Not being able to create another human being/soul?

[agni]

If someone was doing the Work and making progress, the last thing they would want to do is have a child to teach. That in itself is STS and mechanical thinking. It is selfish.

Well, Nienna , it is again a matter of subjectivity. You think having a child is selfish while I think it could be not.

Hi Acaja, Could you explain your reasoning as to how wanting and having a child might not be STS. I can see how having a child from the result of a rape could be seen as not being STS, but then that doesn't seem to have the wanting aspect to it.

Yeah okay, well let's say that one day you may feel deeply inside you like having a child, not that you really want it, not that you can explain it , but that you just know it because maybe for some people it makes sense, as well as for some others praticing the Work probably makes sense too. But I agree with the idea that anticipating to raise a child and teach him sounds STS.

I have slightly different perspective on it. Just because there is a deep feeling inside to do something (like having a child) does not make it valid, just like myrriad of other urges or feelings one can have, whether you really want to follow the feelings or not. I personally do not see how a choice of having a child in this STS world can be STO in any way.

Acting out of personal urge or feeling seems to me STS in nature. What a child to be has to do with these urges or deep feelings one has ?

However, I might be not seeing something and would be more than happy to find out more :)

Hi agni,

What does the child has to do ? Could the answer be in your question? That is, the child has to do nothing but BEing born, because of these feelings we describe.The child will DO and BE because of this opportunity of "doing" and "being". To be honest, I really wonder if, when we say " you shall want a child because it is STS", we do realise one simple thing : we, all around here and all around the world, are children. You are, I am, Jesus was...everyone. In the latter, the birth led to a man who choosed to dedicate his life to his fellow creatures.The consequences of a STS thinking mode are not automatically STS, thank God, or there would be no goal to live at all since the party is lost since the begginning. No point to even try. So imo if we are here to do something, (Work or whatever) we should never forget from were we come.Yet we seem to consider this fact (that we're all children) as an act of pure selfishness. I can't recall the exact thread, but I remember reading someone asking if having/wanting a pet was STS, and I think the Cs said something like" not always".

Hi Acaja,

I do not think I quite understand the point you are trying to make. I was not talking about consequential result of having a child. Child will be in position to walk path by self in own way more or less. Sure great people happen as a result of childbirth. But result has nothing to do with parents so to speak. I dare to come up with a single reason why someone would want to bring child into the world that would not be a result of STS thinking/motive/action (I am not talking about consequence of the action & how child would turn out). Personally, so far I found none. And I would be more than happy to learn something new.

I don't want to sound too new agey but, there may be a few people on this planet whose birth arose from an act of pure love. Do we allow ourselves to at least consider this possibility?

It does sound little bit new agey for my ear. Acting out of possibility instead of objectivity is wishful thinking. While it's possible, how it is applicable in reality ?

Sorry I thought there was an underlying question about procreation, since the initial topic was " is there a specific purpose for people who cannot have a child ?" . But if you see no link between the fact that we're children, the act of wanting to have child, and the Work we are trying to do, then yes, my participation has no relevance at all and I should just go.

Did I understand correctly what you are trying to say: "My way or highway" in other words ?

 

[anart]

Sorry I thought there was an underlying question about procreation, since the initial topic was " is there a specific purpose for people who cannot have a child ?" . But if you see no link between the fact that we're children, the act of wanting to have child, and the Work we are trying to do, then yes, my participation has no relevance at all and I should just go.

Acaja, I did not mean to insult you, my apologies. I was simply stating that your comments were tangential to the conversation here, not dealing directly with, as Menna said,

What I take away from the previous posts is that if you WANT to raise a child in a certain way or you feel you NEED a child for a certain reason then that is STS. Most parents don’t let children be or let them gravitate towards what they want, STS parents want their children to be like them or follow a certain path other than the child’s path.

Do you think it's possible that this topic has triggered an emotional reaction in you, which has resulted in your response?

 

[Menna]

I put want and need in capital letters because after reading the posts I believe thats why having a child is STS if you say you want one or need one for a specific reason - not because I was angry.

 

[Acaja]

Anart your reply was not an insult at all. Say what you want to say that's fine. This is feedback nonetheless.

agni, I wish I could write in my language because obviously it's hard to make my thoughts clear. Wanting to bring a child in this world, yes, that sounds STS to me too. I agree with you guys, when you "want" , your are wishful and that is a behaviour we try to avoid with the Work. But as i said before, there may be a state of being were the wanting process disappears and becomes something else. When you help someone who asks for your help, you don't really "want" to help him : you just DO. You don't do it for you but for him. And what I tried to say last (tons of :/) posts is that maybe you can be in this state regarding giving birth : let the event happen or not and don't wish for it to happen, go with the flow.

This night I thought about the following : who are we to make the decision to give birth, it looks selfish. But since we were born in this life, who are we to decide who has the right to live too ?
I'm asking you all because I'd like to hear what you think : is the fact of not wanting to have a child some sort of a desire, a desire to "want not to" ? Isn't it closing yourself somehow ?

 

[truth seeker]

This night I thought about the following : who are we to make the decision to give birth, it looks selfish. But since we were born in this life, who are we to decide who has the right to live too ?
I'm asking you all because I'd like to hear what you think : is the fact of not wanting to have a child some sort of a desire, a desire to "want not to" ? Isn't it closing yourself somehow ?

