Questions about Beelzebub's Tales

[Vivitskaia]

Questions

I like the dynamic of the people I see in this forum, it is one of serious research and commitment to taking responsibility for one's position in the universe.

Etymology, philology and linguistics are of tremendous help in understanding how my thinking patterns have been established, and Gurdjieff left us with a great many neologisms so that we too may have the opportunity to become true rather than sorry scientists.

It is possible to verify a great many things within myself. "As above, so below".

Auto means 'self' in ancient Greek. Ego means 'self' in Latin. Crat means 'ruler', 'power' in ancient Greek.

Trogo means 'eat' in ancient Greek. Fagos means 'glutton' in acient Greek. Giros means 'greed' in ancient Greek. [Any input on etymological research is must appreciated]

Eating the I. Everything is food for something else.

In this way I can circumvent Heropass, coat higher being-bodies and become immortal within the next cosmos. This I can verify for myself.

As a result of the insertion of 'trogo', God, the Absolute, becomes dependent on forces other than itself. This means that in a world, level, such as ours, subject to 48 laws, His Endlessness does not influence events directly. Still, it is possible for the Absolute to become self-aware through me.

How conscious are the cells comprising my body? They serve the purpose of maintaining my organism so that I can transform substances in accordance with the Will of God. If they were all to become conscious and wish to fulfil their highest individual destiny, my body would become disorganised, what I call 'I' would die. So they must be kept in ignorance in order that they can serve my Aim, which is at a higher level, in a higher cosmos, than that of my cells. Individual cells have the potential to become consicous, because in the great scheme of my body, individual cells do not matter. At the same time, my real I wishes for nothing more than to become self-consious.

Egyptian creation myth: Tum beheld himself and created Atum. In the beginning was One, a circle. It becomes aware of itself and creates another circle. In the intersection of two circles is the vesica pisces, from which all number spring. From which Christ springs. From which a child is born.

What is pertinent to me is: can I make food out of the impressions that reach me? Can I transform them into finer substances within my own chemical factory? In this way, I can coat higher being bodies that can survive the death of the planetary body and enable me to continue my ascent up the Ray of Creation.

Nature is the result of the descending Ray of Creation. I serve Nature by my sleeping existence and so do the Will of God. Consciousness, awakening, is the result of ascending up the Ray of Creation, back towards the Absolute. I serve Consciousness by becoming self-aware and coating higher being-bodies and so do the Will of God.

I do the Will of God whether I am a sleeping (wo)man or a Conscious (Wo)Man. And the Way is "a way against Nature, against God."

Travelling to distant places and studying what other people have learned is certainly necessary and valuable, as one of the layers of meaning in 'Meetings With Remarkable men' shows. I absolutely agree that it is I that has to become the true scientist. It is not up to anyone else. And I am perfectly capable of it - as of course are you, and anyone. If one man has done it, any man can do it.

Accumulation of knowledge is important, and it must go hand-in-hand with Work on being. Otherwise sex energy, SI 12, is used not for the building of higher being-bodies, but for the accumulation of knowledge. I can recognise this by a certain intensity, vehemence, in my accumulation of knowledge. My being needs to catch up.

Knowledge on its own can only take me so far. I need to Work on my State. When I am in certain states I am able to receive help from higher forces. I know this for myself, from direct experience. This is how I understand verification. When I know, for myself, that something is so, it becomes gnosis. Then symbols can begin to speak to me, for they speak of higher states, which I can now re-cognise.

Like the 'Virgin of the Sign' icon, the 'Noli Me Tangere' icon, the Ankh, the Sphinx and many others.

Jesus said "if you want to know the future, dance".

How do you understand Active Mentation?

I so would like this exchange to lose its adversarial element. What can I do to contribute to this happening?

I truly wish you well and hope to make a connection with you. Perhaps we can help each other on the Way without having to compromise on staying true to our individual inner voice?

Vivitskaia

 

[Peam]

Questions

Jesus said "if you want to know the future, dance".

Vivitskaia, could you please quote the chapter and verse in the bible where Jesus said this.
Thanks.

 

[Tigersoap]

Questions

I so would like this exchange to lose its adversarial element. What can I do to contribute to this happening?

I truly wish you well and hope to make a connection with you. Perhaps we can help each other on the Way without having to compromise on staying true to our individual inner voice?

