Programs.. and how to get rid of them

[Aiming]

I have been doing the Work only for a couple of months. Surely, it could be I'm still merely dreaming of doing the Work, because so far I was doing it on my own, without anybody to check and without discussing any of my experience here on the forum.
What I know is I have to get rid of predatorial programs and of those that originate from other psychological conditioning.
Having begun this, I have observed the following:
1) There are so many programs!!!
2) It is very hard to get rid of them.

In discussions on this forum concerning 'programs' it has been said (as far as I've understood it) that those programs need to be fougt.
So, I've been fighting against programs coming up, if I noticed them in time and not only after a situation has occured.
The thing is, however, some of these programs are so massive, so forceful, that even if I fight them with all my strength in the very time they are occuring, they simply keep running and running. This goes so far that I (the observing and fighting part) am desperately trying to block the program, while the program simultaneously keeps running, as if it was detached from me, as if it existed no matter if I was there or not. And the worst thing is, it affects my behaviour and body language, although (!) I am fighting it!
Well, I know, learning is fun. And I know, this process of the Work is far from easy and it sure takes time and experience and will power.
But let me ask this question:
>> Is there any specific method to fight programs? <<
With predatorial programs I simply try to block them.
With psychological conditioning programs (ie patterns arising from childhood, gender, personal issues etc) I first track them back and then, too, try to block them. As, so far, tracking them back does not lead to their elimination. In theory, the most logical way to handle psychological conditioning programs would be to substitute them with conscious behaviour, b e f o r e another program makes its way through. OSIT

And: Is blocking/repressing a program actually the real way on the path towards STO?
It doesn't seem so to me, as this strikes me similar to conventional medicine: 'Cure the symptoms, this will cure the disease. The origins don't matter.' *)see below
That is, with blocking them, you're not really handling them, you're just shoving them away; and where you're putting them you cannot even know, because you have not handled them, so you cannot be sure if there're gone. Most definitely they'll just come up in the next related situation.
I could be wrong, of course.
>> Or is the way to handle these programs 'simply' to keep blocking them, many many years, always blocking them, and if this is done for a specific amount of time, you have 'won' over them, so to speak? ie Just keep fighting them and after you've accumulated years of experience and therefore 'energy', there will be a point where nothing of this kind can enter you anymore?<<

I'd really appreciate your comments, ideas and also corrections.

(I think I've read all related posts on this forum. However, in case I've missed one, please excuse me. I'll catch up on it then.)




*) I know the C's said somewhere (cannot provide the link) that sometimes it helps to simply cure the symptom and not the origin of a disease or a pain, because thereby one is cutting off the energy flow. But I think you'll get my point. If not, let me know.


p.s.
It could be that my differentiation of programs might be confusing or not clear.
With predatorial programs I mean all those that are about dominating others, stealing energy or forcing others to give you energy, eg attention, ie all that has to do with manipulation.
With psychological conditioning programs I mean those that one could call 'personal issues'. ie Everything that has shaped the individual, for example 'no love in childhood > feelings of insecurity' or 'father a sexist > daughter identifying only with her outer appearance and how to please a man' or 'had no father > every man fitting the dreamed of profile becomes the admired idol/father figure' and so on.
Hope this will clarify.
And please feel free to correct me in anything. There's probably even a better way to name these kinds of programs. I've not yet read any of the recommended books, only the Wave, most of Adventure Series, Forum threads and articles from SOTT. Gotta be saving some money first to work myself through the recommended book list.

 

[vinny]

I think an important thing that Gurdjieff talks about is in the beginning to strive to observe oneself and not to make any changes. When one attempts to do that sincerely, then it becomes clear how difficult even THIS is, to sustain any kind of consistent self-observation, or 'self remembering' as G calls it.

To fight against one's programs before having gained a detailed understanding of what they are and how they work, seems to me to be putting the cart before the horse, tempting though it is to immediately try to fix oneself once one starts to see these things.

I thought this was worth pointing out, as it is something I've had a tendency towards, myself.

 

[Aiming]

Oh it sure is worth pointing out, Sleepyvinny, thanks a lot !!
Means I've misunderstood how to go about doing the Work. Thank you!
(I'll definitely have to read G's works soon. So far I've only been reading quotes from his work here on the forum.)

