Objective Language

[mkrnhr]

Salut Kisito,
Est-il possible d'écrire en Anglais? C'est pour que la plupart de lecteurs puissent lire ta contribution. L'utilisation d'un traducteur automatique peut être une solution si tu n'écris pas en Anglais.

Hello Kisito,
Can you write in English? It makes it possible for all readers to read you. Using an automatic translator may help in case you do not write en English.

 

[Kisito]

The subject is fascinated and I have not a very definite idea.

Richard's response is interesting, on what appears to be sexism languages​​, namely a metaphorical representation of a thought at the time. In this sense we can think that sexist language is archaic.

Laura insisted that the English language is an evolution of French and German and thus would be more advanced.
The Anglo-Saxon languages ​​so intellectualized one which was much more instinctive.
Also we notice that English is the language that creates the most dyslexic children, as the representative of the phoneme by the instinctive or emotional was replaced by an intellectual interpretation.

Some say that the emotional language and truer than intellectualization of language, because it is close to the source! The first alphabets have been created on representations instinctive or emotional meaning was not intellectualized?

For my part the evolution of language continues to disperse us, because at the beginning there was it not a language?
Is it not lizzis who destroyed Babel, our unique language? Thus each linguistic evolution, although it is under the auspices of the culture, even if it is not a deterioration of human understanding?

 

[Jacques]

Hi Kisito,

Welcome to our forum. :)

We recommend all new members to post an introduction in the Newbies section telling us a bit about themselves, how they found the cass material, and how much of the work here they have read.

You can have a look through that board to see how others have done it.

 

[leesmith]

This is without a doubt an interesting discussion. Permit me un petit cri de coeur.

Can we dare to dream of a language that would be equal to the hope humanity harbors that, one day, we -- or one of us, at least -- will say The One, The All? I know I am as easily misled as anyone.

Just for fun, I copy down here what Rimbaud had to say, however obliquely, about language. It is genuinely interesting:
"---What's more, given every word is an idea, the day of a single universal language will dawn! Only an academic deader than a fossil could compile a dictionary no matter what the language. Just thinking about the first letter of the alphabet would drive the weak to the brink!
" This language will be of the soul, for the soul, encompassing everything, scents, sounds, colors, thought mounting thought. The poet will define the unknown quantity awaking in his era's universal soul: he would offer more than merely formalized thought or evidence of his march on Progress! He will become a propagator of progress who renders enormity a norm to be absorbed by everyone!
"This will be a materialistic future, you'll see. These poems will be built to last, brimming with Number and Harmony at its root, there will be something of Greek Poetry to them. Eternal art would have its place; poets are citizens too, after all. Poetry will no longer beat within action; it will be before it." From a letter to Paul Demeny, Charleville, May 15, 1871.

And Laura has this to say (Petty Tyrants, Chapter 47, page 323):
"...The greater the number of words for any given object, the more precise a definition can be made about it in terms of content continuum. If there are a thousand ways to say apple, by knowing all the associations, we can access the higher realm of thought from whence the idea of an apple has a deeper meaning for man. In this sense, all languages are necessary because they are all complementary. They all tell us about the extraordinary wealth and diversity and limitless possibilities of the Universe in which we exist. What is more, such study of words enables us to interact dynamically with the surrounding reality itself. Word studies develop hyperdimensional awareness which binds us to higher planes."

Let me add this. One of the best books I have read is Un amore by Dino Buzzati. It is written in that very much gendered language, Italian. It's about an architect, late '40s, who has been working hard and needs some company, a woman. He falls in love with the new girl Signora Ermelinda has on hand and begins the journey with her through hell to a resolution in the Empirean that I don't think would translate out of Italian very well. That's a pity. It is one of the most moving books I've ever read, and for all it's digging down into the revolting vulnerability that the human enigma can hold, one of the most satisfying as well.

I'm going to sit down now and make a list of all the languages I don't know, and I'm going to imagine all the great books I can't read, and have a good cry. And then I will go back to my novel, which is coming along just fine.

 

[thorbiorn]

There are some wonderful posts in this thread that give perspective on language, its role, flaws, as well as its association with the history, customs and mental habits of its speakers. For people interested in spending time learning languages, browsing through some of these may be time well spent; it has certainly cleared my own priorities, thereby influencing the underlying reasons for learning, as well as the how to go about it and how much.

Even if the French language is a prominent object for analysis, one would be able to do similar or parallel work with many other languages, a few of which like English, Spanish, Latin, German and Russian are also mentioned in this thread. Chu has this comment which has promise for all the languages not yet analyzed:

I understand, but on the other hand, you can consider yourself lucky. Because it is a great opportunity to see how programming takes place in your mind. We could be analyzing any other language, but whenever there is a slight focus on French, take it as a gift! I wish we would do this exercise with every language spoken here by forum members, actually, because a lot of clues are hidden in our own respective languages, and being too close, we can't see them unless we get an "outsider" view. It's lucky that a lot of us "foreigners" in France can try to analyze it outside of the mentality one adopts when having French as a mother tongue. So just try to have "fun" learning, if you can. It's not a criticism on YOU as an individual, if you can see it past your identification. OSIT. :)

 

[sid]

I could offer some insights into Hindi and few other languages spoken in India and how that shapes the culture. The national language, Hindi has become very prominent in the last 70 or so years after the end of British rule in India. Before that, there were the regionally spoken dialects and the Sanskrit reserved for the priests and the scholars. I don’t have the full and accurate detail of the landscape before the British rule but that is unnecessary since we understand the symbology behind the tower of Babel. Most of the Indian languages have veen derived from Sanskrit which is of Aryan origin ie Indo-European. The Atlantis/Kantek threads cover these in more detail.