Hi Vivitskaia,

It's just my point of view concerning this, so I may be not seeing the whole picture, but answering by talking with only "Gurdjieff" words and concepts is a bit off putting for me.
Not that I think that it is not very important that we understand each other when speaking about the work but here it seems to be just some kind of showing off that does not really help me to understand what you really want to discuss about.
Or maybe there is not really a discussion going on but just you "Vivitskaia" talking to yourself.
That's what I get from your posts so far.

 

[SeekinTruth]

Questions

I’m posting in the sincere hope of sharing some personal understanding and experiences. I’m relatively new to the Work, just a couple of years, but more seriously and intensely only for the last year to year and a half. Be that as it may, hopefully I’ll be adding more signal than noise overall.

To begin with, the "questions" raised about Beelzebub’s Tales to His Grandson at the beginning of this thread, I’ve only read it once so far, and my level of understanding is not enough to really comment with anything very substantive (although I had read many excerpts in different contexts and summaries, analyses etc. on these sites and forums before having read it which helped enormously). However, my comments will be more about the impressions left by Vivitskaia on the other forum members (including myself).

There is no offense meant to you, Vivitskaia, and some of what I will try to articulate is not necessarily addressed to you only, but to help anyone who might read it, but especially others who are relatively new to this forum, sites, and/or the Work (although people who have been involved longer may also get something from it, you never know). Having said this, it does not mean YOU can’t get something useful and helpful out of it.

Christx11, anart, ScioAgapeOmnis, Ark, Laura, Tigersoap, and others have tried to point many things out to you, Vivitskaia, but you just keep coming back with variations of your own tendency to talk at the forum (and this is strange in itself after so many have addressed you and things you wrote specifically, you just keep addressing the forum in a general way and do not respond to anyone directly, while consistently claiming and pleading to want to "exchange" and "make connection with you" again without saying specifically who you mean by "you"). As has been mentioned you seem to be showing off mostly. There does seem to be quite a bit of identifying in your "exchanges" with your own idea of how long you’ve been "in the Work", how advanced you are, how much you know, etc. all the while denying this and making not-very-sincere admissions about how your understanding is not that advanced, you feel like a beginner etc. Still there seems to be a very strong identification with being involved with "Gurdjieff groups" having read and experienced so much material regarding the 4th Way and so on and so forth, while alternating with contradictory and not very convincing admissions and insincere self deprecations; you really have some not very well hidden ways of avoiding these issues raised to point all of this out to you.

You are almost showing a form of dissociation (although it may not be exactly what’s going on, but it is very similar to it including not addressing anyone directly). These dissociation-like "symptoms" in your conversations (seemingly with yourself) shows that all of the high sounding Work ideas and principles are not properly assimilated by you and are not by any means being applied by you. You are just mechanically repeating much of these presumably to impress and show off. Even someone as new to the Work as I am is familiar with most of what you’ve written but your real grasp and understanding of it seems to be as lacking as it is for me, maybe even more so. Again no offense to you, Vivitskaia, personally, but this is the impression you have left. And don’t forget that all of the things you have displayed are not that unusual. We all have these elements and aspects in different parts of ourselves, me included (that is why I am writing this). Only your particular pattern and form is unique.

However, all of this being pointed out to you is a real opportunity to apply all of the Work ideas practically and sincerely instead of theoretically and just mechanically repeated / recited. One thing I want to repeat and emphasize is that you seem to be strongly identified with the fact that you’ve been "involved in the Work" for about 15 years. Also, as has been pointed out by others, you seem to lack a basic level of external considering, which is vital in the Work. Furthermore, you seem to have come to this forum with your own requirements which is also related to identifying and internal considering / lack of external considering.

Do you Work on being, as described by Gurdjieff and Ouspensky? I sincerely would like to know. […] I don’t think the forum rules answer it.

The forum rules address that directly. I am having a difficult time understanding how you could read them and conclude that they do not answer the question.

Again, this was after SAO asked to whom the above question was addressed, and if to the forum as a whole, the forum rules answer this question. But you seem to be carried away completely with your identification and requirements and just continue in this way without taking any notice whatsoever. Again we all do this to varying extents and in slightly different ways in different situations. But the whole point is that when this is pointed out to you, which is one of the main reasons for these forums – particularly The Work forum – you just continue as if nothing was said about these things at all.