So let me repeat to check if I understood correctly:
First step I've to take is 'simply' observing everything within me (which I've been doing), while gaining an understanding which is which and where does each of it come from. For instance, a program would be 'seeking attention and approval from others', which would be originating from eg neglect experienced in childhood. Or 'considering oneself very special and wanting others to see and acknowledge it, too', which would be a matter of ego, hubris and probably wishful thinking.
>> Is this the way to track back the programs within? <<
And if it is, what to do with it? How then does one change oneself?

Okay, so to attain a consistent self-observation and gaining a detailed understanding of what programs are and how they work, is in itself a very
difficult matter. Let's say, a person, after long ordeal has managed to attain this, ie he/she has as objective a picture about him/herself as is possible. >> What then is the next step? Clearly, there must, at some point, come up the necessity to finally change all that which one has found inside, which stems from the 'robotoid' psyche.
>> Does a year- or even life-long self-observation a la Gurdjieff result in a different kind of psychic strength, which then enables to delete the programs?
I'd appreciate your comments.

 

[Tarri]

Hi Essence,

I know exactly where you are coming from. I have been trying to work on my preditory programs. I have identified the major ones that seem to dominate, and trying to keep them from activating and taking over has been exhausting. I find myself sitting in the bathroom crying because I lost the fight again.

When I have alone time I can reflect on it, and it confuses me as to how difficult it was to stop the program at the time. It's like trying to stop a tsumami wave hundreds of feet high with a dinner plate.

I have not contributed much to the forum for some time, in my attempt to get a handle of what seems to be an overwhelming delemma. To find that someone else is having the same agonizing problem helps, if only to let me know that it is somthing we go through.

I wonder also if that each time I fail to control the programs, if they themselves get a stronger and stronger hold on me, or if it is just the anxiety of the moment.

Than as you stated, the C's say learning is fun, so perhaps I (we) are being to hard on ourselves to expect some sort of observable results. I know sometimes I feel I am failing and perhaps do not have the needed rescources within, required to make the change. That is scarier yet.


Yet, there is tiny voice that says, to calm down, relax, stop trying to force it. That each of us has our own way and speed.

But how do I deal with the reality that everytime I loose to a program, I have in some form hurt myself and another in some way. And feeding the enemy. Can I salvage myself from some of the gilt by the fact that I am working to change?

I am constantly going over the work, I am currently going deeper into the Wave Series. I have read a couple of Gurdjeff's books in the past.
I understand the basic concepts of the Work, but perhaps I (we) are missing something.

Tarri

 

[Cyre2067]

I think sleepyvinny has a big point. Trying to change your behavior won't work directly, behavioral changes come with increases in awareness that result from the knowledge accumulated via self-observation, osit.

For example, from my own life, I notice I have a strong "Be Social" program. I think it has a lot to do with being raised in a large family, growing up in a tight neighborhood and always having friends to play with. It took a lot of time to see how pervasive it is, to see the depth of the program, and to consciously acknowledge when it's running. I found I had a plethora of justifications and excuses to cover it up.

In order to fight this program I try to isolate myself and do something constructive, walk the dogs, read a book, work on web design - anything because when I'm with my friends I can't do anything constructive and we end up having an STS fest of movies/videogames/food. Not that there's anything wrong with that once in a while, but when it's every night afterwork and all weekend long it definitely inhibits growth.

 

[PepperFritz]

Than as you stated, the C's say learning is fun, so perhaps I (we) are being to hard on ourselves to expect some sort of observable results. I know sometimes I feel I am failing and perhaps do not have the needed rescources within, required to make the change. That is scarier yet.

I would suggest that feelings of self-condemnation, failure, guilt, frustration, etc. are also symptoms of a program -- i.e. the need to see oneself as "good", "perfect", and "worthy", to "succeed" -- and therefore should also simply be "observed". When your car isn't working properly, you don't normally pass those kinds of emotion-laden judgements on it -- you simply observe the symptoms to find out what is not working properly, and then endeavour to make changes to improve its functionality. You are no less a machine than your car, and hard as it is, you have resist the impulse to wallow in your own unworthiness, as it is only a further impediment.

I try not to be "goal-oriented" in my approach to the Work, as that is so tied up with our ego-driven wants and desires. I figure that if I clearly and dispassionately observe a behaviour/program often enough, I will eventually weary of it. If I have to "fight" that hard to change a behaviour, I know I have not yet come to a sufficient understanding of it, through consistent observation, and must observe some more.

This is my experience, anyway, for what it is worth.

