Praying

[Oxajil]

From another thread: http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=12837.msg193389#msg193389

What is wrong with efforts to send love and light, the achieving of the goals of world peace or personal prosperity? What is wrong with wanting a return to God, or higher consciousness or any of the touted experiences that are guaranteed to initiate a person to whatever they desire? The problem is anticipation. When you seek any of these things by holding the thoughts in the left-brain in anticipation of making it real, you are raping the maiden of the well.

What if you are just trying to believe it is now? Belief is a function of the left brain; it blocks the manifestation of creativity because the creative right brain is also the empirical half of the brain that observes the dichotomy between the belief and the reality.

Desire is anticipation. Anticipation is read by the right brain as in the future, therefore not right now, and the right brain can only create now. When we desire, we have a future object in mind. The right brain only knows now.

If we desire to love God, we have a concept (left brain) of the future goal of loving God. It can’t exist now. Therefore we experience struggle to constantly love God, against the ongoing now of not loving God.

If we desire to win the lottery, and produce in the left brain future image of money flowing into our life, it isn’t now. So now continues moneyless.

If we desire happiness, and create the concept in the left brain, we have future happiness in mind. And the right brain reads it as unhappiness now, and this can manifest in thousands of unhappy experiences.

By the same token, if we send love and light to any directed recipient, we are holding a concept of future fixing that signals a state of brokenness now to our right brain, and the repercussions are felt in our life. In a larger sense, we may be signaling the collective right brain that a future state of peace is desired, and therefore, now is not peaceful. And so the right brain creates now. The perception of linear time constantly projects rewards into the future, blocking access to the present, like a donkey chasing a carrot for all eternity.

This seems to me to be right on. When I first read this in the Wave it gave me much to think about. Though I find myself trapped in the left brain wishful thinking. Now bringing this back to light for me I will trust that I can work on making the change of how I think about things. Determined to feed the progressive side instead of the entropic side. Getting tired of running in place.

So for example instead of praying for well being and health, we give thanks for our well being and health or instead of praying for money, we give thanks for the ability to afford all that is needed for what is needed?

This is how I see it:

Some keys you need to keep in mind: stay open, have all possibilities open, be sincere, mean no harm, do not anticipate.

But if you pray, and you have a fixed belief that this praying will get you where you want without any personal input, and you keep on suffering on your present situation, Then yes, you would be raping the maiden of the well. But if you pray, you Work and see your life continuously as a challenge, then there is nothing wrong with that.

It's not necessarily about how you say a certain thing, like do I say ''pray'' or ''thanks'', it's about the source, who is it saying and is the intent pure?
You could be thankful of your home situation, but at the same time, if you're too fixed about this, you might close opportunities to grow your home situation into something even better. So the main key always is to be open. You could be thankful, pray, and at the same time see everything as a challenge, and have the desire to grow.

So for example you could ask "DCM, could you help me with finding a good job?" and during this time you are not necessarily unhappy about your money situation, because it is what it is, and you see it as a fun challenge, and at the same time you look for any vacancies on the internet or outside that you can apply yourself for. You just ask for a little push, if DCM thinks you might need one.

You could see DCM as someone who is learning with you. I find that this quote by Ibn Al Arabi describes this nicely:

He who knows himself knows his Lord. This Lord is not the impersonal self, nor is it the God of dogmatic definitions, self-subsisting without relation to me, without being experienced by me. He is the he who knows himself through myself, that is, in the knowledge that I have of him, because it is the knowledge that he has of me. . .

- Ibn al-'Arabi (1165 - 1240)

 

[Alada]

This is how I see it:

Some keys you need to keep in mind: stay open, have all possibilities open, be sincere, mean no harm, do not anticipate.

But if you pray, and you have a fixed belief that this praying will get you where you want without any personal input, and you keep on suffering on your present situation, Then yes, you would be raping the maiden of the well. But if you pray, you Work and see your life continuously as a challenge, then there is nothing wrong with that.