This is both addressed to you, Vivitskaia, and anyone that may read this and hopefully get some useful insights. The SOTT network / project and all the related websites and forums are really a very unique, high value, and special opportunity to LEARN a ton, and I mean a TON of things (especially for those who are purportedly interested in the Work / 4th Way) and be able to apply this knowledge in much less time than if any one person tried to do the same on their own without this network and all the material available on these sites. The SOTT network has lots of experience working as a group to separate the wheat from the chaff, so to speak, and get to the bottom of many important issues concerning esoteric knowledge, the state of our world and ourselves etc. Also the SOTT group has done much work in sorting out imitation Fourth Way teachings and groups from genuine, authentic ones.

It all comes down to reading as much of the material on these sites and forums as possible, catching up / getting up to speed, and deciding what you can get from and also contribute to this project. It should be clear that there are different lines in the Work, and through the SOTT and all the resources available here, we can make great strides in all lines of the Work – work on ourselves, work with others, and being useful to this Work in general. If you have done the "footwork", your "homework," and are convinced that this is an authentic Fourth Way school, then you can make a choice to be part of it, to make as much valuable contribution to this Work as you are capable of, from your own level and sincerity without sparing yourself. SOTT provides unique opportunities to make huge progress for anyone truly interested in learning, research, and sharing knowledge, whether committing completely to the Work, or not.

I don't know what you who are interested in Gurdjieff's ideas on this forum know already. I am sorry if I come across as a know-it-all. It is necessary to realise my nothingness and at the same time to not falsely undervalue what I have got. It is balancing, on the straight and narrow, and not falling down into the ditch on either side.

You can easily learn what we "know already" by reading posts in the forum itself, by reading the material on the Cassiopaean website, by observing the other activities we engage in to further the aims of the "school" etc.

Exactly. This is a golden opportunity for anyone who wants to sincerely work and learn. Nobody here (I mean the Administrators and Moderators at least) claims to know more than they really do, but the fact is they know a great deal, a great deal more than I do, and most people who come to SOTT; of course there are narrow fields / areas of knowledge that I or anyone else may have relatively more knowledge in than for instance an Administrator, but so what. The whole point is how much knowledge can we apply in important matters and circumstances and how much knowledge can we properly connect to each other and relate to other fields, etc. The attentive reader will notice that no final conclusions are drawn here. In ANY matter, no matter how much research has been done, SOTT is always open to new data, and if truly NEW data is presented, SOTT is willing to revise / adjust their working hypothesis.

If you ask me what is, for instance, entropy or gravitation, I will answer you what I know and then admit: unfortunately I do not understand these concepts completely myself, I have problem here and there. I will not send you to textbooks or to "work on being". And I will make it clear that you are welcome to ask more...

I can't speak for other people, but as for me I know next next to nothing. Just want to learn. And how does this process of learning proceed?

You see Ark’s comments come across totally sincere. Now if Ark says he knows next to nothing, well what is someone like me for instance supposed to think. I know and will freely admit that I know next to nothing, but my knowing next to nothing is much, MUCH less than Ark’s. First Ark is a world class scientist – a theoretical physicist and mathematician with a very high level of expertise in his specializations – and has been for quite a long time; he has even collaborated in developing a better defined, more refined and developed quantum theory called Event Enhanced Quantum Theory (which I of course do not understand pretty much at all). Additionally, he has been seriously studying complex scientific problems, esoteric / Fourth Way teachings, cosmology, etc. since before I was even born (and I’m 41 years old) judging from some of his journal entries from the 1960’s and other background that I’ve read. You see everything is relative. Ark may think he knows next to nothing and I may think I know next nothing, but surely there is still a great deal of difference between Ark’s overall knowledge and mine.

But the really important (and exciting thing) about what SOTT is really about is that whatever Ark knows, and whatever Laura knows (again if you become somewhat familiar with her work, research and writing, you will truly be in awe), and whatever you know, and whatever I know can be shared and increased exponentially here if the attitude and approach of those sharing is right – how it is meant or intended to be as part of SOTT’s goals. There may be others at this time, I don’t know, but I have spent quite a bit of time and energy "doing my homework" familiarizing myself with what SOTT is about, what they have done and what they are doing, and I am convinced that this is a TRUE Fourth Way Work, which I feel lucky to have found.

