Psychedelics being pushed today from multiple vectors.

[eightyfour]

The whole psychedelics will cure your addictions or depression idea being promoted like a wonder drug. Is not realty explaining the full story of how the expediences of those substances cures depression. The experience can be like an internal hell or at least extremely uncomfortable. How it helps people is by forcing them in to the repressed parts of the mind and experiencing it. It can go horribly wrong as in a trip to the asylum and the repercussions that come with that. I do think that if ya aware enough of the layers in the mind and can not fear the fear so to speak it could be a useful experience.

 

[Abats]

Four or five years ago, I took a single high dose of LSD at home alone with the intention of getting to know myself better and understanding the nature of the reality I was living in. I was not suffering from anything in particular. The experience lasted about 10 hours, I put a recorder on and described everything that was happening in my head, my heart, my environment. It was one of the most beautiful experiences of my life and also one of the most emotionally hard. I had a lot of realizations and cried for about 4 hours. This experience really changed me because I saw / understood that the nature of our world is only a tiny part of what it really is and that everything is alive / connected. I found that the structure of my experience was not chaotic or erratic on a perceptual level. I also felt a fusion between my emotions (demultiplied) and my intellect, as if an internal reconnection was taking place. I could hear my own voice in my head and at the same time I had the impression that it was not mine, but that of the little boy I was coming to the surface and supporting me emotionally.

The most saving realization was how I saw my parents and especially why my father had been the person he was. This allowed me after this experience to write him a letter and to find a form of appeasement with him. There were so many other things that happened. Of course, I could be accused of being "crazy" for doing this alone in my apartment, but I was well prepared after reading a lot of articles and I knew I was capable of being my own support and being able to trust myself. I had this moment of deep intimacy with myself in a way. I didn't find a God as many say and maybe "sell" psychedelics but I had this sense of being part of a whole and that there really is a deeper meaning to our existence and that there is a "divine" reason we are here.

However, I never wanted to do it again because I found what I was looking for and nothing will convince me to do it again. The big problem with psychedelics is the psychological dependence they can induce (The world is more beautiful "over there than here") which is a huge trap because it doesn't allow you to want to "work on yourself" to continue to develop and integrate other awarenesses.

By discussing with other researchers, we came to think that the goal of pharmaceutical companies is to recreate a "SOMA" as in the book "Brave New World", that is to say to remove the hallucinogenic function and the altered state of consciousness induced by psychedelics to make it only a pill of happiness. Imagine having to go to the office to do a job that you usually hate, but thanks to this pill you will enjoy doing "shit", if you will pardon the expression. It would be a quality asset for the PTB, I don't think we'll get there and the world will change before then but we really need to have a very moderate speech about these substances. I can say that the suffering experienced during this session under LSD was not necessarily a free meal, I have the impression to have put at work a lot of elements and it was necessary to pass by hours of tears but necessary to this transformation.

 

[Alejo]

However, I never wanted to do it again because I found what I was looking for and nothing will convince me to do it again. The big problem with psychedelics is the psychological dependence they can induce (The world is more beautiful "over there than here") which is a huge trap because it doesn't allow you to want to "work on yourself" to continue to develop and integrate other awarenesses.

And not only what they offer, as a free experience of a shortcut to beauty, but those experiences hook themselves within us.. without the adequate level of self awareness, one can truly end up in a negative place, inside of a jail with a window to a beauty that is forever out of reach.

The other trouble with it, is that by artificially skipping the work that would get one to the place where one has that emotional release, in a more gentle (or painful) manner, is that one doesn't exercise the muscles that get one there, it's like taking steroids to enhance physical performance, the results are attained, but the strength or endurance isn't there.. which means it's false.

I am not saying that in your case it was false, what I mean is that, what is so easily attained, and in such a short period of time, whatever realizations or intimations of divinity and unity, and the clarity one experiences as one escapes ones regular way to perceive reality, doesn't really stay with the self, it's not a long term change.

The experience feels so foreign, that it can feel transcendental and indeed divine, but that is all one has in the end.. a memory of someone else's perception of reality, it isn't oneself.

To give one example, it's like a shy guy(or girl) who grows confident after a few drinks, he's not really growing confident, he's simply skipping the steps to become confident artificially and momentarily with the use of a substance, once the substance wears off, the shy guy is still there... although now he's dealing with a hangover, an empty wallet, and perhaps enamored of the person he "becomes" (although it would probably be more accurate to say, that overcomes him) under the influence.