It's not necessarily about how you say a certain thing, like do I say ''pray'' or ''thanks'', it's about the source, who is it saying and is the intent pure?

I agree, and have wondered in the past what you can actually pray for without anticipating. Prayers of thanks for the day was about all I could come up with! It seems that prayer is more like opening a dialogue with the Universe, rather than the sense of a direct asking or demanding. If you think about the requests in the Prayer of the Soul, these could be seen as demands, but as you say, maybe it depends on the intent.

"Clear my Eyes, that I may See.
Clear my Ears, that I may Hear.
Cleanse my Heart, that I may Know and Love,
The Holiness of True Existence.
Divine Cosmic Mind."

If the intent is pure, its more a request to see, hear, feel, life as it is - not as we wold wish it to be. It doesn't anticipate what form anything should take, its more like a request to enter into a journey, a new relationship with the Universe. When the next thing comes down the line, whatever that experience may be in terms of 'good/bad' as we might see it at the time, remembering those requests and honoring the journey as it unfolds is part of the process. Perhaps in this way prayers are answered, that the journey becomes the answer to the prayers?

 

[Turgon]

This is how I see it:

Some keys you need to keep in mind: stay open, have all possibilities open, be sincere, mean no harm, do not anticipate.

But if you pray, and you have a fixed belief that this praying will get you where you want without any personal input, and you keep on suffering on your present situation, Then yes, you would be raping the maiden of the well. But if you pray, you Work and see your life continuously as a challenge, then there is nothing wrong with that.

It's not necessarily about how you say a certain thing, like do I say ''pray'' or ''thanks'', it's about the source, who is it saying and is the intent pure?

I agree, and have wondered in the past what you can actually pray for without anticipating. Prayers of thanks for the day was about all I could come up with! It seems that prayer is more like opening a dialogue with the Universe, rather than the sense of a direct asking or demanding. If you think about the requests in the Prayer of the Soul, these could be seen as demands, but as you say, maybe it depends on the intent.

I'd like to share an experience I had with prayer a few years back. I was working on the line at a restaurant on a particularly busy saturday night. The stress levels were reaching a peak whether it was the servers, line cooks or management with everyone taking out their frustration on everyone else. We were getting utterly bombarded in the back, and normally when this would start to happen I'd get swept up in this wave of anxiety too. But on this night, I asked for help. I can't remember exactly what I said, but only that when I asked it, I wasn't frustrated, begging or angry. I was actually pretty calm and just asking for some help in getting through this night, because I didn't want to fall into another program again.

Instantly after asking, I felt a 'click' if you could describe it like that. I remember that quite well because it was unusual. But no matter how busy it got that night, my eyes, mind and body worked in sync. I was breathing normally yet my body was moving quickly and my mind was calm but alert. I never got stressed out once that entire night, and when driving home I came to some realizations about my understanding of the Wave, and our attachments to 3rd density and how that may affect graduating to 4th. An idea popped into my mind that "All Potential Possibilities Eclipse Each other at Once" And this whole stream of ideas came into my head while driving. I didn't want to forget these ideas so tried to scribble it down while driving but only ended up writing "Too linear, con. Mosaic Thinking." Which I didn't intend to write. Maybe a message from my subconscious??

I didn't know it at the time, because I never prayed, but it was prayer! Even though I was doing the mantra at this time, it was what lead to my original post in this thread and writing this

So I start to see the difference between Prayer and affirmation a bit, whereas if the prayer is objective, or lacking anticipatory desire but coming from a place of request or asking, rather than begging, pleading, or attempting to affirm or enforce an idea, then the intent behind it changes. So for example, (I often get the idea in my head) that you need to sit by your bed, hands clasped to pray, but this may not be the case. It's just an unneccesary formality, and that as long as you are requesting for help, guidance, from higher sources, then the prayer has the chance of being heard. A person can be walking in a park, or at work, and as long as the proper intent is there, it then becomes a real, objective prayer, instead of a "positive thinking" exercise or affirmation. As long as a person asks, then it may be met with a response?

