Psychic Self-defense, psychic protection

[Arwenn]

axj, I didn't reply straight away, because I wanted to really process what you were saying before coming back to you.

I have not made this decision lightly. In fact, if you read my thread where I discussed wanting to reconnect with mother, you will see that I was coming from that old program of duty, guilt if I didnt re-connect & she died, and if only I tried harder....I might get the mother who used to love me back. I was going back to the well.

When I had the realization that she used my children to hurt me, wanted to see me fail, and was upset that we were thriving (& it still makes me ill in the stomach writing & acknowledging this) that's when I made the decision that no "mother" (in the normal sense of the term) would do that. I chose to protect my children from this kind of abuse, rather than stay programmed to be a food source for them. Because that's all I'll ever be. The only way the dynamic will change (as I mentioned in that thread about ex-mother), is if for some reason the other two offspring can't/won't provide for her. But she has already displayed her true colours, so wishing for things to be different is an exercise in futility and wishful thinking.

Onwards and forwards.

 

[Oxajil]

Hi axj,

I think reading the book The Narcissistic Family could help you gain clarity on this subject; you may find the difference between covert and overt narcissistic family dynamics interesting. The book Strangers to Ourselves might also be of interest to you. Even though parents who want a good relationship with their children have the best intentions, it doesn't mean necessarily that they're taking the right approach, especially considering that we're mostly unaware of our behavior and how it affects others.

I haven't read it, but I see what you mean. Yes, I think that it is necessary get rid of those programs that want us to come back to the poisoned well, so to speak. Also, I don't think that the parents themselves are usually the "poisoned well". This "poisoned well" are the unhealthy dynamics that have been established long ago. If the dynamics can be changed through work on self, setting boundaries and so on - then we are no longer going back to the 'unhealthy' interactions.

Exactly. And sometimes that means limiting contact with one's parent(s).

 

[Gwenllian]

I have not made this decision lightly. In fact, if you read my thread where I discussed wanting to reconnect with mother, you will see that I was coming from that old program of duty, guilt if I didnt re-connect & she died, and if only I tried harder....I might get the mother who used to love me back. I was going back to the well.

When I had the realization that she used my children to hurt me, wanted to see me fail, and was upset that we were thriving (& it still makes me ill in the stomach writing & acknowledging this) that's when I made the decision that no "mother" (in the normal sense of the term) would do that. I chose to protect my children from this kind of abuse, rather than stay programmed to be a food source for them. Because that's all I'll ever be. The only way the dynamic will change (as I mentioned in that thread about ex-mother), is if for some reason the other two offspring can't/won't provide for her. But she has already displayed her true colours, so wishing for things to be different is an exercise in futility and wishful thinking.

Onwards and forwards.

I completely understand where you are coming from, Arwenn. I "divorced" my mother more than a decade ago and although at times it was difficult, because it meant being cut off from other family members as well I was more free to do as I saw fit. It didn't mean that I could just close that book, because I still had to process my childhood (still working at it), but at least her pathological presence was gone. I did try to reach out to her at one point, explaining what kind of therapy I had gone it to, but she simply did not want to know and I left it at that.

Thanks for the lovely quote, Oxajil, I remember it. I thought that was a great example.

 

[axj]

Hi axj,

I think reading the book The Narcissistic Family could help you gain clarity on this subject; you may find the difference between covert and overt narcissistic family dynamics interesting. The book Strangers to Ourselves might also be of interest to you. Even though parents who want a good relationship with their children have the best intentions, it doesn't mean necessarily that they're taking the right approach, especially considering that we're mostly unaware of our behavior and how it affects others.

Oxajil,

Yes, this is pretty much exactly what I was saying in this thread. Since everyone is wounded and programmed, all that wounding and programming is indeed passed on despite the best intentions.

So why the "lecturing mode"? Do you feel that you need to win the argument by showing off that you know "more"? I find it interesting that what could very well be a narcissistic trait came up when talking about other people's narcissistic traits.

 

[Gaby]

So why the "lecturing mode"? Do you feel that you need to win the argument by showing off that you know "more"? I find it interesting that what could very well be a narcissistic trait came up when talking about other people's narcissistic traits.