So, it's really tricky, and even dangerous, to adopt someone else's perception of reality, one that was attained artificially.

 

[Zzartemis]

have found that lecturing people not to play in the mud doesn’t really keep anyone from playing in the mud.

I know this from myself trying to warn others but I also know that I was warned by my father and I too in the end didn’t listen.

I have found that the older I get, the less I talk. In these times, very few youngins' appreciate advice from an old bird like me...she's, gasp,....a boomer!
Instead, I communicate in ways our youth can relate to:

 

[Candice]

I have found that the older I get, the less I talk. In these times, very few youngins' appreciate advice from an old bird like me...she's, gasp,....a boomer!
Instead, I communicate in ways our youth can relate to:
View attachment 68355

I agree and that meme is perfect but the youngins will see that pic and in response will think it’s cool, they don’t care about the danger. Which is why I too now remain silent as even my worst shared experiences just excite people even more, the total opposite reaction of what I intended.

There is a great current psyop especially amongst young people seeding an idolization of meeting entities, channeling, starseeds, qhht etc. For some reason they don’t see the danger, they instead think it’s exciting. Just so much ignorance coupled with ego and hubris.

 

[Princess Lux 🌷]

However, I never wanted to do it again because I found what I was looking for and nothing will convince me to do it again. The big problem with psychedelics is the psychological dependence they can induce (The world is more beautiful "over there than here") which is a huge trap because it doesn't allow you to want to "work on yourself" to continue to develop and integrate other awarenesses.

I totally agree. I have also tried Ayahuasca and remember lying in the ground cursing for the uncomfortable feeling it gives right before you go tripping and telling myself why Im doing it when I could have those insights through meditation just without the perks of the vivid vision of sounds transforming to beautiful shapes and colors.

It is only indeed a shortcut to those who don't want to sit with themselves. I am amazed of the experience and would honestly admit that I am thankful for it. I have many take aways from the experience and one is there's really nothing grand on the other side like going to different spiritual realms and seeing all those lords. The fun and magic lies here and now with the life I'm creating.

 

[Zzartemis]

I agree and that meme is perfect but the youngins will see that pic and in response will think it’s cool, they don’t care about the danger. Which is why I too now remain silent as even my worst shared experiences just excite people even more, the total opposite reaction of what I intended.

There is a great current psyop especially amongst young people seeding an idolization of meeting entities, channeling, starseeds, qhht etc. For some reason they don’t see the danger, they instead think it’s exciting. Just so much ignorance coupled with ego and hubris.

Oh yes, Candice! No matter how horrific some of the sights I've seen are, I'll still get a, "That's so cool," remark.

On so called spirituality, I want to puke, every time I hear ppl bandy around the term 'Shadow Work.' 4th Way Work is so practical and effective, but few are attracted to it because it's boring to most. And here I'll drop another meme :


I just found the following video and posted it elsewhere for my young friends....It fits perfectly here:
SHADOW WORK: NEW AGE RIP OFF...

 

[whitecoast]

I can say that the suffering experienced during this session under LSD was not necessarily a free meal, I have the impression to have put at work a lot of elements and it was necessary to pass by hours of tears but necessary to this transformation.

Sounds like you did get some good benefits out of it. I find that sometimes when people give a knee-jerk responses to some things with the general addage "there is no free lunch," they can make presumptions and assumptions about what "payment" is and isn't in ways that can frame an event without looking at the wider picture. An example would be winning the lottery. Are lottery winners "cheating" when it comes to, say, circumventing lessons about money? Some people can win the lottery and have it ruin their lives and interpersonal relationships. Other times it could get a person out of a nasty hole, or some other type of reprieve. Laura won the lottery and used that to get a pool. Intention counts for a lot I'm sure. Payment can be made before, during, after, possibly even in another lifetime.

 

[Asa]

This is a good thread, thanks to everyone that contributed.

I attended an ayahuasca retreat in the Amazon approx three years ago - it was a 10 day, 5 ceremony retreat. The time I decided to go I was six years sober in AA, and had recently separated from my son's mother and been skinned alive in Family Court. I'd done a lot of research into the dynamics that led me to be involved in such a toxic relationship, and the results were fairly ugly. The most apt description of my behaviour I found was 'covert narcissism.' I was angry, confused, and determined to move through that period of my life and come out better for it.