There was a certain honesty about that prayer that I haven't been able to recreate (or remember) since. I think that the friction caused by working there and being surrounded by petty tyrants lead to that moment.

Edit - I just found that piece of paper. Seems I had way more to think about that night that I completely forgot about. I wrote it on the other side and reading it over right now.

 

[Buddy]

Do you pray?
If so how do you pray and do you address your prayer to a certain entity or creator? To higher density beings?

I'm just curious as to what other people's view on prayer is.

I don't really pray due to overexposure to the concept through the Baptist Church as a child but I do sometimes talk about things (have somewhat of a conversation w/myself) that are on my mind out loud when I'm alone but I'm not addressing any focal point or image with my thoughts or words. Is there a difference in doing this and praying?

Any input is appreciated.

Thanks

I pray, but aside from the PoTS, it might not be recognizable to the average person. It's not in words, but when I do it, I'm in private and I just direct my attention to Universe and allow my innermost yearnings to flow out even though I may not have a conscious clue what the yearnings are about. Sometimes it makes me cry for no known reason, but, oh well, that's the way it is.

 

[Oxajil]

From thread (discussion on praying): http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=12837.msg196275#msg196275

I still don't understand how praying can interfere with someone else's lessons.

Don't you want to be as sure as possible though? What if there's only a 10% chance that by praying for someone, you're violating their free will? Wouldn't you be worried about that 10% chance?

Yes, I would be, I guess I'm very curious as to how one can do that, you know? Maybe, until then I could ask for permission?
Still I am curious as to know where that, let's say, 10% is coming from and how and when one could violate someone's free will by praying for them without their permission. How do I know that my way of praying would not violate their free will, even after receiving their permission? It kinda has to make some sense to me, maybe with some kind of data backing it up. I don't want to simply nod, and say "you could be right, so I'm doing it like this now". I would like to learn the ''why'' and ''how''s.

The impression I'm getting from your replies and statements in this thread, is not very scientific. If people had given me similar feedback to what you got here, then the first thing I would ask myself is, "what if I'm wrong?" and then I would follow that up by saying "I need to know if I'm wrong or not" and I would at least reread the parts of The Wave that were pertinent to the discussion.

I do think ''what if I'm wrong'', but I haven't seen anything yet from others that made me think ''I am wrong''. That's why I continue to ask to see where they are coming from. I also think it's a subject where it's difficult to be scientific about, with our 3D way of thinking. We could speculate however. I also need to know if I'm wrong or not, so how can I know?

Until then I would like to do that which comes natural to me, or is that wrong?

The purpose of discussions here is to get as close as we can to the truth. We can't just give our opinions and tell others we think something's right or true based on what we think or feel.

I know that. My goal is also definitely not to merely share my ''opinions'', I'm here to learn and to change them if that would be the best thing to do for my growth.

 

[Oxajil]

Reading this might be interesting: http://www.cassiopaea.com/wordpress/2010/09/questions-from-readers-on-angels-and-prayer/

 

[Zaphod]

Do you pray?
If so how do you pray and do you address your prayer to a certain entity or creator? To higher density beings?

I'm just curious as to what other people's view on prayer is.

I don't really pray due to overexposure to the concept through the Baptist Church as a child but I do sometimes talk about things (have somewhat of a conversation w/myself) that are on my mind out loud when I'm alone but I'm not addressing any focal point or image with my thoughts or words. Is there a difference in doing this and praying?

Any input is appreciated.

Thanks

I can't say I do. I don't wish to cause any offence, but I've always looked on praying as diverting attention and time to the futile and ineffectual. Sure, if I'm honest there are many activities I do indulge in which fit that description down to a tee but, to a large degree, those activities are not attempting to be anything other than a futile indulgence.

