Psychic Self-defense, psychic protection

[axj]

What is tiresome is your hairsplitting and deflection.

So asking for specific data is hairsplitting and deflection?

If you had read the material you were advised to read you would know that what we are talking about here is not "usually." We're talking specifically about those cases where you cannot have an adult-to-adult relationship.

No, we were talking about "usually":

Unfortunately, as the referenced text demonstrates quite effectively, parents ARE usually the "poisoned well". How could it be otherwise in a society created and run by psychopaths?

The almost inevitable childhood wounding and programming - yes, in this respect all parents are a poisoned well. However, as adults it is my experience that it is not usually a case of "going back to the poisoned well" to have a working adult-to-adult relationship with one's parents.

 

[Mr. Premise]

What is tiresome is your hairsplitting and deflection.

So asking for specific data is hairsplitting and deflection?

No, but what you're doing is.

If you had read the material you were advised to read you would know that what we are talking about here is not "usually." We're talking specifically about those cases where you cannot have an adult-to-adult relationship.

No, we were talking about "usually":

Unfortunately, as the referenced text demonstrates quite effectively, parents ARE usually the "poisoned well". How could it be otherwise in a society created and run by psychopaths?

The almost inevitable childhood wounding and programming - yes, in this respect all parents are a poisoned well. However, as adults it is my experience that it is not usually a case of "going back to the poisoned well" to have a working adult-to-adult relationship with one's parents.

No we weren't talking about "usually." You were. We were talking about Arwenn's situation which is not "usual."

 

[Renaissance]

Without pointing out what particular 'strong beliefs' you see in what I said, the above is just a general statement with no data to back it up. I hope you see that.

Data has been provided. You've taken the conversation off in your own direction. That's been shown multiple times by multiple people in this thread. It seems you're so caught up in what you think that you can't even acknowledge the existence of anything else, at least in this thread.

 

[Laura]

Axj, the important elements in the responses to you are:

1) the suggestion that you could read a certain book which would dramatically expand your knowledge awareness of human family dynamics, i.e. "The Narcissistic Family."

2) my remark: "Much of Gurdjieff's work has amazing similarities to some of the latest cognitive science and represents a possible nexus between the material and the mystical."

Our approach to spiritual development/mysticism is described by Ark in the snip you quoted: "do not believe anything. Check everything, check and re-check, and even if it all seems alright, still keep doubts in your mind."

That is why we not only follow certain spiritual lines, but parallel lines in science, i.e. cognitive psychology. And it is in cognitive psychology that we have found some of the most fascinating material that aligns almost perfectly with the ideas of Gurdjieff and the ancient Stoics, not to mention the fact that we have been given many clues along this line via our mystical experimentation, i.e. Cassiopaea.

The problematical point in this discussion was when you came up with the idea that Arwenn should "heal the parental relationship" and suggestions circling around that. The response to that was: "Read 'The Narcissistic Family' - the idea being that there are family relationships that CANNOT be 'healed' and SHOULD NOT be attempted. You immediately dug in your heels, accused the one suggesting that of some kind of ego issue. It was not that, it was simply a suggestion that there are situations where no "healing of a relationship" is possible and the best one can do is heal themselves and avoid re-poisoning and that it seems clear that this is one of those situations so your suggestions were not just unhelpful, they may actually have been harmful, loading unnecessary guilt on the individual for being unable to heal what could not be healed.

In the process of trying to communicate this simple fact to you, as I said, you dug in and have continued to insist on being right, nitpicking, cherry-picking, etc. I pointed out that this forum has existed for some time, we have mods and ambassadors who have "trained in the school", so to say, and DO HAVE A CLUE about how we approach things here. You don't, as I just pointed out. You could do more damage than you know insisting that things can be "healed" when they cannot. That is one of the worst parts of so-called "spiritual paths" that are dominated by New Age sewage, as we call it. Assuming that you can do at this level what is not possible, what is only possible at other levels, is not helpful. You were NOT being helpful. This was gently pointed out. But you appear to have some sort of "right man syndrome", that is, you cannot accept that you can be wrong and seek to salvage "rightness". This is fairly common. We see it a lot. There is nothing you have said or done in this thread that we haven't seen a hundred times or more, if we've seen it once. We've also all DONE it a time or two as well and we know it is a natural response of the cognitive brain in response to the discomfort of the adaptive unconscious. That is, just about everybody here can see what you are doing, knows why you are doing it, have been through the processes of getting over doing that themselves, and we are basically wanting to see if there is something inside you that wants to grow enough to get over it.

