Programs.. and how to get rid of them

[atreides]

Anyway, in regards to this topic as a whole, I was reflecting on why so many of us have misunderstood how to contend with programs. In my opinion it’s because once we (and here, I speak for those of us who misunderstand) discover a program we are at once outraged and disgusted by it -- it threatens our previously false image of ourselves. We are disgusted much like we would be if we found a leech on our skin, sucking blood from us. As a result of this outrage and disgust, we immediately try to fight it (or rip the leech from our skin, if you like). We do this because, to us, it’s the logical response: to fight it, to destroy it. Or, as others have suggested, block or ignore it. It is my present understanding that neither are the answer. Both are just as ineffective as each other: fight or ignore, two opposing extremes.

Hi,

As you have expressed it, yes, I would opine that is a very backwards way to look at the whole thing. Speaking only from personal experience, it's important to understand that your reading instrument isn't just faulty, or misaligned, it's rather intentionally reversed in some cases, so that when you look inside, you often see an image skewed to the perception of whatever Eye is looking. Your greatest enemy is in fact one that most people seem to think is the real-ish them, their over moralizing with righteous indignation Eye, they think that this is in some way their conscience telling them that something is bad or good, so they start qualitizing their Eyes, and their programs. Everything is this black and white good/evil split.

IMHO this is just not even remotely useful, this is really why a network is not just important but necessary. If I didn't have my sisters, or my bros, I would be completely lost. When they say something about what I do or say, I don't just listen, I realize that it's time to shut up and accept an external opinion of myself until I can work to readjust how I think/react. People are always wanting to keep what they had before and simply augmenting it with what they get now, they don't realize that you gotta die to live, more directly, what you used to think needs to die, not because it's bad, or evil, but simply because without it, you become like a septic tank, sortof a vat of foul and decomposing filth which are your thoughts and ideas that are rotting from lack of application. Sometimes, you need someone to come along and drain your septic tank by saying, look dude, you are so full of shit you are going to burst. Eventually, you may become like a self-draining septic tank, so that all the shit you produce drains off of your own free will, but until then, you really need others to help you know when it's time to start draining off the filth.

Looking at it this way is very good I think, because you really have no right to judge any part of your self, one Eye judging another is like a turd passing judgment on a puddle of urine. Puts everything in perspective.

I'll repeat what Henry wrote:

First, as people have said, it is necessary to observe, really observe the programme. What situations trigger it? What physiological changes do you feel when it starts? How quickly after it starts, do you become aware it is running. You can spend a long time just observing. You will find that you begin to identify it earlier and earlier in the cycle. If you aren't yet at the point where you observe it early in the cycle, you won't be able to stop it.

An important step is developing that other part of you that observes the programme while it is running. It is the part that senses that the programme is not you. Until that part is developed, there is no one home to turn off the programme. But it takes time.

So don't set goals that are unattainable. Set realistic goals. Don't try to stop the major programme first. Work on smaller ones. All the while you will be strengthening that part of you that one day will be able to choose whether or not to run the stronger programmes.

So one step at a time.

*my emphasis added

Programs are not an objective in and of themselves, they are not these evil alien things that you don't need, in fact, you cannot live without them in some respects. You never really get rid of them, if you think of them as features of the software that is you, that functionality more often than not stays in, it just needs to be modified, controlled, and perhaps meshed with another feature of the software that is you. In that sense, programs are more like methods. You may have such a program, called elicit_pity, who knows, maybe you'll need that program sometime, you don't want to get rid of it, but you do want to control it, you don't want it firing off all the time cause that's a drain on resources. You also don't want it to start performing on the wrong kind of person or data.

Sorry about descending into programming talk on that one, still, I think I got the idea across as best as possible. Perhaps look at it like this, the objectives with programs are: identification, observation, reconstruction/deconstruction, utilisation/obliteration. Others in close proximity to you will be 1000 times quicker at identification and observation of your programs than you, hence the reason close proximity networks are fundamentally necessary for working.

Prematurely focusing on self-observation for program hunting is really very dangerous, because you can end up becoming a total me person, me this, me that. If all you do is look inside, you'll end up getting lost in there. People tend to love looking bad when it comes to programs, it's like that scar scene from Jaws, everyone saying hey look, I'm a predator, I'm a narcissist, I'm a pity ployer lalala. Guess what, we all are. Everyone is sometimes a predator, sometimes a narcissist, sometimes a pity ployer etc. Everyone is dogshit, so stop trying to be special dogshit.