Prayer, to me, feels like a faintly ridiculous plea to some deified, nonexistent, anthropomorphic personification, for the universe to be something other than what it is. My feelings on this are that you may as well try and plea-bargain with your tractor for it to change from red to yellow; it doesn't matter how much energy or sincerity you pour in to your 'colour changing sessions', the only way it's going to change colour is with a brush.

I'm sure people have their reasons for praying and perhaps some form of cathartic mind-clearing is one of them, but even accepting that as a possibility, I don't understand what those reasons really are. Sure, we can answer with 'we want the world to improve' or 'suffering to stop' but to me, it feels unsatisfactory as an answer. We all want those things to change but it isn't apparent to me, how sitting in a quiet room muttering to yourself is getting us any closer to any such grand ambitions. So exactly what is it getting?

Or have I missed the point entirely?

 

[go2]

I'm sure people have their reasons for praying and perhaps some form of cathartic mind-clearing is one of them, but even accepting that as a possibility, I don't understand what those reasons really are. Sure, we can answer with 'we want the world to improve' or 'suffering to stop' but to me, it feels unsatisfactory as an answer. We all want those things to change but it isn't apparent to me, how sitting in a quiet room muttering to yourself is getting us any closer to any such grand ambitions. So exactly what is it getting?

I say the ancient prayer of measure, "May the words of my lips and the meditations of my heart be acceptable to you, Oh Lord," consistently, now for three years.
The prayer is a standard with which to measure myself and my actions. It didn't take long to see I mostly fall short of potential in voice, thought, and feeling for the higher impulses possible for my existence. The prayer is a reminder to remember myself and my aim and to strive to live as more than a mere beast.

Prayer does not need to be preformed in a quiet room alone, but can be utilized within the hustle and bustle of everyday to remember to wake up!

 

[Windmill knight]

From thread (discussion on praying): http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=12837.msg196275#msg196275

I've read a few posts from that discussion and I have to say that I tend to agree with Oxajil. Praying, if done without anticipation or expectation, is asking; it is not demanding or manipulating, nor determining others' needs. If you ask for the sake of others, it is a given that what you are asking for may be different than what is wanted or needed by them, so you already accept that possibility and trust that at some level the prayer was heard and the best possible outcome took place. And even if it was not heard, you are cool with that too because you were asking - not demanding.

It is also not the same as sending 'lov'n light', because you are addressing DCM or God or the Universe - or rather, the creative part of the Universe - so the Infinite Wisdom is the intermediary and will never fail to do the right thing (which may very well be leaving things as they are or doing the exact opposite than what we think is good). And if we were wrong in praying in the first place, rest assure that She will let us know about it too, sooner or later.

Now I have a question for all of you who are worried about violating other people's free will by praying when not asked. If you were walking next to a river and you saw someone drowning, would you refrain from helping because they have not asked for help?

Would you stop publishing truthful information on the web because no one asked you to? Suppose that the things we do as a group do have some sort of effect on the whole planet, as the Cs have suggested. Would you stop being part of this group because the planet did not give us its right? And if only a few asked, would you not find a way to reach everyone else too, through external consideration or different strategies, in case something inside them recognized the help offered? Offering help is not imposing either.

The Cs cannot and will not interfere in 3D, but they are 6D and we are not. Or rather, they do interfere, but in their own words, they do it "through you" (i.e. through those people who are the Cs in the future). If we always refrained from interfering, what would be the point of even being alive in the first place?

I'm not proposing to go out on the streets and convert people by preaching or doing any other such activities that clearly violate other people's free will. I just hope to make the point that there is good, bad and the specific situation that determines which is which, and sometimes acting under the assumption that our help and good wishes will ultimately be welcomed is the right thing to do. Same with praying for others, which may or may not be effective, but I'm pretty sure it's harmless - if the intent is pure.

Also, I think we should consider that Oxajil is most likely not proposing to pray for those who clearly do not want to change their lives or ways. The way I understand it, she prays for people close to her who, to the best of her knowledge, would most likely welcome a prayer. I don't see anything wrong with that.