I don't see "lecturing", but helpfulness. The beauty of this network is that stuff gets repeated in several different ways according to each member's experience, style, etc. Some people might understand a specific argument better, others not.

Feeling sensitive for some reason?

 

[axj]

So why the "lecturing mode"? Do you feel that you need to win the argument by showing off that you know "more"? I find it interesting that what could very well be a narcissistic trait came up when talking about other people's narcissistic traits.

I don't see "lecturing", but helpfulness. The beauty of this network is that stuff gets repeated in several different ways according to each member's experience, style, etc. Some people might understand a specific argument better, others not.

Feeling sensitive for some reason?

No, I stand by my assessment. It looks like a narcissistic pattern hiding behind the mask of the "all-knowing helper".

What gives it away is that the "advice" simply contained the same things that were said by the person to whom the advice was directed. It really is quite clear if you look at it with brutal honesty.

 

[mkrnhr]

No, I stand by my assessment. It looks like a narcissistic pattern hiding behind the mask of the "all-knowing helper".

What gives it away is that the "advice" simply contained the same things that were said by the person to whom the advice was directed. It really is quite clear if you look at it with brutal honesty.

Interresting choice of words. You have the right to stand by your assessment of course. But where nobody sees "all-knowing helping" and "lecturing mode" but you could be an opportunity for you to learn about your hidden narcissistic wound and how system2 successfully rationalizes it for you. Another possibility is that you understood only superficially what Oxajil tried to convey to you, which of course is quite subtle if one is not deeply familiarized and experienced with the subject. When we respond respond emotionally rather than rationally, sometimes we miss the mark. Nothing out of the ordinary, just an opportunity to learn about ourselves and how we relate to others.

 

[Mr. Premise]

Axj, you're not seeing the exchange clearly it seems to me because how could Oxajil be trying to win an argument when she wasn't arguing with you? I think you may be arguing with yourself. Is there some reason you reacted to Arwenn saying she wanted to divorce her mother? And why react so harshly to someone who merely suggested you read a book you said you haven't read?

 

[gdpetti]

Sounds like that 'pity dictator' stuff (meant petty, but the slip is interesting)... one after the next to build up your defences... sort of like the planet Earth needs that solar activity to maintain its cosmic defenses.... too much at one time will take you down, so as Frank Sinatra put it: 'Nice and Easy Does It Every Time'. ;) like climbing a ladder, one rung at a time as you are ready, and until you see it coming and like Neo in 'The Matrix', you don't want nor need to go down that street again... you've been there, done that... and you learn non-attachment, even as the emotions get triggered, which are interesting to observe in yourself and see where they lead you... if anywhere other than simple acknowledgement... learning to play the game and not let the game play you... until that whole family thing gets boring and barely registers on your radar, though like those little Hobbitts, you do have to keep an eye on them, as it is the 'friendlies' that can make you unknowingly set down your armour just long enough to let the enemy in... wasn't that Gandalf problem in that first film of the Ring series? He trusted his 'family', his mentor and lived to regret it... he really didn't know him at all, or didn't bother keeping an eye on him.... let his shield down. What good is a shield if not always in position for protection? Didn't the C's mention the sleeping soldier on duty analogy? Your family, mother or whoever, seems to be acting like those alarm clocks... catalyst to keep your shield strong, in position and keep you awake... Pain, irritation etc is good for that. You seem to be in training.

 

[SMM]

I found myself thinking about this thread while washing the dishes. Arwenn, I think you chose wisely and have taken good steps by scheduling with P&H and seeing a psychologist.

From my experiences with a psychopathic mother, I think choosing to take responsibility for who you interact with and what you focus on - the Work and your children - is a great service, with an awareness of consequences if you choose to replay the same dynamics and what programs may be leading you back into the same 'trap'.

Puck's advice about boundaries struck a chord. Learnt habits affects our boundaries and vice versa because it affects our parameters of what's 'normal'. I'm reminded of System 1 and System 2 as discusses in Kahlemann's Thinking, Fast and Slow, as well as Redirect (and what I have read of DiSalvo) about narratives given to our experiences.

