Ponerology in Action: Claiming Political Ponerology is Anti-Semitic

Buddy said:
If some of the discussions that have taken place on this forum had been taking place on a talk show, you could get to the point where you're about ready to tighten the ring of logic and you find yourself vectored off into some other area, (like that statement suumcumique made that Perceval asked about, and that still hasn't been answered) breaking your concentration to give 'them' time to demonstrate that characteristic drugged-up, head-lolling smirk that subliminally suggests to the audience: "see...I told you so...", as if everyone is in collusion against you.

That's probably the real reason you don't see many people with the brain power of the SOTT team, sitting in on a mainstream "news show" (so-called). It's a no-win from the get-go, because rational discussion was never the point.

The vocabulary of discussions within popular media are already framed for a certain conclusion. For example, the idea that questioning how the Holocaust is used to justify basically anything Israel does in Palestine is equal to anti-semitism. This is a frame in many people's minds already so that there discussion of such an issue is going towards a certain direction pretty much automatically.

Even with the fact that most of us here resonated with something on the forum/sott.net/cassiopaea.com are with the ideas that FOTCM is setting forth, we still bring our sacred cows, and sometimes our vocabulary is part of what keeps us tied to these sacred cows.

Maybe part of what we are doing is setting the stage for a future generation to have a frame within which these issues can finally be freely discussed.

One problem is that the PTB literally have think tanks with large budgets that they can spend as they choose to research how to frame issues. This has been noticed and some want to free political discourse so that progressive conclusions can be reached:

http://berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2003/10/27_lakoff.shtml

But these guys don't know about ponerology and its application to interpreting world events so there are limits on how much they can do...
 
Patience said:
Even with the fact that most of us here resonated with something on the forum/sott.net/cassiopaea.com are with the ideas that FOTCM is setting forth, we still bring our sacred cows, and sometimes our vocabulary is part of what keeps us tied to these sacred cows.

Maybe part of what we are doing is setting the stage for a future generation to have a frame within which these issues can finally be freely discussed.

One problem is that the PTB literally have think tanks with large budgets that they can spend as they choose to research how to frame issues. This has been noticed and some want to free political discourse so that progressive conclusions can be reached:

http://berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2003/10/27_lakoff.shtml

But these guys don't know about ponerology and its application to interpreting world events so there are limits on how much they can do...

when seeing, for example, these fixed debates in the media, on TV, or the utter juvenile charade that is Prime Minister's question time in Parliament, I often think wouldn't it be great if in these scenarios the participants were absolutely forbidden from using any covert aggressive manoeuvres (y'know pity trip, evasion, diversion, minimisation, vilifying the victim, etc, etc) and every single time they tried it, or made insubstantiated claims etc, they were stopped dead and had to back up and try again. Of course, not gonna happen, in the current situation. But, that's the kind of framework that is really needed for proper discussion of important issues for society, and yeah, this is what we are doing here, by creating just that framework, and the knowledge required to make it work, and hopefully apply it elsewhere.
 
I shall leave it at that, not only because a few of the issues I have raised with respect to 'Political Ponerology' do not belong specifically to this thread, dedicated as it is to its relationship with anti-Semitism, while those which pertain closely to the subject of this thread are simply being ducked by firm believers, but also because it is quite clear that these firm believers cannot bear critical views on Ponerology. Credo quia abdurdum. For claiming that people who follow psychopathic leaders are 'normal' is a contradiction in itself. The contradictions I have detected and pointed out in Ponerology are valid, and I intend to write to the author himself to ask some clarifications, provided that I can find his email address. It is very kind of you to try and tell me what you think can be defined as 'normal', and what you think the author defines as 'normal', yet that's not what I asked for : what asked for iwas a definition of 'normality' by the author himself. So far, it looks like I'm the only member of this thread to have quoted excerpts from the actual book.
 
suumcuique said:
I shall leave it at that, not only because a few of the issues I have raised with respect to 'Political Ponerology' do not belong specifically to this thread, dedicated as it is to its relationship with anti-Semitism, while those which pertain closely to the subject of this thread are simply being ducked by firm believers, but also because it is quite clear that these firm believers cannot bear critical views on Ponerology. Credo quia abdurdum. For claiming that people who follow psychopathic leaders are 'normal' is a contradiction in itself. The contradictions I have detected and pointed out in Ponerology are valid, and I intend to write to the author himself to ask some clarifications, provided that I can find his email address. It is very kind of you to try and tell me what you think can be defined as 'normal', and what you think the author defines as 'normal', yet that's not what I asked for : what asked for iwas a definition of 'normality' by the author himself.

