Prehistoric Astronomy and the Younger Dryas Catastrophe?

Gaby

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I finished reading the book and I have to admit that I found it pretty fascinating. It is written in a very easy format for the lay reader and I particularly enjoyed his take of the outdated model of uniformitarianism and how they criticize the catastrophism school based on blind spots and wishful thinking.

Even though I'm not good at mathematics, I was able to follow his explanations and was inspired to watch a couple of videos on precession. I finally feel better oriented in space. I'm getting the stellarium software to play around any now and then! The explanations of the apsidal and nodal precession made sense too, specially after reading mkrnr's posts. Thanks for the explanations, mkrnr!

I also enjoyed the tour of the solar system, the Taurids swarm, Centaurs, etc. The ancient zodiac system was pretty fascinating too.

It is mentioned in the end that the Greenland crater was discovered as the book went on print. Good timing, eh? Hopefully the Greenland crater will be dated more accurately, and we'll get a better idea of what happened in the distant past and what might await in the future. Highly recommended reading!

Added: More info on the Greenland craters:


 

gnosisxsophia

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I wonder if the "H" symbols carved into the stones have something to do with the plasma 'chalices' that are supposedly seen as a result of electrical activity associated with comet approaches.

Funny, I was thinking about Robert Schoch's theory regarding stone carvings (waves, multiple serpents etc.) as representations of 'plasma' discharges the other day and found myself revisiting Sweatman's concept of 'snakes as meteors' while ruminating on pillar 33. Recognising then that there happened to be a rotated 'H' (or 'I') prominently placed that I hadn't noticed previously;


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Which started me thinking along your lines;


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Finding this cool image along the way;


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Which only made these orientations more maddeningly compelling:


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Particularly if there was any historical correlation with the 'H' stones from Puma Pumku....

Don't imagine you could pretend to sneeze at the next session and accidentally yell out "what's with all the bloody Aitches???" - or something could you mate ?

Only joshin', what else would I do with my time ;-)

Cheers
 

itellsya

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I found the book really interesting too. Whilst i wouldn't be confident in saying whether or not Sweatman is correct, what i found particularly fascinating was how the key derived from Gobekli Tepe could seemingly explain imagery used by cultures spanning tens of thousands of years, and how practical and logical the idea is.

If i'm understanding it correctly, an example of this would be the animal heads of the Egyptian gods and how they were originally intended to represent constellations tracking the path of the cometary swarm - and these animal heads had always puzzled me - from this angle, they suddenly make much more sense. It was only later that the knowledge was forgotten or lost and they became gods in their own right, and their zoomorphic appearance was then related with some attribute of the god themselves.

I know that elsewhere it has been proposed that gods, like Zeus, were clearly related in some way to comets and catastrophes, but Sweatman, imo, shows just how practical these people were being. And, for me, it shows just how human these people were. At least in the beginning, the imagery wasn't conjured up by some delirious priest and then worshiped for ages for reasons people never understood. But instead, like many things that last, even if they're no longer understood, the original inspiration was extremely significant. They weren't simpletons drawing the landscape and it's animals outside, they were practical and creative people trying to record something much more profound.

Sweatman follows these clues and the movement of these peoples from Gobekli Tepe and Çatalhöyük in Turkey, over thousands of years, and later when he thinks these peoples moved into Egypt. Although, if his decoding of European cave art is anything to go by, chances are groups throughout the world were recording these events in a similar manner for posterity.

If this key is correct, it will be interesting to see what other ancient artefacts it could provide insight into. For example, the Shingir idol found in Siberia seems to encode something in its design, or the Hittite 'calendar', also in Turkey. Although it's also possible they could be related to something else entirely and i guess one has to be careful to not force the same insight - if Sweatman is onto something here - onto everything.

Added: Having watched the first 3/4 youtube video's Sweatman has put out, so far, i think that anyone who hasn't read the book can get a good idea of his theory from there.
 
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itellsya

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Funny, I was thinking about Robert Schoch's theory regarding stone carvings (waves, multiple serpents etc.) as representations of 'plasma' discharges the other day and found myself revisiting Sweatman's concept of 'snakes as meteors' while ruminating on pillar 33. Recognising then that there happened to be a rotated 'H' (or 'I') prominently placed that I hadn't noticed previously;
[...]
Which started me thinking along your lines;
[...]
There's an article on SOTT about a Scottish Doctor who, in 1827, saw similarities between Pictish and Tibetan imagery, which to me seems similar to some of those images you've posted above. He proposed that people from Tibet travelled to Scotland and that's why they share similar symbols. While it's not necessary for travel to have occurred for peoples to share similar symbols, it is interesting how alike they are, and to wonder what they could be depicting:

As a comparison, the image you posted above with those from the article:

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To the left is a Pictish stone, to the right are Tibetan:
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Notably, in the article it states:
In particular, he drew comparisons between the dorje, the Tibetan thunderbolt symbol - which represents abrupt change in human consciousness - and the prominent Pictish symbol of the double disc.
The article in full:

Is key to indecipherable Pictish stones to be found in ancient Tibetan symbols?