Well, in my case, I have known/felt that I didn't want to have children since I was a child myself. Over the years, some of the reasons for this have changed. When I was a kid, not only did I not want to go through the pain of childbirth (I'd say this could be more of a program) but I was also aware of how many children there were that didn't have parents. So my reasoning at the time was that I would perhaps adopt someday as there were enough children in the world who needed a home.

As an adult, the reasons have broadened. I eventually came to feel that it was selfish of me to bring a child into this world because I didn't have what I felt was necessary in order to raise a child (enough patience, ability to be fully present, etc). I have been in two relationships where the guy was actually asking me if I wanted children. I was always the one to say no. Just so you know, they already had a child each of their own previously so I wasn't holding them back in any way.

I'm at peace with my decision. The point for me is that if I'm narcissistically wounded, then how can I (prior to having done any work on myself) expect to raise someone who is by nature narcissistic? Children are born with needs and before they can speak have to, by some mechanism, be able to relate those needs to their caregiver (crying, etc). This is natural, in my opinion. It's only later on that their needs become confused or corrupted while trying to adapt to their circumstances.

While I'm actually grateful for the wounding I incurred, as it has pushed me to understand myself, I don't want to foist that upon someone else. This is not a judgement of anyone who has chosen to have children. It's just a choice I made for myself.

To me, the argument that we may be closing ourself doesn't quite make sense. Based on that argument, one could easily say why not have as many kids as possible. Why not just have one or two. In other words, aren't you denying all those other unborn souls the right to exist?

I think a good question for people to ask themselves before having children is what will I do if I don't get the child I expect. Think of the worst case scenario and be really honest with yourself. I know the pc/programmed thing to say is that I will love the child no matter what, but as we've seen so often in society that is not always the case.

It is because I appreciate what it really takes to have a child that I know I've made the best decision for myself.

I've pretty much heard all the arguments for and against, but I feel that people have a right to do what they want. For me, bringing a child into this world (or any other) is just not something I'm interested in.

 

[ana]

Anart your reply was not an insult at all. Say what you want to say that's fine. This is feedback nonetheless.

This answer contradicts the way in which you previously answered her here:

Sorry I thought there was an underlying question about procreation, since the initial topic was " is there a specific purpose for people who cannot have a child ?" . But if you see no link between the fact that we're children, the act of wanting to have child, and the Work we are trying to do, then yes, my participation has no relevance at all and I should just go.

As anart said, this answer is obviously driven by an emotional reaction, when someone is driven by emotions there is no way to think clearly, no way to see the facts, no way to disengage ourselves from the identification with our thoughts and the result is that we feel hurt when others observations don't square with ours.

Indeed your participation has relevance, you don't need to go just because your observations no longer have the value that you gave them once they are mirrored, just try to observe with new eyes, that is learning, that is how we grow. :)

 

[Smallwood]

I'm sure this adds only a little to this conversation, but I'm happy about my firm decision never to procreate. I have had too traumatic childhood myself to ever be a good parent, I'm still a child within, I need to grow up to be an adult. Perhaps, if I were to live to 80 years old, then I would perhaps have made enough progress but who child would want an 80 year old parent? Well, just my opinion.

 

[Acaja]

Ana and Anart, indeed I was driven by emotions in this precise post, not that I was taking the reply as an insult but because I was failing to express my ideas clearly while obviously expecting too much return about them. Thanks for noticing I'll remember it.

truth seeker, like you I think we should be at peace with our decision, without judjing each other. As for thinking about the worst scenario, your statement makes point...if you have expectations about your hypothetic child. My question is : is it possible to raise a child without any expectation ( not including rape ) ?

Smallwood, actually that what I meant by saying " closing yourself" because if you've already made a "firm decision" (about procreation or something else) for the rest of your life, aren't you reducing your life's perspective ?

 

[truth seeker]

truth seeker, like you I think we should be at peace with our decision, without judjing each other. As for thinking about the worst scenario, your statement makes point...if you have expectations about your hypothetic child. My question is : is it possible to raise a child without any expectation ( not including rape ) ?

Honestly, I don't think it's possible as STS beings to be without expectation at all. I do however think that when we work on ourselves, we can lessen how often we have expectations. It takes a good deal of effort and awareness though.

Smallwood, actually that what I meant by saying " closing yourself" because if you've already made a "firm decision" (about procreation or something else) for the rest of your life, aren't you reducing your life's perspective ?

By saying "reducing your life's perspective" makes it sound a bit like a judgement. The choice to have a child or not is not good or bad. It just is. When we make certain choices do some doors close? Yes, but others open. Not having children doesn't have to mean having a child free life. There are many ways to help with the raising of children. Some people adopt, some people help raise other's children (their partner's or family members or babysit or teach), some volunteer. Do you have any memories as a child of someone who wasn't your parent but who had a positive effect in your life? It happens all the time.

 

[Mrs. Peel]

I've pretty much heard all the arguments for and against, but I feel that people have a right to do what they want. For me, bringing a child into this world (or any other) is just not something I'm interested in.

I'm in agreement with Truth Seeker. Not into the mommy track at all. As for doing the Work without kids, I initially believed one wouldn't have the distractions and financial constraints of bringing up a family, and be able to devote more time to it. But then again, perhaps some (or all) of one's life lessons are to be found in the raising of the children.

To quote SpongeBob, "I just don't know, Mr. Crabbs!"

 

[Menna]

"But then again, perhaps some (or all) of one's life lessons are to be found in the raising of the children."

Very interesting perspective

I have always thought that by teaching others you also learn (about) yourself.