Of course, Vivitskaia, and anyone else, I am not trying to convince you of this. That is entirely up to you to be convinced or not. But AFTER you have done the research – "your homework" – with all that that entails regarding time, energy, and thought. But nothing valuable, nothing worthwhile can be gained or achieved without the investment of these anyway. So I have no interest or intention in persuading anyone of the value of SOTT if they do not already have some tendency to value what is offered here, if they are not going in a similar direction (not to say the same). SOTT / Cass. is not a "cult" as some have claimed. And again it is not for me to convince anyone of this. If you have an open mind and want to check out what SOTT is about, no one will be trying to persuade you (brainwash you as some claim) about anything against your will and cooperation. If you don’t like what SOTT is about and what it’s doing, if you disagree, you are welcome to leave and have nothing to do with SOTT. There’s a whole big world (and internet) out there.

But if you do suspect that there is something very valuable, unique, and special about what this group is doing, then you have to put your own conscious and sincere efforts to reap what is offered here in a commensurate way to the efforts of the Administrators as well as the group as a whole to have offered it. If you continue in this way, realizing what you are gaining, then at some point you will want to contribute all that you are capable of to the aims and goals of the group to help others and pay back for what you have gained, even if for a long time what you are capable of is not much.

As far as specifically Gurdjieff’s ideas and the Work go, for instance, Vivitskaia, where do you think you have reached in the Work? Have you reached the level of Man No. 4 or are you close? Speaking for myself, I’m not sure, but from what I can tell, I have not yet reached the level of Man No. 4, but I am much closer than I was a year ago. I can say with some certainty that my Magnetic Center has grown quite a bit in that time (though I still have a ways to go in growth and then development of Magnetic Center). Also my long term aim is to wake up; but the smaller aims before that entail reaching the level of Man No. 4, because that is the next right step to reach on the Way.

Having said all this, it becomes obvious that I have many problem "i’s," I am still not one but many, I still have TONS of work to do on myself and so have similar tendencies shown by Vivitskaia. But I sincerely try to observe these and stop myself from totally identifying with them and indulging in them without restraint.

This forum - The Work - is full of threads about different aspects of the Work that are primary for anyone who may, eventually, seek to read and comprehend Beelzebub.

Because this group has experienced many of the same dynamics of experience that Gurdjieff experienced, most particularly in terms of working with people (which most definitely necessitates working on the self!), it is easier for us to "see" what Gurdjieff meant when he said this or that. There are many things in ISOTM that made no real impact on me until after I had spent some years working with people directly. So, it is only in following the model that Gurdjieff established, that one begins to get a "taste" of what was inside Gurdjieff himself.

The really important thing to understand about the Fourth Way is that it is a map for esoteric, conscious evolution, but each individual’s journey is unique. As mentioned, much of what Gurdjieff said to his students was wrongly understood, details that were meant for a specific time and place, and even for a specific person, were taken and tried to be applied in a general way, leading to making something that was very useful in a specific context totally useless by attempting to apply it universally. The difference between Gurdjieff, and Ouspensky, Mouravieff, Castaneda and others (although they have all provided useful information, some of it that is unavailable from any other source) is that Gurdjieff LIVED the Work and the rest pretty much theorized about it. Gurdjieff was a master in that he had an uncanny ability to recognize people’s types, chief feature, etc., how to give specialized, personalized instructions and exercises, how to combine different people to work together to give just the right type and intensity of shocks and so on. But most of his students still did not make that much progress in the Work.

You have to understand, Gurdjieff's work had a definite purpose that failed. His school closed, he died, and all that was left were people who did not understand. This point is made clear by Gurdjieff himself in his introduction to his "All and Everything" series of writings which includes Beelzebub.

The Cassiopaean Experiment is a Fourth Way Work that began in 1994 and is ongoing at present. It picks up Gurdjieff's work where he left it after realizing that it was not yet time, and that his major contribution was to provide a map so that the next school that emerged after him could travel farther and avoid many errors by learning from his mistakes.

And so, Vivitskaia, and anyone else who has not yet "joined" to fully participate in this Work, you can choose to join this Work, after you have done some prerequisite reading, at the very least The Wave and Adventures With Cassiopaea, or you can decide to search elsewhere for this type of Work to participate in. The choice is yours, make an informed decision.

 

[Vivitskaia]

Questions

Vivitskaia, could you please quote the chapter and verse in the bible where Jesus said this.
Thanks.

