Osho on vegetarian food:
SAO said:What is it about enlightenment and growing out a beard?
I wanna see some guy in a t-shirt and jeans with short hair, who is not trying to make an appearance statement, get enlightened for a change.
SAO said:Imagine if the SOTT team all had long beards, robes, and funny hats?
ROEL said:SAO said:What is it about enlightenment and growing out a beard?
I wanna see some guy in a t-shirt and jeans with short hair, who is not trying to make an appearance statement, get enlightened for a change.
Maybe these situations are part of the learning process. They force us to make an effort to try and "see" past the appearance. If we judge based on appearance the learning process tends to stop. I can't picture Buddha in a t-shirt and jeans. Same goes for the Cs.
SAO said:What I don't get is why are there so many long-bearded enlightened guys out there? What is it about enlightenment and growing out a beard? Is it analogous to cops growing mustaches to appear more authoritative? And where are all the enlightened women, why is it always long-bearded men? And how come they never seem to network - once "enlightened", all they do is teach and obtain followers.
Question: Beloved Osho, In a book I read about Gurdjieff, it was said that two of his disciples, who had been with him for a long time and in a very intimate way - for example, de Hartmann, who played his music - suddenly left him. Can you explain why this seems to happen again and again in the master-disciple relationship?
Osho : Turiya, the question is something of deep significance and with profound implications. It is something in the very nature of things that this kind of thing happens again and again, and will continue to happen again and again; it cannot be stopped. De Hartmann lived with George Gurdjieff for perhaps the longest period of any of his other disciples, perhaps forty years or more. He was a great genius as far as music is concerned, and he was playing music for special meditations, which Gurdjieff had devised.
The music was also devised by Gurdjieff; de Hartmann had to bring the device into reality. Gurdjieff was a strange master, everything about him had the quality of strangeness. He himself was not a musician, but he understood what kind of vibrations could create certain states in man. His understanding was about man, his meditation, his mind, the possibility of his receiving certain vibrations and being affected by them. He would explain his whole program to de Hartmann, and de Hartmann had become such an expert that he would make it a reality.
But de Hartmann was not a disciple -- this was where the trouble arose. He had come to George Gurdjieff to be a disciple, but his genius about music took him on a different route: rather than being a disciple, he became an associate. He started working for Gurdjieff insofar as he needed music for his special dances, and he forgot completely why he had come. Gurdjieff reminded him many times: "de Hartmann, you are a perfect master as far as music is concerned, but you had not come here to play music.
And now your ego is feeling so fulfilled and contented that you don't want to sit among the disciples. You have forgotten that your basic motive was not to play music here." The separation was bound to happen one day, because finally Gurdjieff became very hard. And he said to de Hartmann, "You have to stop music completely, because music has become a barrier. Your music has helped others tremendously, but for yourself it has become a barrier. You stop music completely! Burn all your musical instruments." This was too much for de Hartmann.
SAO said:What is it about enlightenment
Fascism and False Guru Sects
Fourteen Defining Characteristics Of Fascism
By Dr. Lawrence Britt
Dr. Lawrence Britt has examined the fascist regimes of Hitler (Germany), Mussolini (Italy), Franco (Spain), Suharto (Indonesia) and several Latin American regimes. Britt found 14 defining characteristics common to each:
1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism - Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.
2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights - Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of “need.” The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.
3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause - The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.
4. Supremacy of the Military - Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.
5. Rampant Sexism - The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Divorce, abortion and homosexuality are suppressed and the state is represented as the ultimate guardian of the family institution.
6. Controlled Mass Media - Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.
7. Obsession with National Security - Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.
8. Religion and Government are Intertwined - Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government’s policies or actions.
9. Corporate Power is Protected - The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.
10. Labor Power is Suppressed - Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed.
11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts - Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts and letters is openly attacked.
12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment - Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.
13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption - Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.
14. Fraudulent Elections - Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.
False Guru Groups
It seems that many of the attributes of authoritarian regimes, listed above, also define authoritarian cults and cultic and abusive guru movements. The reason is that in both cases there is a highly narcissistic but also fearful and shadow-projecting individual or individuals at the top, who through giving in to adverse entities, acts in a way to supress any creativity, originality, individuality, authentic spirituality or anything else that threatens the ideology, belief-system, personal worldview, or hypersensitive ego of the leader or leadership.