So yeah, that's my opinion on proggies.

 

[Ominous]

So, basically, every reaction or action we have/take is a program. Some are bad, some good, but all are necessary? Don't try to get rid of them, just track them back to their inception & get control over them? That's what I got from the last post. It must come down to applying sheer willpower coupled with correct knowledge...its too easy to be impulsive.

 

[Nathan]

My impression is that only some may be necessary. These are the programs that can be reconstructed and utilised. Whereas the programs that serve no use are not necessary at all and can potentially be controlled. Of course to even determine whether a program is necessary or not would take months, even years, of observation to begin with. So even thinking about their usefulness at such an early stage of observation is counter-productive. In my opinion, it would be best just to observe for now, and divert the rest of your energy to other equally important aspects of the Work, which I think is what has been suggested to us already -- only it didn't sink in for me until our favourite protagonist from Dune explained it from a different angle. ;)

 

[Aiming]

Wanna express my utmost gratitude again.
Atreides, your straight analyzation of all that shite in me was shocking and I've started to assimilate it all. It left me back with zero. Everything has to be reversed, as you even pointed out in another post.
I greatly appreciate that you took the time to wake me up to my own catastrophe.
Thank you, Atreides!

 

[Telperion]

I think an important thing that Gurdjieff talks about is in the beginning to strive to observe oneself and not to make any changes. When one attempts to do that sincerely, then it becomes clear how difficult even THIS is, to sustain any kind of consistent self-observation, or 'self remembering' as G calls it.

Agreed, I'm tentatively at the beginning of the observation stage stage and it's AMAZING how easy it is to slip into the usual auto pilot mode.

From my limited understanding so far I see that programs can not be gotten rid of per se, but more like circumvented.

 

[Psalehesost]

This used to contain my first post. I now realize that it was rather early - my understanding not really up to scratch, so to say - and that it quite sticked out as such. Rather than adding another post of unknown value (though I am now, I think, getting half-awake rather than simply tossing and turning in my sleep) to and bumping up the thread, I'll just quote and address what I wrote in place:

Following my self-observations, some of my current thoughts (not too baked or noodly, I hope :P), stated (I state this so as to not cause potential misunderstandings from "between the lines"-readings) in a matter-of-fact way for simplicity of writing. It's what I have arrived at in the process of dealing with the residue of my (now) old OCD-ish issues.

Still dealing with this issue. Now less of an issue, but the inner considering is still hampering my mind; I've realized that it for me is toxic, and that the only way for me is to fully get rid of it.

Having observed this forum for a bit, would surprise me if you didn't jump all over this post seeking to tear any dubious parts to shreds - I hope you do, as such would mean potential for improvement. :)

Neither did it happen, nor did it really surprise me. Oh well, here I go going about it myself! ;)

1. The will seems to be a single whole, where the appearance of autonomously running mental processes is an illusion. What programs do is to manipulate your will through triggered associations and other conditioning that serve to "schedule" them, making your will - for an instant - bend accordingly, starting the program.

Discussed in detail in what I've since read. Only replace "will" (something quite different, I now realize) with "consciousness" and define the "bending" as identification.

As soon as the program has started, it can be observed and, where possible, controlled. The important thing to realize is that your will has been bent; once you bend it back, you can stop adding fuel to the fire of the program, reducing its activity. After that, its activity can be extinguished without causing you to - through self-delusion - fight back against yourself.

Once again, will and the bending thereof should be consciousness and identification with the little "I"s, the latter being something I "see"/"feel" as a "bending" during introspection. This "bending of consciousness" reduces the clarity of mental sight as it is hard to "see around the corners", so to say. Ceasing identification straightens the mental surface out, as I "see"/"feel" it.

As for the "fighting back" I mentioned, I've noted that as mechanical reactions cause "pulls" of the mental surface in some direction or another, this in turn prompts reactions from that dragged along, possibly resulting in a cacophony of mental pulling in all directions. As the "acting against" a mechanical program is in turn typically a mechanical program activity (and so it works until you get some actual will involved), this, as it "pulls" in one direction, often results in pulling back.

2. The programs, when activated, cloud the mind; this clouding enables self-delusion to take place, which is what allows the programs to act against your will. You simply do not see that you actually extend your will into the program as it runs, in essence running and powering it, making it act as you see it act as you see it.