Acts of John

The Hymn of the Lord
Which He Sang in Secret to the Holy Apostles, His Disciples

“The number Eight (Ogdoad) singeth praise with us.
Amen.
The number Twelve danceth on high.
Amen.
The Whole on high hath part in our dancing.
Amen.
Whoso danceth not, knoweth not what cometh to pass.
Amen.”
“Now answer thou unto my dancing.
Behold thyself in me who speak,
and seeing what I do,
keep silence about my mysteries.

Thou that dancest, perceive what I do,
for thine is this passion of the manhood, which I am about to suffer.”

The SOTT network / project and all the related websites and forums are really a very unique, high value, and special opportunity to LEARN a ton, and I mean a TON of things (especially for those who are purportedly interested in the Work / 4th Way) and be able to apply this knowledge in much less time than if any one person tried to do the same on their own without this network and all the material available on these sites.

While I can't instantly change the way I manifest to give less offence, I will continue to Work on external considering (the Work is always with me). If anyone would like to discuss understanding related to Beelzebub's Tales to His Grandson, I think (hope) that this forum provides a valuable opportunity to exchange.

How I manifest, in this forum, or in life, - in the present moment - reveals my being. In my understanding, no amount of pre-prepared words written by me or someone else can show Work on being.

 

[Laura]

Questions

The Acts of John are not part of the Biblical canon.

The Acts of John is a 2nd-century Christian collection of narratives and traditions, well described as a "library of materials" , inspired by the Gospel of John, long known in fragmentary form. The traditional author was said to be one Leucius Charinus, a companion of John, who was associated with several 2nd century Acts. As a description of acts attributed to one of the major apostles who had put their words down into the New Testament, together with the Acts of Paul it is considered one of the most significant of the apostolic Acts in the New Testament apocrypha. It was traditionally ascribed to Prochorus, one of the Seven Deacons discussed in Acts of the Apostles.

It contains two apocryphal journeys of John to Ephesus, filled with dramatic events, miracles such as the collapse of the Temple of Artemis just as John in the theater preaching to try to convert Artemis' followers, anecdotes and well-framed melodramatic speeches. It may have originated as a Christianized wonder tale, designed for an urbane Hellenic audience accustomed to such things as having one's portrait painted (the setting for one episode), living in that part of the province of Asia. It also contains the episode at the Last Supper of the Round Dance of the Cross initiated by Jesus, saying, "Before I am delivered to them, let us sing a hymn to the Father and so go to meet what lies before us". Directed to form a circle around him holding hands and dancing, the apostles cry "Amen" to the hymn of Jesus.

Embedded in the text is another hymn (sections 94 – 96), "which no doubt was once used as a liturgical song (with response) in some Johannine communities" (Davis). In the summer of 1916 Gustav Holst set it, in a version by G.R.S. Mead, as "The Hymn of Jesus" for two mixed choirs and a small orchestra (Trippett).

Though the Acts of John was condemned as heretical, a large fragment survives in Greek manuscripts of widely varying date. In two medieval Greek versions, the magical survival of John when put to tortures will be familiar to any reader of hagiography: "He was brought before Domitian, and made to drink poison, which did not hurt him: the dregs of it killed a criminal on whom it was tried: and John revived him; he also raised a girl who was slain by an unclean spirit." (James 1924, Introduction).

Most of its docetic imagery and overt gnostic teachings are concentrated in a few chapters (94-102 and 109), which may be interpolations, or they may simply reflect the diverse nature of the sources that were drawn upon to assemble this episodic collection, which falls in the genre of Romance.

The surviving Latin fragments, by contrast, seem to have been purged of unorthodox content, according to their translator M. R. James: the Latin fragments contain episodes now missing in the Greek. The Stichometry of Nicephorus gives its length as 2500 lines. An on-line translation [2] presents the confrontation of John and Domitian during Domitian's persecution of Christians, described as instigated by a letter of complaint from the Jews.

 

[Vivitskaia]

Questions

The Acts of John are not part of the Biblical canon.

Nor are the gnostic gospels, and they speak of a teaching closely resembling the Fourth Way. A conscious distinction had to be made to choose what to present for the benefit to the world and what to keep 'hermetically sealed'.