By that stage of life, I was no stranger to 'mystical' experiences either, having attended many meditation retreats in a Tibetan and Theravadan Buddhist context. I seemed to have a 'natural aptitude' for 'attaining' exalted meditative states of consciousness, entirely sober, so fancied myself well prepared for the visionary component of ayahausca. The big fear I had was flouting the boundaries of sobriety as it is defined in AA, whose proponents would assert that 'to drink is to die' for a recovered alcy like me. I had also 'excelled' at the programme of AA, and got sober and turned my life around quickly. All of this 'spiritual attainment' was a great source of 'aw shucks, who me' food for my covertly narcissisitic personality.

The ceremonies - and one in particular - were utterly terrifying. There is not much point in going into the detail as I cannot make any sense of it even now. My human mind is incapable of describing it. In hindsight I think I was fortunate to escape with my soul in tact, and I am convinced that 'journeying' of this kind is extremely dangerous. It may have led to some of the utter weirdness that followed me around after that - abduction experiences, regular encounters with ethereal beings in the hypnagogic state etc etc. These occurred with a traumatising regularity until I found this forum some time later, and used melatonin before sleep to 'see' what was acutally going on, after which it petered out. I think concentrating on basic life things, my career, my personal relationships etc in a healthy way, may also have gradually loosened the grip of the attachments I probably picked up on those meditation and ayahuasca retreats.

Having said all that, I think going on that retreat was the first decision I made for myself in my entire life, notwithstanding the obvious cultural influences. Because of my membership of AA at the time, it was anathema to attend a retreat like that within my social circle. But I went ahead and did it anyway. As such, I see that as the first meaningful choice I made which was not the sole product of mechanical behaviour produced by environmental and biological factors.

Would I recommend it to any one else? Hell no, not now. I think it is fraught with terrible risks that I barely understand.

It was a bad decision, but at least it was my decision.

 

[Abats]

The other trouble with it, is that by artificially skipping the work that would get one to the place where one has that emotional release, in a more gentle (or painful) manner, is that one doesn't exercise the muscles that get one there, it's like taking steroids to enhance physical performance, the results are attained, but the strength or endurance isn't there.. which means it's false.

I am not saying that in your case it was false, what I mean is that, what is so easily attained, and in such a short period of time, whatever realizations or intimations of divinity and unity, and the clarity one experiences as one escapes ones regular way to perceive reality, doesn't really stay with the self, it's not a long term change.

The experience feels so foreign, that it can feel transcendental and indeed divine, but that is all one has in the end.. a memory of someone else's perception of reality, it isn't oneself.

To give one example, it's like a shy guy(or girl) who grows confident after a few drinks, he's not really growing confident, he's simply skipping the steps to become confident artificially and momentarily with the use of a substance, once the substance wears off, the shy guy is still there... although now he's dealing with a hangover, an empty wallet, and perhaps enamored of the person he "becomes" (although it would probably be more accurate to say, that overcomes him) under the influence.

I can understand this point of view but I think it is too generalized and cannot be applied to everyone. It would be a mistake to throw the baby out with the bathwater. I can imagine that many users of psychedelics do it for fun or because it is new age and in contexts that have absolutely nothing to do with a will to understand oneself and to work on oneself. Some people probably don't have the broad shoulders and the necessary anchorage to see the experience for what it is and not for what it could be.

This was not a state reached easily either as I felt I was processing trauma 50% of the time. It was a bit of "if you want to touch heaven, you have to go to the roots of hell" The audio recording allowed me to look back on my experience and understand more about my connection to my family, how I view myself. Today this experience remains as having had benefits on different levels, this goes hand in hand with the studies on depressed patients where the results on the long term are still quite significant. Maybe I'm wrong here but I have the impression that we have been oversold the effects of psychedelics @Alejo ? The idea of the shy guy reminds me of the person who takes a hit of cocaine and then falls back in a bad way, I still think that for a part (even a small part) of the people who have experimented with psychedelics with the intention of working on themselves and a proper set and setting, it doesn't seem to fit this situation. Nevertheless your message is an interesting contribution to this thread as you correctly point out that nothing is obtained/understood/integrated without suffering and effort.

 

[Alejo]

Sounds like you did get some good benefits out of it. I find that sometimes when people give a knee-jerk responses to some things with the general addage "there is no free lunch," they can make presumptions and assumptions about what "payment" is and isn't in ways that can frame an event without looking at the wider picture. An example would be winning the lottery. Are lottery winners "cheating" when it comes to, say, circumventing lessons about money? Some people can win the lottery and have it ruin their lives and interpersonal relationships. Other times it could get a person out of a nasty hole, or some other type of reprieve. Laura won the lottery and used that to get a pool. Intention counts for a lot I'm sure. Payment can be made before, during, after, possibly even in another lifetime.