Lobaczewski is dealing with a condition that afflicts a certain percentage of the population, known as psychopathy (with subclassifications). He is simply using the term 'normal' to refer to the rest of the population, anyone who does not fall into this specialist category, non-psychopaths, as Approaching Infinity has already said.

In the same way that if one was describing any group of people with a particular distinguishing anomaly that classified them separately from the majority of society in some way, one might use 'normal' to refer to everyone else. I really don't know how this can be explained any more simply.

suumcuique said:
For claiming that people who follow psychopathic leaders are 'normal' is a contradiction in itself.

Not if we use the simple psychopath/non-psychopath distinction above. 'Normal' does not have to mean 'impervious to psychopathic manipulation'. Nor does it have to mean 'free of pathological behaviour' - there are various reasons for pathological behaviour arising in 'normal' people, and this is explored in the book, under the term 'ponerogenesis'. In fact that's part of the most important thread of meaning throughout the book. Normal people ARE manipulable by psychopaths. Until and unless they learn how not to be. And so, they could very well come under the power of psychopathic leaders. This can be seen today, and countless times throughout our history.
 
suumcuique said:
I intend to write to the author himself to ask some clarifications

If you had read enough material about Lobaczewski, you would have realized the absurdity of your statement.

It brings us back to an observation that was made previously in this thread. What the point of discussing a topic that obviously you didn't study enough?
 
suumcuique said:
but also because it is quite clear that these firm believers cannot bear critical views on Ponerology.


I think Nomad has summed it up very well. Political Ponerology may be dificult for some to read, but what folks here find hard to bear (in my view) is trying to address questions where understanding the answer lies in acquiring an understanding of a context of material that one of the discussion participants doesn't want to read first. (ref: reply #31 in this thread). All of us have been referred, at one time or another, to stuff we need to get up to speed on. Fwiw, and it may not be much, I don't see that you have been treated any differently.

One of the insights I've had from Lobaczewski's material is not only of his brilliance and clarity of thought, but the very fact of that ability indicates he would have anticipated fragmented thinking in some of his readers and avoided setting up such an obvious straw man as an absolute, unindexed "normalcy".

Besides, people who have deficiency in their inductive capacity to discern meaning from context, are not interested in learning about PP anyway. Why would they? It's just another threat to their Status Quo.

Apologies for the diversion. I just wanted to say that as my tribute to Lobaczewski's work.
 
Laura said:
suumcuique said:
I intend to write to the author himself to ask some clarifications, provided that I can find his email address.

Perhaps you will like to check out these two articles:

The Trick of the Psychopath's Trade: Make Us Believe that Evil Comes from Others


In Memoriam: Andrzej M. Łobaczewski

I own the copyright to the English translation and, as Lobaczewski wrote, the torch has been passed to me.

I googled his name, just to make sure that he was still alive, but could not find any biographic data. Since you are his intellectual legatee, please ponder over those considerations of mine : "he's got some points, some excellent points :
"for example, a strong belief that all humans are born equal and created in God's image can lead to an "egalitarian" acceptance of pathological individuals and their distorted world view. Similar dynamics occur with strong beliefs in freedom of speech, freedom to pursue happiness, the "goodness" of humankind, etc., a typically modern dynamics that took shape in the XIXth century and that the historical European right-wing in the XIXth, followed by National Socialism, Fascism, and all other contemporary European far-right forces, fought, in the name of a qualitative, hierarchical, and differentiated traditional society. This didn't prevent the author from putting a photo of A. Hitler on the cover of his book (true, commercially speaking, A. Hitler's photo is more effective), and from giving a link to an article called 'The Danger of American Fascism' (http://www.sott.net/articles/show/137960-The+Danger+of+American+Fascism), where Fascism is described as "a worldwide disease", and whose only excuse is to have been written in 1944, 65 years before the rise of O'Bamania." So, it clearly appears that the author, who holds egalitarianism as a form of psychopathy, considers both those who, as leaders, support egalitarianism and those who, still as leaders, fight egalitarianism as psychopaths. There is a lack of consistency in this.

To my statement that "claiming that people who follow psychopathic leaders are 'normal' is a contradiction in itself.", someone replied : "Not if we use the simple psychopath/non-psychopath distinction above. 'Normal' does not have to mean 'impervious to psychopathic manipulation'. Nor does it have to mean 'free of pathological behaviour' - there are various reasons for pathological behaviour arising in 'normal' people (...)". I'm sure there are various reasons for pathological behaviour arising in 'normal' (he can't refrain from rightfully putting the term in quotation marks) people, but, precisely, If a pathological behaviour arises in them, they can no longer be called 'normal'. For someone not to be impervious to psychopathic manipulation, there must be something in his very substance that makes him receptive to that psychopathic manipulation. Birds of feather flock together. Since, nowadays, almost everyone is receptive - conducive - to it (even on this thread, quite a few believe in one of the biggest hoaxes of history), it follows that the overwhelming majority is made up of psychopaths.

