'll keep looking.

The point is that we are where we are and we have to deal with the status quo established here.

 

[Alejo]

Do you still think so?

Yes, there is a purpose for that veil, even if the purpose is for it to be broken. So that the conscious effort can take place. If it were to happen by accident, it would be meaningless.

Does "coming back to 3D reality eventually" mean we should refrain from taking efforts to decrease our "3D thinking", especially in consideration of many C's statements on "Stopping 3D-thinking" and "making direct connections with one's higher centers"?

No.
But we still live in 3D so we do need to pay attention to this reality as thoroughly as possible.

 

[bozadi]

I just don't agree with your complaints about creation.

I don't remember making any complaints about creation. But I might be complaining subconsciously, and not being honest with myself about it.

There is a response from the C's that says something like "no one needs help to progress" (I'm paraphrasing), in a context I think I remember of the catalyst for the experience being provided externally by the STS gentlemen.

I haven't found the session yet, but I'll keep looking.

I'm not sure about the validity of that statement but, yeah, we seem to be mainly "on our own" anyway:

Q: (L) So, we are here on this planet, and we will either make it or we won't, just like Dorothy and Toto in Oz, based on our own ability to figure it out, to overcome the odds, the witch, monkeys and soldiers... (TK) Maybe what they are trying to do is give people the information, or make the information available so that people can make the choice, do they want to stay...

A: We are not "trying" to do anything. We are here to answer questions if asked. We cannot interfere.

Q: (TK) Yes, the non-interference idea is pretty clear and understandable. So, they cannot interfere...

A: And, even when we answer, you may not believe, it is up to you!

Q: (L) So, we are really on our own!

A: You always have been, and so have we, and all others, too!!

 

[bozadi]

Yes, there is a purpose for that veil, even if the purpose is for it to be broken. So that the conscious effort can take place. If it were to happen by accident, it would be meaningless.

You've been keeping the debate at a semantics level, unnecessarily. I made it clear that the veil I talk about is the "ego-veil" (body-centricity), and I never said or implied that it happened "by accident", or that it's "meaningless" (reasonless, causeless).

 

[Fluffy]

Pain in next density by Ra (Law of One):


Session 43

March 24, 1981

RA: In the next density, fourth density, is the catalyst of physical pain used as a mechanism for the balancing process of experience?

RA: I am Ra. The use of physical pain is minimal, occurring only at the end of the fourth density incarnation.
Let us say that this physical pain is not considered too severe in third density. The catalysts of mental and spiritual pain are used in fourth density.

QUESTIONER: Why is physical pain a part of the end of fourth density?

RA: I am Ra. You would call this form of pain "fatigue."

I must be at the end of 4th density then, I’m totally wrecked from not sleeping since I was half way pregnant with my 1.5 year old, fatigue is an understatement