 

[Niall]

Let's say, a person, after long ordeal has managed to attain this, ie he/she has as objective a picture about him/herself as is possible. >> What then is the next step?

I think that a person who has as objective a picture about him/herself as is possible knows what the next step is. To be where he/she is, they will have vastly broadened their knowledge, sharpened their perspicacity, assimilated this knowledge with their whole being, fused their centers and thus acquired gumptions of free will!

No need for them to worry about what the next step might be :)

 

[Tigersoap]

And: Is blocking/repressing a program actually the real way on the path towards STO?

The problem is : can you stop your program by willing it alone ?
Repressing would just mean to stop observing your program as it is.
Ignoring that it's there would not help you gain understanding on how it works,that's why self-observation will help you to gain enough strength to finally chose to stop it osit.

I wonder also if that each time I fail to control the programs, if they themselves get a stronger and stronger hold on me, or if it is just the anxiety of the moment.

Hi Tarri,

Maybe they do feel to get stronger because you are actually seeing them clearer than ever.
As if you were discovering your shadow for the first time against a wall, it might look stronger and bigger than what it really is, maybe the analogy is not correct though.
Our programs were always there, i suppose this is a normal reaction when you cast the light on them at first but i could be wrong.

 

[Ominous]

I've read the Wave, Adventures, the Grail, and various articles on psychopathy, and I'm still not sure what a program even is, much less how to spot one. I've begun reading the Wave again to try and obtain a better comprehension of the Work, and exactly what it is. I have a vague, general idea about it and about programs, but still lack the understanding I feel I need to progress.

 

[Russ]

As far as I know, a program is in essence - "if X happens you will do Y", obviously it can get a lot more complicated but the general idea is the same, ie. your actions are predetermined by these programs. These programs can be instinctive, or learnt, or just because you may have a tendancy to be emotional before thinking etc.

 

[Ominous]

So, a program is anything I do that has become habitual? Oh boy...so a program could possibly be physically attatched to your being, & cause physical pain when you go against it? For example, drug addiction? Or, in another way, how you handle your relationships, what you eat, where you work...is everything we do a program?

 

[Zadius Sky]

So, a program is anything I do that has become habitual? Oh boy...so a program could possibly be physically attatched to your being, & cause physical pain when you go against it? For example, drug addiction? Or, in another way, how you handle your relationships, what you eat, where you work...is everything we do a program?

Hi Ominous,

This truly insightful thread, "Buffer, Programs, The "Predator's Mind," might answer your question regarding programs (if you have not read it yet):
http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=6419

I agree with others' input. Self-observation (observing one's emotions) may be the first step in knowing your programs. Once, you recognize it and know where it came from, then you would make a choose to act on it or not, osit.

 

[henry]

First, as people have said, it is necessary to observe, really observe the programme. What situations trigger it? What physiological changes do you feel when it starts? How quickly after it starts, do you become aware it is running. You can spend a long time just observing. You will find that you begin to identify it earlier and earlier in the cycle. If you aren't yet at the point where you observe it early in the cycle, you won't be able to stop it.

An important step is developing that other part of you that observes the programme while it is running. It is the part that senses that the programme is not you. Until that part is developed, there is no one home to turn off the programme. But it takes time.

So don't set goals that are unattainable. Set realistic goals. Don't try to stop the major programme first. Work on smaller ones. All the while you will be strengthening that part of you that one day will be able to choose whether or not to run the stronger programmes.

So one step at a time.

 

[ScioAgapeOmnis]

So, a program is anything I do that has become habitual? Oh boy...so a program could possibly be physically attatched to your being, & cause physical pain when you go against it? For example, drug addiction? Or, in another way, how you handle your relationships, what you eat, where you work...is everything we do a program?

Yup, there's really no limit to how extensive and elaborate a program, or a group of inter-related programs can be, and what actions, thoughts, and behaviors they will activate. Check out this glossary entry for more info:
http://glossary.cassiopaea.com/glossary.php?id=17&lsel=

Note especially the part that says, "Entire conversations can proceed with the parties triggering various associations, mechanically invoking programmed responses from each others' store of responses."

That's pretty fascinating I think - the above can be most obvious if you observe people during "small talk", but it is also constantly active during all forms of conversations, including long "intellectual" ones. In the case of long elaborate conversations or speeches, it may be most obvious when observing a psychopath in a conversation (written or verbal, whatever). A good example is basically any speech by Bush or other government members, mainstream news anchors, talk shows, etc. I think it may be easier to see programs that belong to psychopaths because they may be different than programs of "normal people" (well, it really depends on how ponerized the "normal person" in question is). The less ponerized you are, the more "alien" a psychopath's thinking process will seem to you, the less identified you will be with it, so it's easier to see their programs as a result.