Well, yes and no, sometimes you don't miss the wider picture per se, you are actually looking at the very particular picture and seeing how the decision is made, and THEN explained, not to deny the particular instances of beneficial and positive outcomes, but to acknowledge the nature we all possess of explaining our choices to ourselves after the fact in order to safe guard our psyche.. does that make sense?

And in the example of the lottery, well you kind of do pay ahead, you pay for the ticket... which implies your intent, winning the money.. unless, of course, you found a winning lottery ticket that someone else paid for.

I can understand this point of view but I think it is too generalized and cannot be applied to everyone. It would be a mistake to throw the baby out with the bathwater. I can imagine that many users of psychedelics do it for fun or because it is new age and in contexts that have absolutely nothing to do with a will to understand oneself and to work on oneself. Some people probably don't have the broad shoulders and the necessary anchorage to see the experience for what it is and not for what it could be.

I agree, my point was more towards long lasting effects that go beyond memories of experiences in someone else's shoes. I am not saying is always negative, nor always positive, I was saying that the intensity of the experience, of such large perception, does belong to someone else, someone that one hasn't worked to become, and the memory lasts, because of its intensity, but it remains as that.. for the most part, which is disconnected from one's experience. Does that make sense?

Like living the life of a millionaire for a day, and then going back to one's regular financial status. It does matter how one uses that experience and memory, of course, so it's not negative by default, but it would remain that.. a memory.

This was not a state reached easily either as I felt I was processing trauma 50% of the time. It was a bit of "if you want to touch heaven, you have to go to the roots of hell" The audio recording allowed me to look back on my experience and understand more about my connection to my family, how I view myself. Today this experience remains as having had benefits on different levels, this goes hand in hand with the studies on depressed patients where the results on the long term are still quite significant. Maybe I'm wrong here but I have the impression that we have been oversold the effects of psychedelics @Alejo ? The idea of the shy guy reminds me of the person who takes a hit of cocaine and then falls back in a bad way, I still think that for a part (even a small part) of the people who have experimented with psychedelics with the intention of working on themselves and a proper set and setting, it doesn't seem to fit this situation. Nevertheless your message is an interesting contribution to this thread as you correctly point out that nothing is obtained/understood/integrated without suffering and effort.

So perhaps I misunderstood you, are you saying that your experience was akin to going through the roots of hell?

And yes, I do believe we have been oversold the effects of psychedelics, on both ends, the ones that praise it and the ones that demonize it by default, the substance does what it does, and it is the individual who reacts to it.

And that was my point, about the individual who goes through it, and how truly honest with themselves they are about their reason to go through the experience. As I said above, my concern or warning wasn't really against an inert substance, or the practice of using it, nor was I questioning your story.

My warning was more about how creative and convincing we can be with ourselves about the goals we have by bringing ourselves to use a substance with such potential. Which I think you mentioned, becoming enamored with the experience, and I was expanding on that by saying that to me that experience belongs to someone else really.

So what I was highlighting is the importance of that self honesty, not just about the intent, but also about one's ability to justify what feels good one way or another, because that is the biggest hook that such a substance would have to turn into a dependance.

I hope the above was clear.

 

[iamthatis]

I spent four years very deeply involved in a 'plant medicine' cult. What I can offer is a warning. The experiences under the effects of these sorts of substances may seem like love and beauty and knowledge, but the forces of manipulation always use that which is most precious to us in order to lure us in. Such 'experiences' can't actually be trusted. This was very difficult for me to understand, because my experiences seemed so real, so unquestionable, and so intimate to me, so very much my own - and yep, you guessed it - sacred.

Even for basic reasons of psychological hygiene in everyday situations, I think it makes sense to question our experiences and our interpretations of them, and seek other possible interpretations. This is really amplified when talking about psychedelics. In particular if this or that experience has a subtle label in the mind reading 'do not question'.

It was only after reading Masquerade of Angels by Dr. Karla Turner that I was able to truly understand how little I could trust my own experiences, my own memories, and my own mind. Although Turner's book is not directly related to psychedelics, it applies here. I'd highly recommend it for exploring how Matrix forces can reach inside us and convince us that what we thought was an experience of pure love and beauty and knowledge was in actual fact a horrific violation.