True, "it needs to be said that "mad people" don't need the support of large populations, only a powerful minority that can both "drive" the population and control it. Look at the polls in the United States. Bush has been hovering around 30% popularity for years - and that is the population as a whole. But because he is backed by a very powerful minority, the people who own the media, the arms industry and their military supporters, the oil companies, among others, popular discontent doesn't matter. And as long as Bush's politics don't overtly affect the ordinary American negatively, they don't care enough to do anything about it." But why is it that people have or had to focus compulsively on the person of G.W. Bush? This guy was only a red-herring, and, as we say, the tree that hides the forest, not to say a scapegoat. Intellectually speaking, it would have been far more courageous to criticise the whole neo-cons apparatus that was behind him, and to always stress the ethnic origins of those neo-cons. Furthermore, had Gore been elected in his stead in 2000, on the whole, it would have meant exactly the same thing : both characters are just as dangerous, and Gore, as one of the figureheads of the newest avatar of the Communist ideology that ecology is, is possibly even more dangerous, in so far as far more subtle. In any case, whether democrats or republicans, it's been a while since American presidents have all been chosen to implement the so-called New World Order by the clique that can be found behind Republicanism ; and this is also true of most of the political schemers, whether of the left or of the so-called right brand, who have managed European countries for 65 years. On that basis, a voter who takes polls seriously see double. There is worse : the strong belief in the so-called 'freedom of speech', which the author rightfully sees to a large extent as a psychopathy, is recognised as a right in all Western countries and by all Westerners : even the most extreme American and European far-rightists acknowledge it, and support it frenetically, just as they all support 'democratic values' ! No, they don't support it for propagandistic purposes, they do believe in them.

What is going on is not ", as Aldous Huxley wrote, and as many people believe, (...) : bread and circuses". In ancient Rome, bread and circuses were free - it was then called evergetism, and many Roman Senators went bankrupt by entertaining the people, that is, the populace ; in the modern world, as far as I know, you have to pay to get entertained. The closest thing to evergetism in modern times is charity, which, created by early Christians to oppose and ruin traditional Roman evergetism, has become a huge business and, beyond this, one of the best way to control people, to turn them into actual slaves. Anglicans perfected it in the early XIXth, as the so-called 'industrial revolution' was going on : while the husband, as a factory owner, would use and abuse as coldly and cynically as possible the workers, the devoted and so compassionate wife would set up charity for them and their family.

It's all very well to state that "We have been convinced that we are all just animals and that each of us is capable of becoming a Hitler or a Bush (...), given the right circumstances", but the fact still remains that the former was able to rebuild a ruined society within 4 years and to give jobs, and, as result, a decent life, some self-respect, a sense of belonging, to 6 millions unemployed Germans, while the latter, and his current avatars both in America and in Europe, are only able to destroy communities, families, individuals, bodies, minds, spirits, by creating deliberately more and more unemployment. Social security was invented, not by a leftist, but by the authoritarian Bismarck. The actual fight against cancer was initiated by National Socialism and so was the actual fight against alcoholism. The fact that caring for one's own people is considered as a psychopathic attitude nowadays does not change anything to the fact that, for millennia, it was seen as a standard, as a norm.

Finally -since I don't want to post too long a message - it is quite naive to state that essential psychopaths "learn to recognize each other in a crowd as early as childhood". Come on, they don't need to "recognize each other in a crowd" : they all belong to the same circles, they all go to the same schools (Harvard, Yale, Princeton, etc., as far as American Universities are concerned)
 
suumcuique said:
Finally -since I don't want to post too long a message - it is quite naive to state that essential psychopaths "learn to recognize each other in a crowd as early as childhood". Come on, they don't need to "recognize each other in a crowd" : they all belong to the same circles, they all go to the same schools (Harvard, Yale, Princeton, etc., as far as American Universities are concerned)

On the contrary, it's naive to think that psychopaths only operate in the higher echelons of society and only attend Ivy League schools. Psychopaths are integrated amongst all strata and classes of society, so it would make sense for them to adapt the ability of recognizing each other. To think otherwise is to be short-sighted as to the proliferation of psychopaths into all areas of society.
 
