Origin of Life: The 5th Option

[Approaching Infinity]

Well, the whole field of inorganic chemistry whose subset inorganic biology, is trying to find an answer to the chemical soup idea, have actually made quite a bit of progress. Couple inorganic biology with synthetic biology, and all it would take is "time" for anybody who knows how to create designer life forms for whatever purpose. But all this still doesn't answer the question as to where & how the biological life forms on earth came from/ how life on earth came to be.

In the end, the only thing that can create life, is life itself, i for one second Laura's comment that the engineered does not always have to look like or be anything like the engineer (higher density?). This frees us from begging the question if one has a linear 3D materialistic view, of if we were created & evolved, then who created the creator, ad infinitum.

More info on inorganic biology: http://www.ted.com/talks/lee_cronin_making_matter_come_alive.html

Interesting talk, but it just reinforces the problem Bryant mentions in his book, as you point out. If Cronin succeeds in engineering evolvable matter (and thus life, by his definition), he has just proved one thing: that it's possible to engineer life. The fact that we can't observe matter evolving to this point NATURALLY (i.e. without human, intelligent direction) suggests to me that it is NECESSARY for intelligence to direct the process. Sure it may be POSSIBLE for these things to happen by chance (no matter what the odds), just as it's possible to throw a hundred coins in the air and have them all come up heads. But that ignores the existence of consciousness, intelligence, and its ordering effect on random processes (e.g. turning over each coin so that it is a head, or arranging letters into a meaningful sentence). It is more likely (and more philosophically consistent) to hypothesize the pre-existence of consciousness, and the idea that such unimaginably unlikely events were not just chance happenings, but directed, just as Cronin is doing by determining the conditions (right chemicals, right environment) that may lead to life.

On a related note, check out these 3D videos of cellular processes (the ones by Berry have been posted on facebook by several forum members in the last couple days). Some of them are just AMAZING!

_http://www.wehi.edu.au/education/wehitv/ (Drew Berry)
_http://multimedia.mcb.harvard.edu/ (Harvard 'BioVisions')
_http://www.johnkyrk.com/index.html (more simple, but very informative)

 

[bngenoh]

Exactly AI,

It is more likely (and more philosophically consistent) to hypothesize the pre-existence of consciousness, and the idea that such unimaginably unlikely events were not just chance happenings, but directed, just as Cronin is doing by determining the conditions (right chemicals, right environment) that may lead to life.

It is just way simpler to factor in preexisting intelligence behind the organization of matter. It's so very comical and sad, that scientists can be so smart, and at the same time so stupid.

Btw, i never get tired of watching biovision, it's just plain cool

 

[Approaching Infinity]

It is just way simpler to factor in preexisting intelligence behind the organization of matter. It's so very comical and sad, that scientists can be so smart, and at the same time so stupid.

That reminds me of something I planned on including in my post, but forgot. Did you notice in the video that, two times, Cronin says something to the effect of, "Well, if you're marveling at how unlikely this is, just remember, it happened here 4 billion years ago, because here we are." (Presumably, he's arguing for the likelihood that this happened 'by chance'.) Talk about circular reasoning!

 

[bngenoh]

That reminds me of something I planned on including in my post, but forgot. Did you notice in the video that, two times, Cronin says something to the effect of, "Well, if you're marveling at how unlikely this is, just remember, it happened here 4 billion years ago, because here we are." (Presumably, he's arguing for the likelihood that this happened 'by chance'.) Talk about circular reasoning!

Yeah, i forgot to add something too, :D

Rather than practicing the "Ancient art of mental gymnastics" as Percival put it so well in one of his articles, why don't the scientists practice what they preach, ie use Ockham's razor, and let the evidence speak for itself. Guess we would no why, something to the effect of "No way Jose, that would mean killing my sacred cows indefinitely, and since i am a "vegetarian," hell no."

 

[Oxajil]

Btw, i never get tired of watching biovision, it's just plain cool

Yea! As a biology student I've been amazed many times by the mechanisms of many cellular compounds. One thing I won't forget is how the mechanism of the kinesin transport protein works and looks like :

_http://pubs.acs.org/cen/multimedia/84/motor/chemEng.html

_http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TGDPotbJV4

:D

 

[bngenoh]

Yea! As a biology student I've been amazed many times by the mechanisms of many cellular compounds. One thing I won't forget is how the mechanism of the kinesin transport protein works and looks like :

Biology is a fascinating subject indeed. The kinesin transport protein is a great example of the fact that our bodies are machines made up of even tinier machines, running on auto.