Boundaries have been on my mind recently and being succinct and firm with verbal affirmations and actions where and when necessary. Boundaries affect all relationships, from ourselves to everything we come into contact with so are major players in psychic hygeine.

My thinking went into the abstract with time and individuated souls in terms of boundaries, plus how toxic people seem unable or unwilling to come to grips with them.

For the sake of brevity, do you Arwenn think that falling ill is tied with adjusting to a new reality and seeing things differently, grappling with parts of you that are self- sabotaging (i.e. programs that kept you going back to the well or in the past) to become more self-responsible?

Like Gandalf's transmutation perhaps?

At any rate, I understand where you are coming from. Keep us posted

So why the "lecturing mode"? Do you feel that you need to win the argument by showing off that you know "more"? I find it interesting that what could very well be a narcissistic trait came up when talking about other people's narcissistic traits.

I don't see "lecturing", but helpfulness. The beauty of this network is that stuff gets repeated in several different ways according to each member's experience, style, etc. Some people might understand a specific argument better, others not.

Feeling sensitive for some reason?

No, I stand by my assessment. It looks like a narcissistic pattern hiding behind the mask of the "all-knowing helper".

What gives it away is that the "advice" simply contained the same things that were said by the person to whom the advice was directed. It really is quite clear if you look at it with brutal honesty.

axj, is it possible that you may be projecting your own qualities onto Oxjail? She asked if you had read The Narcissistic Family and when you responded that you hadn't, she recommended its reading to better understand the dynamics discussed.

 

[Buddy]

So why the "lecturing mode"? Do you feel that you need to win the argument by showing off that you know "more"? I find it interesting that what could very well be a narcissistic trait came up when talking about other people's narcissistic traits.

I don't see any basis for concluding 'lecturing mode' in Oxajil's response. When Oxajil replied based on what you said in your post to Arwenn, all I saw was the addition of subtle distinctions or extra information that could be helpful to any reader. Even your immediate response to Oxajil contained what I thought could also be helpful detail to any reader.

The only thing I see in her reply that, based on my knowledge and experience, might feel like a 'trigger' for an accusation of "lecturing mode" is the implied suggestion that you might not have clarity on the issue, which I took to be acceptable to you since you had also said "I see what you mean."

Perhaps there was a mis-understanding about what you were wanting to convey with that phrase? I can see how that could happen.

I don't know why [narcissistic pattern hiding behind the mask of the "all-knowing helper"] had to be added to your assesment, though. It's been my experience that when I react to something someone says I have evaluated their words in the context of my experience. But then, I also occasionally have to evaluate their words from the context of their knowledge and experience, or what I think I know of it and any mutual experiences we might share.

I used to wish I could read minds, but now I thank DCM that I cannot. I don't mind the extra work of asking for clarifying feedback when I can remember to do it.

So, what do you think?

 

[Arwenn]

Axj this thread was started to gather information on psychic protection. I really did not ask for advice or mirroring in this thread, but you felt it necessary to chime in with your thoughts on energetic bonds between parents and children, & how it was imperative that I seek to gain balance in my relationship with my parents.

You wrote:

Regarding the relationship with parents, there seems to be some sort of energetic bond between parents and children. {this may or may not be true, but where is your data to back this statement up?}This has the effect that when one's relationship with the parents is out-of-balance, it brings us out-of-balance as well. {sez who? What are you basing this on?} So I'm not sure if 'divorcing' your mother really works, Arwen. {I personally think this is the crux of the matter for you, IMO}

You will remain connected on a deep level {how can you know this?}, so the best thing to do is to find some kind - any kind of way to heal your relationship with her to some degree.{this shows me that you really don't understand characteropaths, because sometimes the best way to heal, is to walk away} I think it helps to try to establish more of adult-to-adult relationship with parents, instead of trying to get them to be the 'nurturing parent' that they may simply be unable to be.{this is why Oxajil recommended reading the book, your recommendation is totally counter-intuitive to what psychologists are recommending} And of course, always watch out for programs and emotional charges as a lot of that stuff was (unknowingly) created in childhood by our parents.

