Questions
Vivitskaia said:
I hope to get better at using the quote function.
It's easy. You just use brackets -> [ and ] to enclose the word "quote" (without quotation marks) at the beginning of what you wish to quote and to close the quote, use the word "quote" with a "/" in front of it. You can put quotes inside quotes inside quotes this way if you make sure that every start of a quote has a close quote expression.
Vivitskaia said:
I have studied Beelzebub's Tales and orally transmitted Work practices since 1993. The more I try to Work on myself, the more I realise I am a beginner. Ever beginning afresh. And I hope to exchange (understanding) from where I am. I don't want to have to speak from false modesty. Work ideas free us from precisely these things, when we apply them to ourselves.
I'm not sure that beginning with Beelzebub's Tales is the place to begin. That is a text that can only be understood by those who have achieved a certain level of BEing in the context of the general Work of a group as described by Gurdjieff and as documented by Ouspensky. Beelzebub is written for those who already know something.
As for "orally transmitted work practices", we don't hold much stock in those because it is pretty clear that the students of Gurdjieff - most of whom claim to have some "orally transmitted work practices" - didn't get it. That is, in fact, why Gurdjieff wrote Beelzebub.
Vivitskaia said:
Do you Work on being, as described by Gurdjieff and Ouspensky? I sincerely would like to know. [...] I don't think the forum rules answer it.
The forum rules address that directly. I am having a difficult time understanding how you could read them and conclude that they do not answer the question.
Vivitskaia said:
The question about Kundabuffer can be answered from within, by Work on being. By being I mean my manifestations as a whole, my common presence, what I am over a lifespan, not just a moment in time. It is possible to connect with this totality and with eternity, as is symbolised in the cross.
It strikes me that you are attempting to do calculus when you have not yet learned to count from 1 to 10.
Vivitskaia said:
By Movements I mean Gurdjieff sacred dances. By sittings I mean inner exercises (connected with breathing, Work on emotions, instinctive functioning, sensation, I AM, third eye, Buddha, Lama, Mohammed, Christ, Moses, chakras and others) as handed down by Gurdjieff.
See comment above. There are a lot of useless things claimed to be handed down by Gurdjieff as a "general way to do things" that were originally devised at a specific time, in a specific place, for a specific purpose and sometimes even for a specific individual, that have no usefulness in a general way. It strikes me that you (and others, perhaps those who taught you) have done exactly what Gurdjieff predicted:
Gurdjieff in ISOTM said:
"The work itself of schools of the fourth way can have very many forms and many meanings. In the midst of the ordinary conditions of life the only chance a man has of finding a 'way' is in the possibility of meeting with the beginning of work of this kind. But the chance of meeting with such work as well as the possibility of profiting by this chance depends upon many circumstances and conditions.
"The quicker a man grasps the aim of the work which is being executed, the quicker can he become useful to it and the more will he be able to get from it for himself.
"But no matter what the fundamental aim of the work is, the schools continue to exist only while this work is going on. When the work is done the schools close. The people who began the work leave the stage.
Those who have learned from them what was possible to learn and have reached the possibility of continuing on the way independently begin in one form or another their own personal work.
"But it happens sometimes that when the school closes a number of people are left who were round about the work, who saw the outward aspect of it, and saw the whole of the work in this outward aspect.
"Having no doubts whatever of themselves or in the correctness of their conclusions and understanding they decide to continue the work. To continue this work they form new schools, teach people what they have themselves learned, and give them the same promises that they themselves received. All this naturally can only be outward imitation.
You have to understand, Gurdjieff's work had a definite purpose that failed. His school closed, he died, and all that was left were people who did not understand. This point is made clear by Gurdjieff himself in his introduction to his "All and Everything" series of writings which includes Beelzebub.
The Cassiopaean Experiment is a Fourth Way Work that began in 1994 and is ongoing at present. It picks up Gurdjieff's work where he left it after realizing that it was not yet time, and that his major contribution was to provide a map so that the next school that emerged after him could travel farther and avoid many errors by learning from his mistakes.
Vivitskaia said:
I don't know what you who are interested in Gurdjieff's ideas on this forum know already. I am sorry if I come across as a know-it-all. It is necessary to realise my nothingness and at the same time to not falsely undervalue what I have got. It is balancing, on the straight and narrow, and not falling down into the ditch on either side.
You can easily learn what we "know already" by reading posts in the forum itself, by reading the material on the Cassiopaean website, by observing the other activities we engage in to further the aims of the "school" etc.
This forum - The Work - is full of threads about different aspects of the Work that are primary for anyone who may, eventually, seek to read and comprehend Beelzebub.
Because this group has experienced many of the same dynamics of experience that Gurdjieff experienced, most particularly in terms of working with people (which most definitely necessitates working on the self!), it is easier for us to "see" what Gurdjieff meant when he said this or that. There are many things in ISOTM that made no real impact on me until after I had spent some years working with people directly. So, it is only in following the model that Gurdjieff established, that one begins to get a "taste" of what was inside Gurdjieff himself.
This, of course, is based on the principles of external considering as described by Gurdjieff:
Gurdjieff in ISOTM said:
External considering is based upon an entirely different relationship towards people than internal considering. It is adaptation towards people, to their understanding, to their requirements. By considering externally a man does that which makes life easy for other people and for himself. External considering requires a knowledge of men, an understanding of their tastes, habits, and prejudices. At the same time external considering requires a great power over oneself, a great control over oneself. [...]
But if a man really remembers himself he understands that another man is a machine just as he is himself. And then he will enter into his position, he will put himself in his place, and he will be really able to understand and feel what another man thinks and feels. If he can do this his work becomes easier for him. But if he approaches a man with his own requirements nothing except new internal considering can ever be obtained from it.
Right external considering is very important in the work. It often happens that people who understand very well the necessity of external considering in life do not understand the necessity of external considering in the work; they decide that just because they are in the work they have the right not to consider. Whereas in reality, in the work, that is, for a man's own successful work, ten times more external considering is necessary than in life, because only external considering on his part shows his valuation of the work and his understanding of the work; and success in the work is always proportional to the valuation and understanding of it. Remember that work cannot begin and cannot proceed on a level lower than that of the obyvatel, that is, on a level lower than ordinary life. This is a very important principle which, for some reason or other, is very easily forgotten.
So many people forget themselves when studying the work of Gurdjieff - they do not "externally consider" him, they do not enter into Gurdjieff's position in an attempt to understand what he thought and felt. Instead, they all - including the so-called "teachers" in Gurdjieff type work - approach the entire thing with their own requirements.
I hope that this explains a few things.