Why I am referring to the British rule is because during the fight for the independence, certain words and way of speaking developed in India which was anti-British or anti-everything associated with the British (by extension the Western world). The Hindi words, “Angrez” which means “An english speaker” and “Gora” which means “A white male” are derogatory when used in general conversations since they became prominent during the independence struggle. They refer to all white people regardless they speak english or not. An uneducated commoner in India thinks that all white people speak english hence they are to be looked upon/down and treated as similar to how Britishers treated their ancestors.

The Britishers were never really deafeated by the Indians and before they left in 1947, their mother tongue, English had made enough inroads amongst the eductated upper classes in India. This naturally led to resentment and deep hatred for everything western amongst the commoners whereas the upper classes retained their position in the new independent India. They were educated and could speak English hence English also became synonymous with bring literate and educated - something everyone were to strive towards. Being able to speak English is equal to being educated in India since all of the higher education is taught in English. Since, majority of India is poor and education is unaffordable, this polarises people towards two extremes ie “the haves” and “have nots” with English(western) values vs Hindi(native) values being a central theme.

The upper educated classes also resented the Britishers as they were also being subjugated and discriminated against due to their skin colour and language accent. Post-independence, they embraced the English language as a way of lording over the uneducated masses. Besides, a lot of Institutions were well established and would have proved difficult to uproot. Being good in English was also and still seen as a way to learn the westerner’s language and beat them in the theatre of global trade and economics ie “Do unto them what they did unto you” but without guns and bayonets. The drive and motivation is not to become more objective and open new ways of learning but rather hide the imperialist intentions and acting out due to resentments and unresolved karmic debts.

An Indian, under the influence of the history, circumstances, culture and language programming will grow up and willingly learn English but will hate and resent westerners hence will not treat esoteric literature written in English as being helpful to progress. The Indian scriptures will be the preffered source of all such knowledge. The culture and the language rather plainly impresses that the western women are whores who sleep around and white men are racist and discriminatory and any intellectual works produced by such people are inferior to Indian literature. Westerners also eat cows and pigs hence they are all sinners too. Indian scriptures are true words of god and Indian history is the oldest and purest - some of these ideas are getting very cleverly re-enforced amongst the plebs via the pro-Hindu BJP government under Modi. Plus even amongst the educated classes, appointments of Indians as CEOs of the two biggest technological campanies re-enforces the idea of intellectual superiority over western world. They maybe speaking English but still thinking like a Hindi-speaker which lacks true creativity due to objective reasoning being clouded and weighed down by the erroneous thinking patterns - these patterns run very deep. The consumption of vegetarian food makes it even worse.

The rabbit hole goes deeper i.e Indians are also very unique in the world where they are openly racist to others as well as themselves. Most Indians detest being brown skinned and secretly wish to be born as white skinned westerners. As a consequence they are generally spiteful and scorneful towards people outside of their community and states. A darker skinned Indian woman will never be safe from the taunts from the family and the society about her physical ugliness - even we faced it as kids and did the same to our cousins.

India is divided into various states based on the languages that locals spoke in the past and this has led to the crystlisation of different mainstream religions, castes, sects and communities local to each state. Looking from the outside, Indian states can be considered large scale cultural gettos.

I am from a state which borders New Delhi and has a local dialect which is a crude form of Hindi and very Neanderthal like. The culture as a result is very pro-Hindu with strong caste system, vegetarianism, cow worship etc. stopping at the point where at least the cow urine is not consumed - people from another state towards the west do that. The bordering state to the north has their own dialect which is a sweeter and softer form of Hindi and Islam/Sikh inspired. Any marriages between people from these states will lead to honour killings whereby both the girl and the boy will be beaten, hacked up and buried in the ground in plastic bags. I have been threatened with this already as my wife is from the northern state.

Travelling south of India, you have very little Hindi speakers as people down there are more intellectual types and only learn English and their local dialects. As a result, there exists a virtual North vs South divide in India which is not well understood in the western world. There are plenty of North vs South jokes with racial undertones. There are also more temples in southern India as a lot of priests ran south when Northern India was under seige from the Mughals. Due to a more enmeshed religious presense, a focus on higher education and modest religious lifestyles, the south is considered to be a much safer place for women especially the western ones. And the stastistics dont lie either. In saying that, those people down there are equally wrong footed with bookish, inside-the-box and orthodox thinking patterns. A good example of a scientist who cannot explain his contradictions of being a man of science and yet church fearing. There is suffering everywhere, physical, mental, and spiritual and the languages do play a significant role in keeping the suffering going due to lack of extensive vocabulary and resistance to change and enhancements.

I would probably post more on this later when I get some time.
Fwiw.

 

[thorbiorn]

I could offer some insights into Hindi and few other languages spoken in India and how that shapes the culture.

It is interesting to read about the conflict created between Hindi and English when it appears that Hindi and Sanskrit are the Englishes of yesterday. Here are two maps. One is from the Wiki on Indo-European languages which skipping the details and the meaning of the colours looks like this:

And this is from the Wiki about the Languages of India:

There seem to be hundreds of charts and mind maps showing the relationships between the Indo-European languages, at least if one makes a web search for images. Even so, the above maps give an idea of the different groups.