Alison Campsie
Scotsman
Sat, 25 May 2019 20:16 UTC






Buddhist Drawing
© British Library.
Drawing of ancient Buddhist ceremony which shows Tibetan monks holding a bell and dorje - a thunderbolt symbol - which Dr TA Wise believed inspired the Pictish double disc symbol which can be found on standing stones across the north and east of Scotland.
Thomas A Wise, a doctor from Dundee, left Scotland 1827 to take up a position in the Bengal Medical Service. It was a journey made by many Scots medical graduates before him.

His 23 years in in India fuelled an intense interest in the cultural and social aspects of his adopted home. He wrote treatise on the Hindu system of medicine, diseases of the eye and preservation of ice while investing heavily in a hospital and servings as the Secretary to the Committee of Public Instruction in Calcutta.

But it was his theory that suggested the ancient Buddhists of Tibet travelled to Scotland to meet the Picts of the North and East that truly consumed the polymath.

On retiring from medicine in 1851, Dr Wise returned to Scotland and absorbed himself in ambitious archaeological projects, such as the excavation of the the Barry Hill hillfort near Alyth and the Iron Age broch near Dunrobin.

He became fascinated by the similarities he saw between the Tibetan objects in his collection of relics collected on his travels and the symbols etched into the Pictish standing stones of home.

His theory was that Buddhist missionaries came to Scotland and used the symbols as teaching tools before being developed by the Picts and used as a visual language.

In particular, he drew comparisons between the dorje, the Tibetan thunderbolt symbol - which represents abrupt change in human consciousness - and the prominent Pictish symbol of the double disc.

Dr Wise also found similarities between Tibetan round towers and the cromlech, a form of single-chamber megalithic tomb.


dr wise
© McManus Museum and Art Gallery
Dr TA Wise left Dundee to work for the Bengal Medical Service in the 1820s. He developed a deep interest in the antiquities, society and culture of his adopted homeland.
He wrote numerous papers on the subject which culminated in his final publication in 1884, The History of Paganism in Caledonia with an Examination into the Influence Asiatic Philosophy, and the Gradual Development of Christianity in Pictavia.

Several presentations to the Scottish Society of Antiquaries were made.

Christina Donald, curator of early history at Dundee Museum and Art Gallery, said: "His view was that Buddhist monks came to Scotland and used stones and symbols as teaching symbols for the Picts before Christianity took over.

"I wouldn't call it a crackpot theory but it is not a theory that would be accepted today, but it is interesting that no one has really come up with the definitive theory that explains Pictish standing stones."

Pictish double disc

The Pictish double disc symbol on standing stones found at (left to right) Monifieth, Aberlemno and Dunnichen. It's meaning is unknown.
Ms Donald said that Dr Wise was investigating Pictish era at a time when little research was being done on the group of people who populated parts of the North of East from around the 3rd Century and the 10th Century.

But his theories were far from perfect, she added.

Ms Donald said: "When he excavated Dunsinane Fort in Perthshire he claimed the skulls that were found there were from the Far East, so he did try and shoehorn his theories in where he could.

"But at the same time, he was thinking about these things at a time when very little was written about the subject. TA Wise was also one of the first to think of the stones as one body of work."
dorje

Dr Wise drew comparisons with the dorje, which represents the thunderbolt and an abrupt change in human consciousness in Tibetan Buddhism, and the double disc symbol used by the Picts.

"How we think of Pictish stones is almost the same today. The interpretation of Pictish stones, and how we think about them, hasn't moved on that much."

Ms Donald said it was possible that the disc was merely a universal symbol used by both societies. There is no evidence that Buddhists travelled to Scotland around this period, she added.

Meanwhile, recent research in the North East has concluded that the Romans may have influenced the Picts in the development of their own written language about 1,700 years ago.

Work to accurately date Pictish sites was conducted by a team, led by Dr Gordon Noble at Aberdeen University and National Museum of Scotland at Dunnicaer, a coastal fort near Stonehaven.
Dr Wise
© McManus Museum and Art Gallery.

A page from the notebook of Dr Wise which shows his work on the theory that connects Pictish symbols to those of Tibetan monks.
It is now believed that the site is home to the oldest Pictish stones in Scotland with a new dating system placing the remnants to as early as 3rd Century AD.

Previously, scholars dated the country's earliest Pictish stones to anywhere between the 5th and 7th centuries

The new chronology also fits with the spread of Roman writing systems, suggesting the occupying force may have partially inspired their script and the use of symbols to represent significant names and places.
-Wise Ways, Travels of A Dundee Doctor examines the life and legacy of TA Wise and pulls together a number of artefacts from his collection, now in the keep of the city, as well as a selection of maps and drawing held by the British Library. The exhibition is currently on show at the McManus Museum and Art Gallery in Dundee.
In addition, bearing in mind possible errors in dating, as well as the new, earlier dates for the Picts, ~ 3rd Century AD, it's interesting that there may have been a revival of Crannogs (artificial islands on lakes with buildings on top) around that time in Scotland.