I get the feeling that you hadn't read the thread on my mother (where I had in fact asked for advice), and that you really didn't know the circumstances surrounding my situation. I also get the feeling that you were triggered by my mentioning that I had 'broken-up' with my mother, and in fact it was this trigger that had you writing what you did. Does it go against your grain? What sort of relationship do you have with your family, that the idea of a break-up seems so reprehensible to you?

I don't see narcissism in Oxajil's reply, just a desire to point out some truths. I do think you are out of your depth on this topic and perhaps it's best if you catch up on the suggested reading before chiming in again. I did you the honor and courtesy of really processing your post before replying, and I suggest you do likewise with what has been suggested for you.

 

[Arwenn]

I found myself thinking about this thread while washing the dishes. Arwenn, I think you chose wisely and have taken good steps by scheduling with P&H and seeing a psychologist.

From my experiences with a psychopathic mother, I think choosing to take responsibility for who you interact with and what you focus on - the Work and your children - is a great service, with an awareness of consequences if you choose to replay the same dynamics and what programs may be leading you back into the same 'trap'.

Puck's advice about boundaries struck a chord. Learnt habits affects our boundaries and vice versa because it affects our parameters of what's 'normal'. I'm reminded of System 1 and System 2 as discusses in Kahlemann's Thinking, Fast and Slow, as well as Redirect (and what I have read of DiSalvo) about narratives given to our experiences.

Boundaries have been on my mind recently and being succinct and firm with verbal affirmations and actions where and when necessary. Boundaries affect all relationships, from ourselves to everything we come into contact with so are major players in psychic hygeine.

My thinking went into the abstract with time and individuated souls in terms of boundaries, plus how toxic people seem unable or unwilling to come to grips with them.

For the sake of brevity, do you Arwenn think that falling ill is tied with adjusting to a new reality and seeing things differently, grappling with parts of you that are self- sabotaging (i.e. programs that kept you going back to the well or in the past) to become more self-responsible?

Like Gandalf's transmutation perhaps?

At any rate, I understand where you are coming from. Keep us posted

Hi SMM, and thank you for your input. I have spent much time thinking about my family's dynamic, and as I said earlier, my decision was not made lightly. After everything that has transpired recently, I made the conscious decision not to be food for these people. And to clarify, my mother is not a psychopath-she has dependent personality disorder & is currently living life by being provided for by her other two narcissistic offspring. Hugs to you for having to deal with your psychopathic mother though

With regards to what you had said about falling ill in response to adjusting to a new reality-this has been been a slow process over time, so no, I don't attribute it to that. What I felt on Thursday was really quite something else, and what got me starting this thread.

For all I know, rather than a psychic attack, I may have had an attachment glob onto me on Thursday, when I was feeling particularly hurt. From Laura's Knowledge & Being videos about spirit attachments and psychology/mental states, that could have been it. All the more reason to look forward to my session with P&H.
:)

 

[Mr. Premise]

That's good timing that you have an SRT session coming up. My wife cut off all contact with her father 30 years ago and she told me that that's a big reason she has healed more than her siblings from their childhood.

 

[Cyre2067]

I get the feeling that you hadn't read the thread on my mother (where I had in fact asked for advice), and that you really didn't know the circumstances surrounding my situation. I also get the feeling that you were triggered by my mentioning that I had 'broken-up' with my mother, and in fact it was this trigger that had you writing what you did. Does it go against your grain? What sort of relationship do you have with your family, that the idea of a break-up seems so reprehensible to you?

I don't see narcissism in Oxajil's reply, just a desire to point out some truths. I do think you are out of your depth on this topic and perhaps it's best if you catch up on the suggested reading before chiming in again. I did you the honor and courtesy of really processing your post before replying, and I suggest you do likewise with what has been suggested for you.

Agreed. It seemed to me like Oxajil was just trying to be helpful. Not sure why Axj felt threatened, but perhaps he was a bit insecure. Internet forums can be intimidating, especially when there's a library of reading suggested. Take your time reading Axj, learning is fun.