Consider also charismatic demagogues like Hitler, Mussolini, Mao, Khomeiny, and others who constitute interesting parallels with "gurus" who had an abusive relationship with their followers, but were widely loved even so.
How much did Rajneeshpurim resemble a fascist state? What about Andrew Cohen's Foxhollow community? Or even (although this is obviously much less the case!) Ken Wilber's Integral Institute?
The following then is a modified list for a totalitarian guru organisation, using the above categories:
1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism - constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia - Replace with merchandise, photos of the guru, the logo of the organisation etc.
2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights - See Abusive Guru - The people tend to look the other way or even approve - See pages on the antagonistic and slanderous devotee.
3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause - The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe - consider the attitude to critics and scapegoating of perceived enemies in the Scientology, Sai Baba, and many smaller sects.
4. Supremacy of the Military - This point is not as applicable as others. While some abusive gurus (Muktananda, Mataji Nirmala Devi) seem to use bully-boys with threats of or even actual violence against critics, personal psychological manipulation is more universal.
5. Rampant Sexism - traditional gender roles are made more rigid. While this is the case in cults based on fundamentalist exoteric religions and neo-traditionalist groups like the Hare Krishnas, it does not apply to most Guru sects
6. Controlled Mass Media - while in some guru sects discussion on forums seem to be given a pretty free reign, with others less questioning of the guru or teachings are allowed.
7. Obsession with National Security - Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses. This is also characteristic of almost all cultic groups; there was a lot of paranoia and shadow-projection, the impression may be of the "persecuted elect"
8. Religion and Government are Intertwined - In a religious sect or cult this goes without saying.
9. Corporate Power is Protected - creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite. In some cases this is not applicable, as especially small sects generally have little to do with commerce. But this is not always the case, especially with large establishe dorganisiations and thos ebased strongly on manipulation. Groups like Scientology, EST, and Avatar all placed or place great emphasis on making heaps of money from workshops, course, or (in Scientology) auditing. Often much of the New Age is based on expensive weekend workshops, even basic ones cost several hundreds of dollars. This is sop even for relatively mild groups like Siddha Yoga, or even progressive spiritual philospphy (see Matthew Dallman's comments and experiences regarding the Integral Institute and Integral University as marketting strategy)
10. Labor Power is Suppressed - labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed. Consider that often in cults and negative guru movements many followers work as slave labour for little or no wages, all the earnings going to the cult or organisation.
11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts - It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts and letters is openly attacked. This is not as specifically applicable, but may be tied in with these cultic organisations not allowing intellectual questioning or free thought and enquiry if it contradicts the teachings of their false guru. Followers of Rajneesh may have a problem with the intellectual side of things, as indicated by the famous sign "shoes and minds are to be left at the gate". The Osho Deck, which in every other way is an extraordinarily insightful tarot deck, is curiously lacking in any refernce to the mental faculty.
12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment - The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. Here there is an obvious analogy with excessive rules and discipline within any cultic group. While this is much less the case with eastern and nonduality style gurus, there is still frequently the justification of abusive behaviour as so-called "crazy wisdom" and the statement that the (false) guru or master knows best (see Jim Chamberlain on the "Three Cards" trick).
13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption - governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. This may well be a frequent occurance with abusive gurus with large organisations where there is a lot of cronyism and jockeying for power and influence among the inner circle of followers (e.g. Rajneesh, Adi Da)
14. Fraudulent Elections. How much democracy is there in guruist and cultic organisations? Do any of the followers have any say, or is it the false guru or cultic leader who makes all the decisions? In general, cultic organisations are totally authoritarian, there is no democracy at all. Democracy only emerges with rationalism (ancient Athens) and modernity (the secular West)
Medhavi said:Osho was a philosophy professor and a sales man. Nothing more.
He had a particular knack for reading up on many topics and repackaging it for the gullible and he somehow struck the nerve of his time, thus his rise to fame.
It just surprises me that when he came to the West, nobody seemed to mind the fact that he was trying to cash in on hundreds of thousands of followers, something that should be a big fat red sign for any seeker. He didn't ever seem to affect real change in his followers too, which should be another bad sign.