 

[Oxajil]

Thank you for sharing your thoughts Windmill Knight, I agree completely and you are right about me being careful to whom I pray for.

(I actually thought about you when the discussion was going on, I remembered that your posts about Divine Cosmic Mind resonated with me strongly.)

Nonetheless, the discussion is interesting, and it has given me food for thought, and for that I'd like to thank you all.

 

[Aeneas]

It is also not the same as sending 'lov'n light', because you are addressing DCM or God or the Universe - or rather, the creative part of the Universe - so the Infinite Wisdom is the intermediary and will never fail to do the right thing (which may very well be leaving things as they are or doing the exact opposite than what we think is good). And if we were wrong in praying in the first place, rest assure that She will let us know about it too, sooner or later.

I think that the whole fundamental Christian movement and new born Christian movement would agree that their praying is also ok, because they are adressing God as well, so when they pray for the destruction of Palestine, then God will never fail to do the right thing whatever that be.

I lived for a long time with a woman who were several decades my age and who entrenched in the new age movement was a "bleeding heart". Whenever we would go to the coffee shop, she would quickly among some of the friends around find someone that needed her help, whether that be bodywork, Reiki, breath therapy or past life regression. There were always someone who needed help. She too did this out of a good heart and the wanting to ease another human beings suffering. What was amazing to see however was that the friends would sort of keep a certain distance to her after a while, or not turn up for free sessions and on and on. I think she genuinely wanted to help out of a good heart, but what was lacking was the respect of the other peoples free will and the fact that one can not do the lessons for someone else. She looked more and more frail as the years went on and in desperate need of looking after herself.

Now I have a question for all of you who are worried about violating other people's free will by praying when not asked. If you were walking next to a river and you saw someone drowning, would you refrain from helping because they have not asked for help?

I think this example is inappropriate as we are here talking about the sending of prayers on a daily if not weekly basis, if I understand Oxajil correctly. If someone falls in the river and I am there, I will not hesitate to jump in and save the person, but I doubt this situation is occurring more than once in a life time if at all. It is something that happens out of the blue and not something that you will have thought about before hand, which is the issue with praying for someone else. The drowning person situation is therefore a case of the specific situation.

Would you stop publishing truthful information on the web because no one asked you to? Suppose that the things we do as a group do have some sort of effect on the whole planet, as the Cs have suggested. Would you stop being part of this group because the planet did not give us its right? And if only a few asked, would you not find a way to reach everyone else too, through external consideration or different strategies, in case something inside them recognized the help offered? Offering help is not imposing either.

Again I think that you are stretching the topic at hand. Offering help is not imposing either. Agree totally, but with praying, there is the issue about asking, thereby an offer to pray. It leaves the other the option to say yes or no. With publishing sott, people have the option to say yes or no. It is not forced down peoples throat as a way of curing them of the pathocratic ills. Sott is simply offered as an alternative to the mainstream which people can read or not. The choice and thereby the decision is theirs to make.

The Cs cannot and will not interfere in 3D, but they are 6D and we are not. Or rather, they do interfere, but in their own words, they do it "through you" (i.e. through those people who are the Cs in the future). If we always refrained from interfering, what would be the point of even being alive in the first place?

Offering is not interfering. Offering is open, whereas interfering is closed and does not leave the victim much choice. The pedophile who violates a minor is interfering with that child, he is not offering something to the child that gives the child the chance to say yes or no.

I'm not proposing to go out on the streets and convert people by preaching or doing any other such activities that clearly violate other people's free will. I just hope to make the point that there is good, bad and the specific situation that determines which is which, and sometimes acting under the assumption that our

I am pleased that you are not proposing to go out in the streets ;) But regarding the issue of prayer I think that there are general guidelines AND then there are specific situations such as the person drowning. Free will is respected by STO but not by STS. Yes we are STS creatures, but our AIM is STO and therefore asking is all that is being suggested here in regards to praying for others. It was what started the discussion about how to alter the POTS for praying for others and where it was, rightly in my view, suggested to ask beforehand. So is it so hard to ask? and why? Are we afraid that the person will say no or reject us or??? There are specific situations such as coma etc, but in general terms, people are compos mentis and thus able to answer the question.