Once again, replace will with consciousness. And quite simply, the bolded part above is wrong - the programs simply act as it happens; they have no actual understanding, typically being of a sort that simply reacts in a one-dimensional way by association. (be there something more complex?) If they do not understand more than a single thing and that only in terms of "react more/less" or "react this way/that way" according to a measured variable, how could they possibly understand "my will", which (the former understanding thereof) I now by the way realize to be a subjective construct? The identification simply makes the programs "act out" however they happen to work, which hasn't got anything to do with what I falsely imagined to have anything to do with my will.

3. "The observer" doesn't move through the mind in order to see it, not being in any particular "place" within it - that's what "the thinker" does. So, "shaking" your mind a bit will make the thought "move" with it, but not the observer - which, for a moment, helps distinguish the two. Also, if you catch yourself trying to "move through" your mind in order to observe it, you are doing the "observation" with the wrong "you".

"The observer" is consciousness, which is "normally" passive, simply experiencing the mechanical action. While contorted in all sorts of ways by identification, that identified with remains separate, and while hard to distinguish while stationary and firmly sucked stuck onto that which it parasites on (the consciousness), it, like all "iron filings" as the material describes it, can be moved around, and then, before it once again settles into a particular position, be distinguished by its movement.

4. Programs are fueled by conscious attention grabbed by "the thinker" - reclaiming such to the observer by observing starves them in the short term. The finite resource of conscious attention seems semi-analogous to CPU-time in the realm of the mind. In addition, once you see through a program, fully exposing its mechanism of operation, you can dispel the self-delusion, making the program implode. Which doesn't get rid of it permanently, but merely crashes it for now. Having done it once makes it much easier to do it again, though. Unless the ending of the program starts to become habitual, in which case you doubly need to watch-out.

Revised:

The activity of little "I"s is fueled by conscious attention grabbed through identification. Once a program is seen through and understood, it is easier to de-identify, ceasing the activity. It is important to make sure not to form programs that mechanically take over your efforts to defuse programs, as you'll then just mess around instead of actually getting something done. When something starts becoming habitual, watch carefully.

5. Running and being focused on makes programs grow stronger over time; denying them the ability (once possible) to run makes them atrophy and eventually fall apart. Toasting the associations (by overwriting them, which requires no more than strong focus and a moment of clear vision, though it typically has to be repeated a couple of times) that trigger an unwanted program is an easy method of dooming it to atrophy. (in the brain, bit rot is a force to be reckoned with ;)) As for identifying said associations, so can be done when a program is freshly started by observing where it triggered; go through what happened just then and see what prompts activity from the program.

I half-knew what I was talking about there.

Edit: First edited a few months after date of posting; now simply to fix quotes which no longer matched my username

 

[Seamus]

After reading through this thread I would like to offer my thoughts, as this topic has often occupied my mind. From a young age we pick up many programs from the people around us, from popular culture, books, movies, television, etc. Programs govern our reactions to the (re)actions of others and they compose our inner dialog. They form a self reinforcing fabric that allows us to travel through our lives without being present. Programs are "the world that has been pulled over our eyes." In Castaneda's "The Fire from Within," Don Juan says (I'm paraphrasing) that our inner dialog and our sense of self importance are the things that fix our awareness in certain bands of perception. He encourages Castaneda to laugh at himself. Whenever our sense of self importance is threatened, defensive programs are automatically triggered. Our inner dialog is made up of the stories that we tell ourselves about who we are and about our place in the world. It is a constant stream of judgments (of ourselves and others), of categorizations and blanket generalizations and self reinforcing observations. As was mentioned earlier, programs are all about "Me." They are habituated responses that allow us to interact(react) with each other and with the world without having to think, without being present or conscious of our actions.

Several of the posts in this thread have referred to "good" and "bad" programs and how we might eliminate or eradicate the "bad" programs from our lives. I have struggled with this concept for several years. Initially I tried to find ways to improve myself by trying to initiate "good" and "productive" programs while identifying and "cutting out" bad programs. I did not find this approach to be effective for me for several reasons. First of all, I found that I was constantly judging myself for having all of these "bad" habits and programs, I got down on myself for being unable to sustain my attempts to initiate "good" programs, I told myself I wasn't good enough, that I was fundamentally flawed, if I only tried a little harder I would be able to progress at a faster pace.... constantly reacting to myself, fighting myself, pushing back and forth (you see where I'm going with this). Fighting your programs just stirs up the pot.