Seeing programs in action in normal people can be a bit more tricky because a lot of those programs are probably the same ones you would have as well, so their thinking process may mimick yours and you wouldn't see anything "mechanical" in it, since you may not see the mechanicalness of your own thoughts. But as you observe yourself and spot yourself with mechanical thoughts and actions, it becomes easier and easier to see them in others since you now know where they really originate.

Hmm another good place to look is at heavily religious people. The "circular arguments" and other similarly conversive and subjective thought process are often pretty obvious there.

This story is a good example from here:
http://www.cassiopaea.org/cass/wave13a.htm

Recently a parody of door-to-door evangelizing was sent around the internet. It was so exceedingly irreverent that it probably was too shocking for many people to understand how truly enlightening it was. For those who may not have seen it, I am going to include it here because it makes very important points that need to be emphasized.

John: "Hi! I'm John, and this is Mary."
Mary: Hi! We're here to invite you to come kiss Hank's ass with us."
Me: "Pardon me?! What are you talking about? Who's Hank, and why would I want to kiss His as?"
John: "If you kiss Hank's ass, He'll give you a million dollars; and if you don't, He'll kick the sh*t out of you."
Me: "What? Is this some sort of bizarre mob shake-down?"
John: "Hank is a billionaire philanthropists. Hank built this town. Hank owns this town. He can do whatever he wants, and what He wants is to give you a million dollars, but He can't until you kiss his ass."
Me: "That doesn't make any sense. Why..."
Mary: "Who are you to question Hank's gift? Don't you want a million dollars? Isn't it worth a little kiss on the ass?"
Me: "Well maybe, if it's legit, but..."
John: "Then come kiss Hank's ass with us."
Me: "Do you kiss Hank's ass often?"
Mary: "Oh yes, all the time..."
Me: "And has He given you a million dollars?"
John: "Well no. You don't actually get the money until you leave town."
Me: "So why don't you just leave town now?"
Mary: "You can't leave until Hank tells you to, or you don't get the money, and He kicks the sh*t out of you."
Me: "Do you know anyone who kissed Hank's ass, left town, and got the million dollars?"
John: "My mother kissed Hank's ass for years. She left town last year, and I'm sure she got the money."
Me: "Haven't you talked to her since then?"
John: "Of course not, Hank doesn't allow it."
Me: "So what makes you think He'll actually give you the money if you've never talked to anyone who got the money?"
Mary: "Well, he gives you a little bit before you leave. Maybe you'll get a raise, maybe you'll win a small lotto, maybe you'll just find a twenty-dollar bill on the street."
Me: "What's that got to do with Hank?"
John: "Hank has certain 'connections.'"
Me: "I'm sorry, but this sounds like some sort of bizarre con game."
John: "But it's a million dollars, can you really take the chance? And remember, if you don't kiss Hank's ass He'll kick the sh*t of you."
Me: "Maybe if I could see Hank, talk to Him, get the details straight from him..."
Mary: "No one sees Hank, no one talks to Hank."
Me: "Then how do you kiss His ass?"
John: "Sometimes we just blow Him a kiss, and think of His ass. Other times we kiss Karl's ass, and he passes it on."
Me: "Who's Karl?"
Mary: "A friend of ours. He's the one who taught us all about kissing Hank's ass. All we had to do was take him out to dinner a few times."
Me: "And you just took his word for it when he said there was a Hank, that Hank wanted you to kiss His ass, and that Hank would reward you?"
John: "Oh no! Karl has a letter he got from Hank years ago explaining the whole thing. Here's a copy; see for yourself."

From the desk of Karl


1) Kiss Hank's ass and He'll give you a million dollars when you leave town.
2) Use alcohol in moderation.
3) Kick the sh*t out of people who aren't like you.
4) Eat right.
5) Hank dictated this list Himself.
6) The moon is made of green cheese.
7) Everything Hank says is right.
8) Wash your hands after going to the bathroom.
9) Don't use alcohol.
10) Eat your wieners on buns, no condiments.
11) Kiss Hank's ass or He'll kick the sh*t out of you.