Also, I think we should consider that Oxajil is most likely not proposing to pray for those who clearly do not want to change their lives or ways. The way I understand it, she prays for people close to her who, to the best of her knowledge, would most likely welcome a prayer. I don't see anything wrong with that.

I think what became clear was that Oxajil prays mainly because of her own fear and insecurity and as Endymion suggested it might be a more direct way to pray for that part in herself that feels insecure rather than going a round about way of calming herself by praying for someone else. It is not clear that they most likely would welcome a prayer, at least that is only speculative. This is not to say that Oxajil is suggesting that they most likely would welcome a prayer, but it is how Windmill Knight has interpreted it, whether right or wrong.

Fwiw.

 

[Oxajil]

I think that the whole fundamental Christian movement and new born Christian movement would agree that their praying is also ok, because they are adressing God as well, so when they pray for the destruction of Palestine, then God will never fail to do the right thing whatever that be.

The intent is not really pure when someone prays for a destruction, that is my take on it.

I lived for a long time with a woman who were several decades my age and who entrenched in the new age movement was a "bleeding heart". Whenever we would go to the coffee shop, she would quickly among some of the friends around find someone that needed her help, whether that be bodywork, Reiki, breath therapy or past life regression. There were always someone who needed help. She too did this out of a good heart and the wanting to ease another human beings suffering. What was amazing to see however was that the friends would sort of keep a certain distance to her after a while, or not turn up for free sessions and on and on. I think she genuinely wanted to help out of a good heart, but what was lacking was the respect of the other peoples free will and the fact that one can not do the lessons for someone else. She looked more and more frail as the years went on and in desperate need of looking after herself.

But with praying you do not ''do the lessons for someone else''. I also don't think that woman did this, I think she simply saw this ''helping others'' as her main source of food, maybe she didn't know otherwise. The people maybe started to become tired of her and decided to not come anymore (being the food). Maybe it is also entangled with the way she was raised, becoming a ''people pleaser''.

I think this example is inappropriate as we are here talking about the sending of prayers on a daily if not weekly basis, if I understand Oxajil correctly. If someone falls in the river and I am there, I will not hesitate to jump in and save the person, but I doubt this situation is occurring more than once in a life time if at all. It is something that happens out of the blue and not something that you will have thought about before hand, which is the issue with praying for someone else. The drowning person situation is therefore a case of the specific situation.

It's not really about how many times something is being done, but what is being done and why. You will not hesitate to jump in, but let's say you have had the time to think it over, what will you do?

Again I think that you are stretching the topic at hand. Offering help is not imposing either. Agree totally, but with praying, there is the issue about asking, thereby an offer to pray. It leaves the other the option to say yes or no. With publishing sott, people have the option to say yes or no. It is not forced down peoples throat as a way of curing them of the pathocratic ills. Sott is simply offered as an alternative to the mainstream which people can read or not. The choice and thereby the decision is theirs to make.

You still cannot explain how praying without permission is violating free will.
It is a form of asking, and everything will go the way it goes, as the Universe permits.

Laura once said:

Most asking takes place in action, no words!

And I have noticed the same. It depends on the person and situation before I pray for them.

Offering is not interfering. Offering is open, whereas interfering is closed and does not leave the victim much choice. The pedophile who violates a minor is interfering with that child, he is not offering something to the child that gives the child the chance to say yes or no.

So you see praying without permission as a pedophile molesting a child? Wow.
The difference is that the one who prays Does give the freedom, and Is open. There is faith in the Universe that things will go how they would naturally go. As the C's said, prayers go to 6th density.

I am pleased that you are not proposing to go out in the streets ;) But regarding the issue of prayer I think that there are general guidelines AND then there are specific situations such as the person drowning.