Crannogs: Neolithic artificial islands in Scotland stump archeologists

In Loch Tay, of the 13 crannogs that have been radio-carbon-dated, nine date back to the same period as Oakbank. Four others seem to have been built 2,400 and 1,800 years ago. Those two spikes in activity - one in the mid-first millennium BC, the second toward the end of the millennium - echo a trend seen throughout Scotland.

In part, this may have stemmed from the same reason that caused a boom in Welsh hill forts in the same period: climactic deterioration.
 
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gnosisxsophia

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There's an article on SOTT about a Scottish Doctor who, in 1827, saw similarities between Pictish and Tibetan imagery, which to me seems similar to some of those images you've posted above. He proposed that people from Tibet travelled to Scotland and that's why they share similar symbols. While it's not necessary for travel to have occurred for peoples to share similar symbols, it is interesting how alike they are, and to wonder what they could be depicting:

Thank you itellsya,

A Tibetan / Pict relationship is certainly not something I had come across previously!

The Z bar / Double-disc also a symbol very close to my heart, literally - tattooed as it is on my inner left bicep.


...which represents abrupt change in human consciousness...

And that's pretty much my interpretation of the meaning also :-)


...bearing in mind possible errors in dating, as well as the new, earlier dates for the Picts, ~ 3rd Century AD, it's interesting that there may have been a revival of Crannogs (artificial islands on lakes with buildings on top) around that time in Scotland.

Interesting.

Cheers

J
 

Laura

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Thank you itellsya,

A Tibetan / Pict relationship is certainly not something I had come across previously!

The Z bar / Double-disc also a symbol very close to my heart, literally - tattooed as it is on my inner left bicep.

itellsya said:


There's an article on SOTT about a Scottish Doctor who, in 1827, saw similarities between Pictish and Tibetan imagery, which to me seems similar to some of those images you've posted above. He proposed that people from Tibet travelled to Scotland and that's why they share similar symbols. While it's not necessary for travel to have occurred for peoples to share similar symbols, it is interesting how alike they are, and to wonder what they could be depicting:

And that's pretty much my interpretation of the meaning also :-)
Thing is, these symbols more likely depict plasma phenomena that were later given "esoteric" meanings after the real meaning was lost.
 

gnosisxsophia

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Thing is, these symbols more likely depict plasma phenomena that were later given "esoteric" meanings after the real meaning was lost.

Yes agreed, definitely celestial phenomenon of some form or other, one could assume? Personally I get a real 'Realm Crossing' vibe from Z rod imagery so wearing my own design helps serve as a reminder to keep my eyes up.


FWIW, Dr. Sweatman has an article on the Pictish symbols...

Thanks Vulcan, funnily enough that's how I first came across Dr Sweatman :-)

Further to his interpretation regarding solstices, I also wonder (as have others) if the origin of the 'Z' pattern may also have reflected some form of retrograde motion in the heavens?
 

rrraven

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''Thing is, these symbols more likely depict plasma phenomena that were later given "esoteric" meanings after the real meaning was lost. ''
indeed here is a lady going into detail how this happened , this video about Thor is a good example
Thor IS the geomagnetic field protecting us from ''bad stuff'' from space and the Norse people knew
 

Gaby

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Prehistory Decoded part 6, shows the evolution of the bull symbol from the earliest times
He thinks the Pictish symbols at around 500 AD are the last example of the ancient zodiac he uncovered in the book, and also that the Mithraic Tauroctony depicts a date around 3000 to 2500 BC.
 

mkrnhr

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He thinks the Pictish symbols at around 500 AD are the last example of the ancient zodiac he uncovered in the book, and also that the Mithraic Tauroctony depicts a date around 3000 to 2500 BC.
I kind of remember reading about a similar date proposed independently elsewhere. Maybe here in the forum?
 

itellsya

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Short video by Brian Foerster on his trip to some sites in Turkey with Gobekli Tepe and its museum starting at 3mins 25 seconds. Foerster does some great little video tours of ancient sites that are worth watching for the visuals - he makes his money by selling tour packages with him as a guide - but his analysis is up for question so i would suggest bearing that in mind and just to enjoy the footage:

 

Pashalis

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Short video by Brian Foerster on his trip to some sites in Turkey with Gobekli Tepe and its museum starting at 3mins 25 seconds. Foerster does some great little video tours of ancient sites that are worth watching for the visuals - he makes his money by selling tour packages with him as a guide - but his analysis is up for question so i would suggest bearing that in mind and just to enjoy the footage:

Yes, his ideas and conclusions are rather questionable thanks mainly to a lack of knowledge in a number of areas including history, but I also regularly enjoy his hands on video tours of mysterious ancient sites. I‘m thankful that someone does this.
 

Laura

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I kind of remember reading about a similar date proposed independently elsewhere. Maybe here in the forum?
Pretty sure I wrote something about it in "Horns of Moses" - or maybe it is still in the unpublished part of the text. Maybe somebody can check the book. If it's not there, I'll dig up the file and copy/paste.
 
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