 

[Oxajil]

I think perhaps it's good to remind ourselves of the dangers and limitations of LSD and others:

Q: I want to you have lost a fan because he was not happy with what he considered to be "internal inconsistencies" in that you were NOT favorably disposed toward hallucinations produced by substances such as Mescaline and Ayahuasca, but yet you recommend Melatonin because it is a hallucinogen. Then, you said that spiritual powers could not be obtained through chemicals or plant type means, but then said that Melatonin exercises psychic abilities. Could you comment on this?

A: Several comments: First of all, "fan" is short for "fanatic." Secondly, melatonin does not force an alteration in physiological brain chemicals, as do mescaline, peyote, LSD, etc. Accessing the higher levels of psychical awareness through such processes is harmful to the balance levels of the prime chakra. This is because it alters the natural rhythms of psychic development by causing reliance on the part of the subject, thus subjugating the learning process. It is a form of self-imposed abridging of free will. Melatonin simply allows the system to clear obstructions in the brain chemistry naturally, thereby allowing the subject to continue to learn at a natural pace. And, it is by no means unimportant that melatonin is a natural body hormone. The other substances mentioned are, at least in part, synthetic, with the exception of peyote. But even that is not a natural ingredient of the human physiological being.

Plant substances may be beneficial in very desperate cases:

(Nicholas) I have a question about Gabor Mate's use of ayahuasca. Seems like he's pretty responsible and he may be onto something that seems to help. I was just curious if what he's doing is viable?

A: He works with fairly desperate cases and situations, including his own. Thus the use of plant substances, as he does, can be likened to desperate measures when nothing else works or when time is of the essence. In some cases, as with using aspirin to break the cycle of pain, such things can be used once to break such a feedback loop and not be needed again. It can be rather like a "reset". But, be aware that true spiritual growth is not achieved this way. But if one simply needs a "reset" to normalize, this sort of thing may be beneficial.

Even then one would need to be very careful and only use it once. And in those cases mushrooms would probably take the preference. In this session psilocybin was discussed.

The audio recording allowed me to look back on my experience and understand more about my connection to my family, how I view myself.

This can also be achieved through therapy, reading, networking, reflecting, meditation and prayer. These are methods that won't have the harms and risks that using plant substances could have (in some cases even death). Plus, the networking part would also benefit others.

Today this experience remains as having had benefits on different levels,

Okay, but it's also important to keep in mind the possible harms it may have done (and could have done) on levels you were and are not aware of.

It was a bit of "if you want to touch heaven, you have to go to the roots of hell"

If it feels like touching heaven (subjective), it doesn't mean it is!

this goes hand in hand with the studies on depressed patients where the results on the long term are still quite significant.

Only for some individuals (who are in dire situations).

The big problem with psychedelics is the psychological dependence they can induce (The world is more beautiful "over there than here") which is a huge trap because it doesn't allow you to want to "work on yourself" to continue to develop and integrate other awarenesses.

Yeah, or it doesn't allow you to work on yourself to learn lessons at a natural pace. FWIW.

 

[Turgon]

I think concentrating on basic life things, my career, my personal relationships etc in a healthy way, may also have gradually loosened the grip of the attachments I probably picked up on those meditation and ayahuasca retreats.

I'm glad going back to the 'basics' helped you, Asa. This is the hands-on groundwork that can often be taken for granted where we lose the sense and meaning of it all so go off in search of that meaning through a plant, drug or hallucinogen as a means of filling that void. The problem being, like has been pointed here, you never know what might come through. It could be positive, it could also not be. And may even lead to traumatic experiences that allow for 'attachments' to hop on board and cause all sorts of disruptions.

And if we are looking to work through trauma's, isn't that done through how we relate to the world around us, the relationships that we have with people, what we give to life (through career, personal relationships, interests) the importance that we give to the simple truth's in life. Why search for it in a substance outside ourselves for the answers to questions that are fundamentally closer to home? That you really are playing Russian Roulette in the sense it could be positive, but what if it isn't? It can be a long road back if it isn't.

 

[Alejo]

And if we are looking to work through trauma's, isn't that done through how we relate to the world around us, the relationships that we have with people, what we give to life (through career, personal relationships, interests) the importance that we give to the simple truth's in life. Why search for it in a substance outside ourselves for the answers to questions that are fundamentally closer to home? That you really are playing Russian Roulette in the sense it could be positive, but what if it isn't? It can be a long road back if it isn't.

And that long road can mean not being able to fully participate of those simple truths of life that, when thinking about it, really make up most of the experiences we take with us long past they have gone.