His own behaviour was erratic and full of sex stories and drug abuse, which is an even more telling sign. Why would you want to learn anything from someone who clearly can't objectively observe himself?
How people can even take him seriously is beyond me.
I have read osho's tantra book where he describes 110+ methods of meditation. It was very useful. I've tried 20+ methods until found the ones that fit me.
You answered yourself, in part. These things came from societies that have been deeply patriarchal since thousands of years, and the characteristic long beard and excessive drawn out voice and usage of sayings is just there to claim authority. Women didn't have much of a chance in these societies. There were/are yoginis(female yogis) in pretty much all of the Asian traditions, from Kriya Yoga to Ati Yoga in Dzogchen, but this only worked on the outskirts of society. Some did network and check their perceived enlightenment against others, but this has happened in the classical traditions which have excessively high standards on whom is enlightened or not. When the 60's and 70's Guru Fever came, save for a few scholars, practically noone had an idea of what the standard for enlightenment was so everything irrational was accepted as such. So anything goes, even today. This has sadly spread to many Asiatic societies now as well, where anyone with even the faintest abilitiy of critical thinking or knowledge of scriptures can only shake their head at what certain people in key positions claim themselves to be. If you're a conman using the "exotic spiritual path" as the venue of choice, you are naturally interested in obtaining as many followers as possible and collectively deluding/exploiting them for your own gain. Standard psychopathic behaviour.What I don't get is why are there so many long-bearded enlightened guys out there? What is it about enlightenment and growing out a beard? Is it analogous to cops growing mustaches to appear more authoritative? And where are all the enlightened women, why is it always long-bearded men? And how come they never seem to network - once "enlightened", all they do is teach and obtain followers.
Easy- They just need to choose an area many people don't know so well so that they can bank on the naivete of those who fall for them. Then they just need to find ways to bypass your criticial thinking. Voilà, another follower. The more I examine what I assume to be reality, the more pain and anger I feel at just how easy this whole "operation" is for those behind the scenes.There is Mister Chopra, he has no bear. He is by the way a little crazy, too. He said that he was responsible of the earthquake of Chili because when it happened he was meditating and while meditating he-excuse me the word- farted. So you know, all those clowns multimillionaires are pathetic. I don't understand at all how people can follow them like they were gods.
But Buddha was a very handsome man, when young, very beautiful man and with no bear at all. But I don't know any Buddhist with a bear.
Sometimes I think he wrote a deluded commentary or speech on pretty much everything on this planet, just to appear as wise when any investigation would immediately reveal his profound ignorance of the subjects he talked about.complete lies... in other parts he takes events from Gurdjieff's autobiography and distorts them to come up with his own narrative. it's completely ridiculous to me.
That's the result of misperception of Ch'an and later Zen in the United States. The Zen as it is known in the West, especially in the USA, could be said to be a complete 20th century fabrication. It appealed to lazy people and those looking for the irrational that seemed to be missing from their lives(hippies, counter-culture). Has it anything to do with the real training methods or the scriptures backing them? Nope.The whole idea of enlightment is very popularized. But the way it is done it is focused on conception of some miracles or some almost unreachable states adepts going to reach.
There is almost nothing about knowledge in it. "No-mind state" is popularized as state "you have to stop thinking at all". And I even believe that is method to mislead those who has potential.
You are just reiterating hearsay. Internal energy manipulation is about as rare in South/East Asian traditions as Western alchemists were in Europe.Most of methods of enlightment uses methods working with internal enegry, kundalini, etc to setup flow in internal body and this way to change mind, when kundalini reaches adjna or crown charka. Most of adepts follow this way and only small percent of them reaches the goal. Others with some will and control of energy can reach some states without changing mind and when they stop their practice they lose all their power.
There are other methods which tends to change mind and this way to remove internal blocks or breaks in body to clear flow through body. This methods based on knowledge and how it changes mind and body.
I personally followed latter way with some recomendation from ra/cass to balance body/mind and spirit.
As said, this is a common sign of authority which works remarkably well in Chinese and Indian culture, at least in my observation.and the wristwatches on his right arm who change in every video and seem to be quite expensive and his deliberate slow and deep speech patterns as well as his slow body motions while he is talking to give the impression that he really has something "holy" to tell......