As I understand it, the rediscovery of the Book of Thoth that Edgar Cayce 'foresaw', the coming of the thousand-year Kingdom that Nostradamus 'foresaw', and the dawning of the New Age associated with the precession of the equinoxes moving away from Pisces (Christianity) and towards Aquarius, is connected with this kind of material becoming publically available for the first time. The Internet makes it possible for me, and anyone, to, in seconds, not only read the gnostic gospels but to compare different translations of them.

 

[ark]

Questions

The Acts of John are not part of the Biblical canon.

Nor are the gnostic gospels, and they speak of a teaching closely resembling the Fourth Way.

Well, the comment was:

Peam wrote:

Vivitskaia, could you please quote the chapter and verse in the bible where Jesus said this.
Thanks.

Peam wrote "the Bible". You quoted from outside of "the Bible".

Little, insignificant detail? Perhaps. But the devil may well be hiding in the details. Here, within this Forum, we are making an effort of paying attention to the details. Annoying, as it may seem, but, judging by our experience, useful attitude. Especially when it comes to "research" and preventing the propagation of half-truths.

 

[Laura]

Questions

Very little in ANY of the gospels or other biblical or extra-biblical writings can actually be attributed to "Jesus." You might enjoy my tracking of the ancient gnostic tradition in "Secret History," as well as reading Burton Mack, Thomas L. Thompson, and others, on the topic of the "Bible", who wrote it, why and when.

 

[Vivitskaia]

Questions

Peam wrote "the Bible". You quoted from outside of "the Bible".

I didn't claim it was in the Bible.

I am not a fundamentalist Christian. Once I have found the Key of Life, an esoteric teaching, and assimilated it in Being, I can re-cognise the Truth, whether in the gnostic gospels, the Mahabarata or Asatru.

 

[ScioAgapeOmnis]

Questions

I didn't claim it was in the Bible.

But you didn't say that it wasn't. The request specifically asked for a biblical quote, and in your reply you did not clarify that this wasn't actually in the Bible, which creates the impression that it is since this is what was requested.

I am not a fundamentalist Christian.

No one said you were.

Once I have found the Key of Life, an esoteric teaching

The key of life is Knowledge, and esoteric teachings can help us attain it. But the teachings are nothing without understanding and applying them. Also, the teachings are not always correct in all things, so once again the key is within your ability to weed, learn, understand, and apply.

and assimilated it in Being

How can you assimilate something in Being when you don't have a Being to begin with? And why would you choose to assimilate something without first making sure that it is true? Just because it falls into the category of "esoteric teaching" does not mean it must be assumed to be true, or applicable in its current state without adapting it to the circumstances we are currently in.

I can re-cognise the Truth

You can only recognize the Truth that you already know and also use your current understanding to make an "educated guess" about some things you don't know. But you cannot know if these things are true without data.

whether in the gnostic gospels, the Mahabarata or Asatru.

You can weed, but weeding requires knowledge, and knowledge requires data. Your faith in your ability to just recognize the Truth when you see it is a major blind spot. No matter who you are and how much you know, there is always something that you don't know - which requires that you collect more data to be able to tell whether it is true or not.

Even a simple thing like interacting and communicating on this forum you're having trouble doing. You couldn't even figure out how to use the quote function, which if you took 5 minutes to read and experiment with it a bit you'd easily know how to do.

Then you consistently make assumptions, many of which have been verified to be false by this network, like:

If one man has done it, any man can do it.

Not true - not all humans are "created equal", by far.

When I am in certain states I am able to receive help from higher forces. I know this for myself, from direct experience. This is how I understand verification. When I know, for myself, that something is so, it becomes gnosis.

There are many STS "higher forces" as well. Additionally, your understanding of verification seems to be seriously lacking - you cannot verify something by getting it from "higher forces".

Beelzebub is the fallen angel, Lucifer

That assumption may not be true - see Laura's reply.

In order to understand more [about organ Kundabuffer] it is necessary to Work on being. How do you Work on being?

Vague and unhelpful responses like that also suggest that you're simply avoiding a question you don't know the answer to.

Through group meetings, directed meditation, sittings, Movements, tasks, individual direction, participating in Work gatherings, practising 1st, 2nd and 3rd line Work, inter alia. Doing what 'it' doesn't like.

As hkoehli said, "100 people can attend group meetings, meditate, sit, move, do tasks, etc. and not achieve anything."

If that is your understanding of what Work means, you've completely missed the mark.