Btw, Biology was one of my majors, i can read for hours about the primary, secondary, tertiary, & quaternary structure of various molecules, and still read more always fascinated. :D Nerd, i know.

 

[Laura]

I just think that EVERYBODY should read "The 5th Option" and also Alister Hardy's "The Stream of Life" and Elaine Morgan's "Scars of Evolution".

Evolution is certainly an aspect of how we got to be what we are today (and everything else) but there is way more to it than that. Plus "evolution" is NOT a fundamental law of the universe: it's just a sub-system of Life; created by life for its own purposes.

 

[mcb]

I have not read the book, although I have it on order. I grew up in a jumble of confusion created by anti-evolutionists. I now appreciate evolutionary science up until the point where scientific materialistic belief systems take over. A turning point for me was reading In Search of the Double Helix which Laura cited a number of times in the cass website materials that I read early on.

Even 1st density matter may be able to evolve (hasn't as much been said here already?). The discussions I have seen about this point to the possibility that it can happen because the properties of matter favor it. "Design" aspects of our environment could be incorporated into matter itself. Personally I don't think that is all there is to it, but I see no point in laying out opinions -- they are just that. My thinking, though, is influenced by from being a computer programmer familiar with machine language concepts, not to mention emulation.

I think it is interesting that there seems to be a recurring theme everywhere, at every level: reproduction with variation. Experimentation everywhere. Could this represent some kind of "thinking process?"

 

[Gertrudes]

I just think that EVERYBODY should read "The 5th Option" and also Alister Hardy's "The Stream of Life" and Elaine Morgan's "Scars of Evolution".

Quick question Laura, have you read Elaine Morgan's more recent "The Aquatic Ape Hypothesis"? I have been thinking of investing in it since having read its related thread, but seeing you mentioning "Scars of Evolution" makes me wonder which would be the best bet.

 

[Laura]

I just think that EVERYBODY should read "The 5th Option" and also Alister Hardy's "The Stream of Life" and Elaine Morgan's "Scars of Evolution".

Quick question Laura, have you read Elaine Morgan's more recent "The Aquatic Ape Hypothesis"? I have been thinking of investing in it since having read its related thread, but seeing you mentioning "Scars of Evolution" makes me wonder which would be the best bet.

"Scars of Evolution" is about the AAH.

 

[Gertrudes]

"Scars of Evolution" is about the AAH.

Oh yes, I'm aware of that.
I may go for the latest one then, perhaps it includes more of her latest research.

 

[Laura]

"Scars of Evolution" is about the AAH.

Oh yes, I'm aware of that.
I may go for the latest one then, perhaps it includes more of her latest research.

I liked it because it focused on our "scars of evolution", systems that go wrong because of our evolutionary history.

 

[bngenoh]

I think it is interesting that there seems to be a recurring theme everywhere, at every level: reproduction with variation. Experimentation everywhere. Could this represent some kind of "thinking process?"

Oh yes i think it represents some sort of "thinking process". Thought comes before action, and for us action happens in matter. So just with that we have intelligence guiding matter, for it's own purposes not the other way around, ie selfish gene theory, etc. But reality is much more queer and complex than that, ie souls, Op's, etc.

 

[Gertrudes]

I liked it because it focused on our "scars of evolution", systems that go wrong because of our evolutionary history.

I see, thanks!

 

[dugdeep]

I just think that EVERYBODY should read "The 5th Option" and also Alister Hardy's "The Stream of Life" and Elaine Morgan's "Scars of Evolution".

Evolution is certainly an aspect of how we got to be what we are today (and everything else) but there is way more to it than that. Plus "evolution" is NOT a fundamental law of the universe: it's just a sub-system of Life; created by life for its own purposes.

I'm having trouble tracking down Alister Hardy's "The Stream of Life". I've found his "The Living Stream" on Amazon. Is that essentially the same thing?