General guidelines? Then I must have missed that! It's a difficult subject to talk about you know, and we as 3D beings can't get too far in making a certain decision on how it is and should be. You seem to think that in specific situations it is okay to violate someone's free will (if that is how you see it), but if you do it on a weekly basis, it is superwrong.

I don't see the logic in that.

Free will is respected by STO but not by STS. Yes we are STS creatures, but our AIM is STO and therefore asking is all that is being suggested here in regards to praying for others. It was what started the discussion about how to alter the POTS for praying for others and where it was, rightly in my view, suggested to ask beforehand. So is it so hard to ask? and why? Are we afraid that the person will say no or reject us or??? There are specific situations such as coma etc, but in general terms, people are compos mentis and thus able to answer the question.

If you like to ask, then I think you should do that. As long as you can't clearly explain how one can violate someone else's free will by praying for them, by NOT anticipating, then I don't think I will do the same.

You see, I don't think I'm all powerful and that my prayers will have such a great impact on somebody's life, again that would be anticipating, no I just simply pray, and what happens, happens. I accept that. But if I were to think/assume that my prayers have a superpowerful and possible "dangerous" effect on someone, then Yes I would ask permission Every time! And having prayed for about as long as I can remember, I haven't seen any danger in this.

I think what became clear was that Oxajil prays mainly because of her own fear and insecurity and as Endymion suggested it might be a more direct way to pray for that part in herself that feels insecure rather than going a round about way of calming herself by praying for someone else. It is not clear that they most likely would welcome a prayer, at least that is only speculative. This is not to say that Oxajil is suggesting that they most likely would welcome a prayer, but it is how Windmill Knight has interpreted it, whether right or wrong.

What Endymion has said is certainly interesting, and I will be looking into that. But the reason would not be because I think it violates the free will.

The main key is: there is good, bad and the specific situation that determines which is which

 

[Gawan]

First I like to thank Oxajil for asking the questions about the prayer, because it bothered me sometimes too, if it is now violation of free will or not, when praying for someone else.

I've read a few posts from that discussion and I have to say that I tend to agree with Oxajil. Praying, if done without anticipation or expectation, is asking; it is not demanding or manipulating, nor determining others' needs. If you ask for the sake of others, it is a given that what you are asking for may be different than what is wanted or needed by them, so you already accept that possibility and trust that at some level the prayer was heard and the best possible outcome took place. And even if it was not heard, you are cool with that too because you were asking - not demanding.

It is also not the same as sending 'lov'n light', because you are addressing DCM or God or the Universe - or rather, the creative part of the Universe - so the Infinite Wisdom is the intermediary and will never fail to do the right thing (which may very well be leaving things as they are or doing the exact opposite than what we think is good). And if we were wrong in praying in the first place, rest assure that She will let us know about it too, sooner or later.

I agree with that, or so far I came to a similar conclusion following the discussion.

Also, I think we should consider that Oxajil is most likely not proposing to pray for those who clearly do not want to change their lives or ways. The way I understand it, she prays for people close to her who, to the best of her knowledge, would most likely welcome a prayer. I don't see anything wrong with that.

Sometimes, it also not directly asking with words: "could you pray for me" but it can be much more subtle imo, in body language for example.

The main key is: there is good, bad and the specific situation that determines which is which

This sums it up pretty well.

 

[Oxajil]

I've been thinking about this a little, and I think that praying also seems ''human'' to me. Because if you look at the core, it comes from caring about another. Just like wanting to help others, or giving others presents, giving others compliments, helping with the luggage, etc. And these things usually don't go by asking, as Gawan said you can notice from the behavior.
And of course, these all could be polluted by programs, ego etc. but if you look at the core or origin, I think it comes from the heart/conscience. One just needs to think about how one could make their praying, or whatever they do, to be more pure and less polluted. For example, will you be obsessed with your praying (and then become disappointed), or will you pray with an open mind? Will you think about the person's interests before you buy a present, or just buy one that you like and want that s/he'll like as well? etc.