And there are many more assumptions and incorrect conceptions that you're just taking for granted and not questioning in the few posts you've already made on this forum so far.

But also there's this issue christx11 and Anart noticed,

Are you purposefully trying to come off as this mysterious entity with knowledge or some such thing? It seems like it. But to me it comes off as an intellectual facade of self reflection.

Are you deliberately being obtuse, or is there, perhaps, a language barrier?

English is not my first language, it's true.

English is not my first language either, and I have seen many people who are very new to English that make a heck of a lot more sense. And based on what you've written you have a decent knowledge of English vocabulary, so I honestly don't think this is the problem. But here are some things that together add up to what the problem probably is:

From a question it is possible to increase understanding and to make a connection. Is there a question?

First indication of intellectual self-importance right there, osit.

I sense that I am in danger of becoming too head-brain based

Kinda, I don't even think you're head-brain based. You're making assumptions and using phrases and words you don't understand to create the impression (both for yourself, and for others) that you know what you're talking about. But from all your posts so far, I get the distinct impression that you haven't a clue, but like to think you do.

I wish to exchange with you. In order to do that I have to be what I am.

To the contrary, you have to be willing to question and change what you are. This is not just external consideration, or just common courtesy, but it's also what the Work is about.

I begin to uncover the Kingdom within. Kundabuffer, Atlantis, the Sphinx, Belcultassi, the Sun that doesn't light nor heat and many other things begin to be understood, organically.

Maybe I'm just dense but I don't know what any of that means. And if you understand it in such a way that you cannot possibly elaborate, explain, or help someone else understand other than by just saying "work on Being", then I suspect you're not understanding it at all. Plus, what good would such an "understanding" be if you cannot help others understand it?

My burning question is how can I understand the Fifth Stopinder?

Please carefully read Laura's reply here as I think it hits the problem you seem to be experiencing head-on:
http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=8657.msg64601#msg64601

“Don't judge a man by the tales of others.” G.I. Gurdjieff

Are you heeding this advice when you say this:

Jesus said "if you want to know the future, dance".

The problem appears to be a false sense of knowing.

Also, I may be wrong, but another trend I notice in your replies, is that you're not heeding the suggestions and comments of others. You pretend to, you say stuff like "ah thanks for letting me know" but then continue on doing exactly what you were asked to explain and address. So you're not really "networking", as in, not willing to question what others say and critically consider it and address it.

In short, you don't appear to be doing the Work at all, only pretending to in order to convince yourself that you are, and also attempt to convince others that you are. You read really advanced/complex subjects and memorize the vocabulary and just start using it left and right without understanding the meanings and applications of it. I don't know if this was caused by misplaced faith in the integrity and legitimacy of the 4th way schools you were involved in, or just a personal issue. Again, I may be wrong, it's just the impression I get from all your posts thus far.

 

[ark]

Questions

I can re-cognise the Truth

Almost everybody claims the same. So, there is not much of an information in such a statement :)

 

[Peam]

Questions

I didn't claim it was in the Bible.

Although you didn't actually claim it was in the Bible, by putting
"if you want to know the future, dance" in quotation marks and stating that Jesus said it, gave me the impression that you were quoting Jesus as actually saying it, and therefore would likely be in the Bible.

I couldn't find any such quote in the Bible and nothing from Google, so that's why I asked.

So it was from The Acts of John.
But even your quote from the acts of John doesn't contain your actual quote
"if you want to know the future, dance".

 

[Vivitskaia]

Questions

How do you tally Gurdjieff's description of ancient Egypt in 'Fourth Sojourn' (in Beelzebub's Tales) with your perception of ancient Egyptian civilisation as serving Nature (my interpretation of an article about Schwaller de Lubicz on cassiopea.org)?

My references to terms used in Beelzebub's Tales are based on the assumption that we share an objective language derived from Work ideas (I also assume that you read Beelzebub's Tales). I had been told by people on other forums that sott.net would be a good place to discuss and perhaps further understanding of Beelzebub's Tales.

I'm beginning to feel like I am being interrogated by the thought police:). I was under the impression that this is a free-thinking website - may I express my understanding as it is without being flamed, or does it have to conform to a pre-conceived 'orthodoxy'?

If so, what is that 'orthodoxy'?

 

[Vivitskaia]

Questions

There are a number of translations of the Acts of John, and the Bible. Go to the original Greek if you are interested.