Is there?

 

[aragorn]

Let me add that the other school I am with is also based on Guridjieff's and Castaneda's teachings, so there is not much of a difference there. The big difference and why keep coming back to this forum is that my other school focuses on spiritual self-development and does not analyze the world situation as much. Especially the spread of the information about psychopaths is what I consider to be vital.

Just adding my two cents here. After carefully reading this and the other thread started by Arwenn, it's quite obvious that you haven't applied these teachings to yourself. One of the basic ideas both teachings is working on your self importance, and understanding that the way you see yourself isn't accurate. To see your true self, you need feedback from others. But you don't seem to be taking any of the feedback on board, instead project A LOT and nitpick because you need to be right. Perhaps this would be a good moment to start questioning yourself?

 

[axj]

Laura, as I said, I have been on and off here since the early 2000's so I am well aware how this place works, the system of trusting the feedback of the long-time members, and so on. I left the first time when I realized that the spiritual self-growth part of this group was not the best fit for me. By that I do not mean that it doesn't work here - it certainly does.

Then I joined again due to the importance of things like exposing psychopaths and other lies we see around us.

I can see now that there may be some information in that book that shows how a specific situation like Arwenn's may indeed be unsolvable, so that breaking off contact for good may be the best option. However, I only suggested to stay open towards either possibility - that there may be a way to change the relationship dynamics or not. I don't see anything damaging or guilt-inducing in that.

Plus, the aspect of energy bonds between parents and children is something that is highly relevant in this case, but was fought with hand and feet or ignored by most people here. Of course, you only have my word for it so far, but I think it deserves to be treated as at least a possible 'working hypothesis' instead of being dismissed outright. That is the sort of "knee-jerk skepticism" that you actually talked about before.

Two things you and Aragorn are probably right on:

There is still some of that 'right person' pattern and some self-importance involved on my part here. I am aware of these patterns and will continue working on dismantling them. However, as can be seen with many who contributed in this thread, it is difficult not to have any patterns at all come up, especially when faced with things like loaded questions or general statements with no data to back it up.

So still having patterns is unfortunately 'normal' for everyone, but does not in itself invalidate what was said by anyone.

Just adding my two cents here. After carefully reading this and the other thread started by Arwenn, it's quite obvious that you haven't applied these teachings to yourself. One of the basic ideas both teachings is working on your self importance, and understanding that the way you see yourself isn't accurate. To see your true self, you need feedback from others. But you don't seem to be taking any of the feedback on board, instead project A LOT and nitpick because you need to be right. Perhaps this would be a good moment to start questioning yourself?

Aragorn, the presence of some patterns does not mean that the teachings have not been applied. As you are probably aware, it takes a very long time to become truly pattern-free. So again, I see an over-generalization here.

Furthermore, you assume that I do not receive feedback on matters of self-growth from other places - the school that I mentioned. The feedback in this thread was to a large degree non-specific with a lot of general statements like "you have a gap of knowledge" or "you have many beliefs" and the refusal or inability to back it up with specific data.

I appreciate your and Laura's specific feedback.

 

[Laura]

Plus, the aspect of energy bonds between parents and children is something that is highly relevant in this case, but was fought with hand and feet or ignored by most people here. Of course, you only have my word for it so far, but I think it deserves to be treated as at least a possible 'working hypothesis' instead of being dismissed outright. That is the sort of "knee-jerk skepticism" that you actually talked about before.

Yes, parent-child genetic bonds can be strong but I think most here understand after some past discussions that this is sometimes the only basis. As the Cs told one individual who was very puzzled because he felt that he just didn't fit with his family and the relationship was fraught with pain and misunderstanding, people sometimes take the best genetic options they can get for incarnation. That is due to the fact that certain genetics are needed for frequency matching with soul potentials. Very often, exploring past life relationships can explain things, even help with lessening the genetic attachment.