Heimdallr said:
suumcuique said:
Finally -since I don't want to post too long a message - it is quite naive to state that essential psychopaths "learn to recognize each other in a crowd as early as childhood". Come on, they don't need to "recognize each other in a crowd" : they all belong to the same circles, they all go to the same schools (Harvard, Yale, Princeton, etc., as far as American Universities are concerned)

On the contrary, it's naive to think that psychopaths only operate in the higher echelons of society and only attend Ivy League schools. Psychopaths are integrated amongst all strata and classes of society, so it would make sense for them to adapt the ability of recognizing each other. To think otherwise is to be short-sighted as to the proliferation of psychopaths into all areas of society.

This is also untrue:

suumcuique said:
Since, nowadays, almost everyone is receptive - conducive - to it (even on this thread, quite a few believe in one of the biggest hoaxes of history), it follows that the overwhelming majority is made up of psychopaths.

Just because a person is receptive or even affected by psychopathic thought processes, or views of reality, does not mean they are psychopaths. Again, suumuique - please read the book and get educated on this topic - this discussion is futile as long as you continue to base your statements on points that are blatantly untrue - and continue to refuse to listen to the data being presented to you.
 
H:

Makes sense to me, as I think the (6%) psychopaths strategic advantage
is to blend throughout all strata of normal humans in order to best keep
track their flock, to be watched , and to be reported as three-lettered
agencies and corporations have always done. They know their own kind.

OSIT
Dan
 
I agree with Anart, suumcuique. You have absolutely no clue what you are talking about. And it takes more than reading Lobaczewski. You'll need to spend YEARS, as most of us here have, wading through the literature both on psychopathology AND Hitler, Nazis, and other pathocracies.

I understand you are a language teacher in China looking for a job. Somehow, I don't think that qualifies you to pronounce on any of these topics when you are talking to a number of qualified professionals in the respective fields.

Either do your homework, or don't let the door hit you on the way out.
 
suumcuique said:
It's all very well to state that "We have been convinced that we are all just animals and that each of us is capable of becoming a Hitler or a Bush (...), given the right circumstances", but the fact still remains that the former was able to rebuild a ruined society within 4 years and to give jobs, and, as result, a decent life, some self-respect, a sense of belonging, to 6 millions unemployed Germans,

suumcuique, regarding the above, I have a few thoughts. Feel free to correct what may be wrong.
On an emotional level, that appears to be little more than the relief that floods a person when a torture is over: a kind of "thank you for ending the torture" feeling.
On a philosophical level, it looks like an ends justifies the means position.
Mathmatically, it looks like when psychopaths/sociopaths rebuild what they destroy, there's some kind of benevolent remainder left over. If there is, I don't see it.
On the material/nature plane, it looks like you only have a superficial understanding of the scenario. Governments are social hallucinations in the first place, osit. What's actually there is a group of terrorists in positions to harm and kill people and their deluded authoritarian followers who support the whole racket.

Kinda like the that story about the boy who said "The king is wearing no clothes". The boy was the only one who could see and behave the right way around. Lobaczewski was "the boy who could see" in this metaphor and he shared it with us and now we can 'see', and there's no turning back.
 
Approaching Infinity said:
suumcuique said:
To realise this, all one should need to do is to ask the following simple question : did they act in the interests of their people, of their country - which is the least that can be expected from the head of a country - or not?

One of the points of Ponerology is that the type of question you ask above isn't necessarily relevant, what matters is a person's nature. A psychopath can do some good things for a country, and a non-psychopath can do really bad things for a country. But a psychopath never changes and has a corrupting influence that the vast majority of humans do not have. Ponerology focuses on those negative effects that psychopaths, specifically, (in league with other individuals who may or may not be psychopathic) have in politics and the systems of government they create, e.g. "Nazism", "Soviet Communism", etc.

in this respect, one cannot help suspecting that 'normality' is used as a synonym for 'mediocrity' in 'Ponerology'. If the term 'normality' is to be used, then it should be part, not of a two-part, but of a three-part equation : infra-normality - normality - supranormality (or whatever Latin prefix you chose that conveys the same idea) .

Lobaczewski simply uses "normal" to describe any person lacking a genetic or acquired (via brain trauma or functional brain damage) personality defect. According to this definition, 94% of people are "normal", 6% are abnormal, based on the criteria I just listed.

94% of 'normal people' supporting psychopaths should make any balanced person question the sanity of those 94%

For example, Augustus' pathological fear of thunder did not prevent him from being one of the greatest administrative geniuses of history. Diseased tendencies can be found in very human being - especially in our age, given the heavy heredity of most of the indivuals who are born in it - as well as healthy ones. When the former prevails upon the latter, an individual can legitimately be called a psychopath. In other types of individuals, however, the latter reigns supreme and check the former.