Me: "This appears to be written on Karl's letterhead."
Mary: "Hank didn't have any paper."
Me: "I have a hunch that if we checked we'd find this is Karl's handwriting."
John: "Of course, Hank dictated it."
Me: "I thought you said no one gets to see Hank?"
Mary: "Not now, but years ago He would talk to some people."
Me: "I thought you said He was a philanthropist. What sort of philanthropist kicks the sh*t out of people just because they're different?"
Mary: "It's what Hank wants, and Hank's always right."
Me: "How do you figure that?"
Mary: "Item 7 says 'Everything Hank says is right.' That's good enough for me!"
Me: "Maybe your friend Karl just made the whole thing up."
John: "No way! Item 5 says 'Hank dictated this list himself.' Besides, item 2 says 'Use alcohol in moderation,' Item 4 says 'Eat right,' and item 8 says 'Wash your hands after going to the bathroom.' Everyone knows those things are right, so the rest must be true, too."
Me: "But 9 says 'Don't use alcohol.' which doesn't quite go with item 2, and 6 says 'The moon is made of green cheese,' which is just plain wrong."
John: "There's no contradiction between 9 and 2, 9 just clarifies 2. As far as 6 goes, you've never been to the moon, so you can't say for sure."
Me: "Scientists have pretty firmly established that the moon is made of rock..."
Mary: "But they don't know if the rock came from the Earth, or from out of space, so it could just as easily be green cheese."
Me: "I'm not really an expert, but I think the theory that the Moon was somehow 'captured' by the Earth has been discounted*. Besides, not knowing where the rock came from doesn't make it cheese."
John: "Ha! You just admitted that scientists make mistakes, but we know Hank is always right!"
Me: "We do?"
Mary: "Of course we do, Item 5 says so."
Me: "You're saying Hank's always right because the list says so, the list is right because Hank dictated it, and we know that Hank dictated it because the list says so. That's circular logic, no different than saying 'Hank's right because He says He's right.'"
John: "Now you're getting it! It's so rewarding to see someone come around to Hank's way of thinking."
Me: "But...oh, never mind. What's the deal with wieners?"
Mary: She blushes.
John: "Wieners, in buns, no condiments. It's Hank's way. Anything else is wrong."
Me: "What if I don't have a bun?"
John: "No bun, no wiener. A wiener without a bun is wrong."
Me: "No relish? No Mustard?"
Mary: She looks positively stricken.
John:( He's shouting.) "There's no need for such language! Condiments of any kind are wrong!"
Me: "So a big pile of sauerkraut with some wieners chopped up in it would be out of the question?"
Mary: Sticks her fingers in her ears."I am not listening to this. La la la, la la, la la la."
John: "That's disgusting. Only some sort of evil deviant would eat that..."
Me: "It's good! I eat it all the time." (Mary faints.)
John: (He catches Mary.) "Well, if I'd known you where one of those I wouldn't have wasted my time. When Hank kicks the sh*t out of you I'll be there, counting my money and laughing. I'll kiss Hank's ass for you, you bunless cut-wienered kraut-eater." With this, John dragged Mary to their waiting car, and sped off.


Did you get it? Did you REALLY get it? And did you see how accurately it portrays the whole religious mindset? Most important, did you notice how "good rules" can be posited for the express purpose of establishing Faith in rules that are not only lies, but are actually detrimental to growth and development? And did you notice how cleverly this little skit actually captured the dynamic of the "true believer?"

More than that, the totally illogical and nonsensical dynamic of "believe this" or you will be damned, punished or otherwise "left out" of some exclusive club is the essence of STS stalking wherein confusion and cross-purpose prevents a clear perception on the part of the Stalkees.

 

[looisos]

In some of my readings of the 4th way works, there is a specific methodology in working with the I's (programs)

some of you may have read this as Gurdjieff/Ouspensky describing the creation of a metaphorical "bitter pill" which one swallows, resulting it a growth of being. This idea was called the "Holy Equation"

1. Observe - Self observation
2. Acknowledge - Identify that the Observed program exists as an affirmation
3. Accept - Realize that the program is there, but it is Not you ( not real I )
4. Transform / Transcend - by going through steps 1-3 you are actively transforming the program into energy , which diverts the energy the program utilizes into your own efforts to grow your being.

Some programs can be dealt with in this process very quickly ... others can take years to change. No effort is ever wasted.

here's a more technical description of it:

_http://www.endlesssearch.co.uk/exercises_holy_equation.htm