I remember once, my parents were leaving to go on a holiday, me being a quite sensitive person started to cry a bit just after they waved goodbye looking at me when I was waving back, out of the window. I realized that it's okay to cry, it's normal. The thought that maybe it could be the last time seeing them, made me really sad. I started to pray to God and asked him to give them a safe travel and return, and to not let evil get close to them.
This came from me missing them, me caring about them, from my conscience. I didn't want to miss them and I didn't want them to get hurt.
Praying (for each other) is pretty normal in my family, by the way. Even though, we don't always say when we do.

This is what I naturally do, it is natural to me. Of course I realize that this praying might not do anything, but if it does and on some kind of level, some certain ''intersection'' takes place, between what I want, what they want, what my lesson is, what their lesson is, without violating any free will (or however the process might go), which might mean that my prayer might have an effect, and will actually be beneficial or neutral to their lessons, then why should I not? The C's have said: "If you continue to pray, there is no chance of your lessons being interrupted or deferred." And I think my prayers are somewhere safe, when they go to 6th density. And to know that your prayers are in the hands of Jesus (if you pray to him), it's a comforting thought too you know.

Maybe the question for you is; when can we speak of Free Will violation? Is there something like ''general guidelines'', or does it really depend on the situation?

 

[Aeneas]

Offering is not interfering. Offering is open, whereas interfering is closed and does not leave the victim much choice. The pedophile who violates a minor is interfering with that child, he is not offering something to the child that gives the child the chance to say yes or no.

So you see praying without permission as a pedophile molesting a child? Wow.
The difference is that the one who prays Does give the freedom, and Is open. There is faith in the Universe that things will go how they would naturally go. As the C's said, prayers go to 6th density.

No I do not see praying without permission as a pedophile molesting a child. It was an example to show the difference between offering and interfering.

I looked up interfere on the net and the synomyms for interfere are: butt in, interlope, intermeddle, intrude, meddle, mess, muck (about or around), nose, obtrude, poke, pry, snoop

But the definition says:

Definition of INTERFERE
1
: to interpose in a way that hinders or impedes : come into collision or be in opposition
2
: to strike one foot against the opposite foot or ankle in walking or running —used especially of horses
3
: to enter into or take a part in the concerns of others
4
: to act reciprocally so as to augment, diminish, or otherwise affect one another —used of waves
— in·ter·fer·er noun

I now take it that Windmill Knight used the word interfere as 3) : to enter into or take a part in the concerns of others

I did not know when I wrote the post, this meaning of the word interfere, but only meaning 1), 2) and 4).

General guidelines? Then I must have missed that! It's a difficult subject to talk about you know, and we as 3D beings can't get too far in making a certain decision on how it is and should be. You seem to think that in specific situations it is okay to violate someone's free will (if that is how you see it), but if you do it on a weekly basis, it is superwrong.

When speaking about general guidelines, I was referring to what you also say later in your email: The main key is: there is good, bad and the specific situation that determines which is which. This is what I meant by saying general guidelines. Sorry if that was not clear.

Free will is respected by STO but not by STS. Yes we are STS creatures, but our AIM is STO and therefore asking is all that is being suggested here in regards to praying for others. It was what started the discussion about how to alter the POTS for praying for others and where it was, rightly in my view, suggested to ask beforehand. So is it so hard to ask? and why? Are we afraid that the person will say no or reject us or??? There are specific situations such as coma etc, but in general terms, people are compos mentis and thus able to answer the question.

I am getting the understanding from what has been said that it is pointless to ask beforehand and that it does not have anything to do with the free will of others. It still does not sit quite right with me, so I will be with that for a while.

If you like to ask, then I think you should do that. As long as you can't clearly explain how one can violate someone else's free will by praying for them, by NOT anticipating, then I don't think I will do the same.

Yes, I will continue to ask, as I have not found reason not to.