So what should we do?

Cultivate awareness. Cultivate a sense of grounding and a feeling that you are present. Listen to what your body is telling you. Laugh at yourself. For me this means meditation. I have practiced several forms of meditation and have tried yoga, pilates (don't laugh), tai chi and several other forms of moving meditation off and on for the last 6 or 8 years, but it is only recently that I have started to unify my practices. There are dozens of threads in this forum that refer to these disciplines and many others (search for spinning, yoga, meditation, etc.). If you are just starting out (or even if you've been working for a long time), you should join a meditation class and a yoga (or something like it) class. If you can't join a class (to rural of an area maybe) get some decent books and start there (I'd recommend "Somatics" by Thomas Hanna as a simple physical discipline you can do on your own).

This is my meditation advice to you (this is the advice I try to follow myself):

Sitting meditation can be very useful in your attempts to observe your mental process, but you should keep in mind that your goal is to observe, not to force change, not to reprogram or fight your thoughts. Sitting meditation practice is called a practice because you are practicing your mental observational, you are practicing the idea that you can be aware of yourself and the world around you so that you can choose how to act, rather than reacting without thought (letting the programs run). While you sit you should try to become aware of the stories you tell yourself; become aware of your inner dialog and your programed reactions. Try to watch your thoughts, without judging them or categorizing them as good or bad, desirable or undesirable. It is my understanding that all programs arise, good or bad, as a result of our ego trying to protect itself, they arise from self love. After a time you will feel a sense of remoteness, of detachment. "You/I" is no longer tied to the thinker, no longer tied to the thoughts and judgments. When you feel comfortable you should try to recall situations that made you feel uncomfortable, angry, extremely happy.... situations that have strong emotions attached to them. As you bring up the memory in your mind, try to be aware of the reactions in your body (yoga will help you to connect to your body). This is where the programs play out. This is where you can make some real progress in identifying how the reactions work, how they come up. Let the reaction begin play out, then practice pausing.... remember that you are meditation, check in with yourself and try to observe how the reaction effects your body and your mind. You will probably find that as your mind narrows and tightens, certain areas in your body will do the same. Your shoulders may rise, the center of your back may ache, your chest and throat may feel tight, etc. If you are getting down on yourself for having such awful feelings and thoughts your body will get tighter and tighter. You will feel a whole range of emotions. Be patient, stick with it..... remember to laugh at yourself! (Are you REALLY the center of the universe?)

Several early post in this thread alluded to the effects of programs on our bodies and the idea that physical pain might be tied to our emotional or mental patterns. It has been my experience that this is definitely the case. Yoga or something similar will help you to tie into what is happening in your body, which will in turn help you to deal with you your mental programs. This makes sense if you think about it. Our emotions play out in our bodies in specific ways that are triggered by hormones, and programs are habitual mental responses to similar situations. In my own practice I have been able to work on specific areas in my body that have bothered me for some time (sore shoulder, tight hip). As I have become more flexible in those areas, I have begun to have breakthroughs in my sitting meditation with programs that have been especially difficult to deal with. I hope you will have (or have had) a similar experience.

Observe your body's response and accept it. You can be aware of your emotions and accept them and choose not to lash out and act out and react to them. And I don't mean this in a "hey.... just roll with it 'cause everything's gunna be fine, Kid" kind of way. I mean relax and watch. Be patient. They call it "The Work" because you have to work at it. Your impulse to control and fight and change what you don't like is tied to your sense of self-importance. Many of your emotions and feelings are tied to self importance and reaction programs. As you watch and remove yourself from your internal dialog, it will become easier for you to choose. Practice pausing in you meditation practice, practice being present with your body so that you can do the same in your life! You may find that you find your reactions humorous after a time. If you practice watching your (mental and physical) tension as you replay your common interactions/reactions with your boss/family member/arch nemesis in your meditation practice, when you have your next inter/reaction with them and watch the same reactions come up, the same old programs jump into action, just as you expected, you may find the tension of the moment drop away. You may naturally pause to laugh at yourself, as if you were caught with your hand in the cookie jar. Once you start to become aware of your own enormous sense of self importance, it really is funny. As you become aware of your thoughtless thoughts and reactions they will melt away in layers because they don't seem so important anymore.