Here you're confusing dangerous pathologies (e.g. psychopathy, schizoidia, BPD, etc) with "normal", dissociative ones (they used to be called "neuroses").

Bear in mind that Augustus, not to mention Cesar, is seen by the vast majority of conspirationists as a forebearer of G.W. Bush, insofar as the Roman Empire is considered as a forbearer of the USA. Those conspirationists, who, for most of them, don't have a clue about history, do not realise that Rome never intended to submit Indians, Chinese or Blacks, whereas what is behind the USA, acting, to quote Yockey, as a cultural distorter, does want to conquer the whole world, from Alaska to Patagonia, from Vladivostok to Brest, along Old Testament lines. As to national Socialist Germany, it wanted so much to conquer the world that it didn't even think that National-Socialism could possibly be exported to... France.



When stating that "In conjunction with part of the elite, a group of psychopathic individuals hiding behind the scenes steers the leader, the way Borman and his clique steered Hitler", the author must be referring, either to 'Hitler's Traitor', or to other books based on the same evidence. Now, that evidence is, to say the least, flimsy. More evidence exists that Canaris was THE actual traitor. Anyway, Borman, as Reich leader and as the head of the Party Chancellery, was not, by definition, "behind the scenes".

Read Hare and Babiak's Snakes in Suits for an idea of what "behind the scenes" means in this context. A better example is how Beria influenced Stalin. Whether overt or covert, private or public, the dynamic is of one manipulating (the psychopath) and one manipulated (usually the "leader", i.e. Hitler and Stalin). Gilbert's book Psychology of Dictatorship goes into some detail on how Hitler's own delusions and obsessions were manipulated and exploited by psychopaths in his clique.

A far better example is how Beria influenced Stalin

In that sense, they will always remain prisoners of the image, made out of magic, of A. Hitler as 'pure evil' that they created in order to show themselves as the 'good guys' and to maintain their pseudo-legitimacy, no matter how hard they try to replace it with the MI5/CIA-engineered so-called 'Muslim peril'.

Have you considered that they are/were BOTH evil? Hitler was an obvious paranoid, obviously delusional, obviously lacked compassion, obviously ego-maniacal. Lobaczewski makes an interesting observation in ponerology: the people that are "seduced" by a paranoid tend to be youths, people who have been victims of pathological people, and those who themselves are similarly pathological. Most other people can easily recognize the paranoid. He comes across as "crazy", manic, obsessed, delusional, vulgar, heartless, etc. It may help to ask yourself how and why you have come to accept an individual like Hitler as someone to be accepted.

Irionically enough, A. Hitler was strongly criticised by one of the most interesting National-Socialist women of the XXth century for having showed too much compassion : Stalin purged the Red Army from its non Marxist elements just before he decided to invade Western Europe and, fortunately for Europeans, Germany counter-attacked in 1941, before it was too late, when A. Hitler, who, as a kid, worshipped the Wehrmacht as a symbol of German strength, always refused to purge it, even though it was filled with democratic-minded indivuals. He let Jews leave Germany with all their goods, whereas, when boats filled of Jews reached the American shores in the mid-1930's, the American authorities threatened to sink them, if they did not leave illico presto ; the English army could have been butchered in Dunkirk : he decided to let them go, apparently believing that the English would sooner or later realise how wrong they were in supporting the USA and what was behind and still is behind the USA. Stalin, who was not even a Russian, had 40 to 50 millions Russians and Ukrainians murdered or starved to death. Etc. On a more down-to-earth note, I've had the opportunity to meet quite a lot of people from Eastern European countries who experienced both the Wehrmacht occupation and the Red Army occupation, they are or were not political people and I didn't meet them in a political context : they don't know what the word 'psychopath' means, all they know is that, in those hard times, you could be raped at any time, whatever your age, by a Red Army soldier, whereas, when the Germans were in town, at least you could live as normally as possible, without fearing to be raped, manhandled, harassed, stolen, hit, tortured, killed, butchered, indiscriminately. So, if told that both Stalin and Hitler were 'psychopaths', they would have told you : well, can we get our German psychopath back?
 
suumcuique said:
As to national Socialist Germany, it wanted so much to conquer the world that it didn't even think that National-Socialism could possibly be exported to... France.

This is what I'm talking about: referentless nominalizations, fantasies about 'things' going about doing stuff, and layers of abstraction bound with identifications (without clear distinctions). In a phrase: word salad, osit.

It seems you have a lot of time on your hands to 'play'. As far as I'm concerned, and in the present context, I don't see any need to continue this.
 
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