Do read "TNF". If you can't get a copy, PM me, and I'll email it to you.

 

[aragorn]

axj, TNF is available also on Kindle. It's a bit pricey, but could be worth it if you want to access it quickly.

The Narcissistic Family: Diagnosis and Treatment by Stephanie Donaldson-Pressman
Link: http://amzn.com/B0028N60UQ

And yes, being completely 'pattern-free' is probably impossible for most of us during this lifetime, but that's what interactions like this is all about - chopping away those reactive programs, bit by bit, by taking into serious consideration what others are saying and observing. Sometimes we succeed in 'taking it in', and sometimes not. But it gets easier for every time you succeed. However, I've seen on this forum examples of how some subject, some belief, can be such a sacred cow that it can not be overcome by the individual. That then becomes a watershed moment, that will allow the predator to win, totally. So, I hope you're being vigilant ;)

 

[Minas Tirith]

I am glad that you are resolving the situation here, but axj, what you wrote here is not quite so:

I can see now that there may be some information in that book that shows how a specific situation like Arwenn's may indeed be unsolvable, so that breaking off contact for good may be the best option. However, I only suggested to stay open towards either possibility - that there may be a way to change the relationship dynamics or not. I don't see anything damaging or guilt-inducing in that.

What you wrote in your initial post was:

Regarding the relationship with parents, there seems to be some sort of energetic bond between parents and children. This has the effect that when one's relationship with the parents is out-of-balance, it brings us out-of-balance as well. So I'm not sure if 'divorcing' your mother really works, Arwen.

You will remain connected on a deep level, so the best thing to do is to find some kind - any kind of way to heal your relationship with her to some degree. I think it helps to try to establish more of adult-to-adult relationship with parents, instead of trying to get them to be the 'nurturing parent' that they may simply be unable to be. And of course, always watch out for programs and emotional charges as a lot of that stuff was (unknowingly) created in childhood by our parents.

This is not suggesting to stay open towards either possibility, it is a statement specifically directed towards Arwenns situation and I think this is why so many others chimed in here.

M.T.

 

[axj]

Okay, that's true. That first post was not as balanced as the later ones.

I'll read TNF too.

 

[lilyalic]

When I'm feeling attacked it usually takes a few days for the 'physical illness' to come through, I definitely need to have an emotional breakdown if anything like that happens (especially with the Mother) ... After crying, or meditating I usually read, this read is usually In Search for the Miraculous.

Reading more and gaining more knowledge, and going on walks (Realising that there's SO much "time") helps a lot personally.

I hope you strengthen from this :)

Kind Regards

 

[Medulin]

Gurdjieff talked about 'imagination' being a misuse of a useful function - Visualization. To protect yourself from energetic assaults, you have to create an energetic barrier (re: the psyche). Visualization is key to this. Laura briefly touched upon this concept of visualization with the story about aquiring the chateau - charging the crystal. Bring form to the formless.

Kris

Is this similar to the concept of ''visualization of aura''?

 

[RflctnOfU]

Gurdjieff talked about 'imagination' being a misuse of a useful function - Visualization. To protect yourself from energetic assaults, you have to create an energetic barrier (re: the psyche). Visualization is key to this. Laura briefly touched upon this concept of visualization with the story about aquiring the chateau - charging the crystal. Bring form to the formless.

Kris

Is this similar to the concept of ''visualization of aura''?

Visualization of whose aura? And to what end?

Kris

 

[Medulin]

Visualisation of your own aura is a shielding technique described in
''How to Defend Yourself Against Alien Abduction '' by Ann Druffel

I had several psychic attacks after trying this technique, that was 2 years ago,
so I stopped after a month or two of trying it.

Trying too hard can give you opposite results, as in my case.

 

[RflctnOfU]

Visualisation of your own aura is a shielding technique described in
''How to Defend Yourself Against Alien Abduction '' by Ann Druffel

I had several psychic attacks after trying this technique, that was 2 years ago,
so I stopped after a month or two of trying it.

Trying too hard can give you opposite results, as in my case.

Would you describe the technique? It might not be that you tried too hard, but possibly a case of the 'blind leading blind'.

Kris