Raine, Samenow, Fallon: Neuropsychology & The Work

[Andrew]

Wanted to add my brief experience so far. I recently started reading Inside the Criminal mind and I think it really hit me last night. I realized I’ve been behaving with similar thinking patterns outlined in the first few chapters of the book for the majority, if not my entire life. And I couldn’t help but reflect on my past bad deeds and behaviors. I’ve also had this continual pattern of wishful thinking that I was going to be/do something great, without having to put any work into the process. Like it was just owed to me.

After realizing I've been a little monster for most of my life, I felt quite despondent. I had to put the book down. Now, I’m scared to open it up again. I know I need to, to hopefully learn how to correct my thinking. But it’s terrifying. I think to some degree the reason I’ve continued to avoid the forum, is because I’m not only terrified to see myself for what I really am, but that to progress, it requires actual work on myself and emotional healing. This is another terrifying prospect since I’ve tried to avoid unpleasant emotions for so long. This avoidance of reality is only furthering my own self-imposed isolation from others, and driving me further into a contracted state of being, which is becoming quite unbearable.

Just to give some background here, I’ve also started reading HDT and really recognized a lot of myself in the Connection Survival Style with a bit of the other survival types sprinkled on top. I’ve still yet to complete that book or to fully understand how to start behaving differently. With that said, I’ve also been doing regular NeuroFeedback training sessions as well as getting back on Keto; cutting out all sugars, dairy & grains. Drinking nothing but filtered water, and slowly trying to wean myself off Coffee.

I’m also trying to do the complete EE program on Mondays & Thursdays as well as trying to do the Meditation every other night. I’m considering doing the complete program every day, but I’m a bit afraid of the degree of emotional healing that may occur. Many years ago, I’ve experienced seeing lights among other sensations & phenomenon while in a meditative state, and that really scared me.

Reading through the EE FAQ’s I came across this:

I suspect that some of the effects that many of you are reporting (lights, pressures, etc) are you feeling your own higher self/essence at work.

So I’m not sure I’m not ready for that yet, but feel an increasing pressure to just put myself through the fire since I’ve already wasted so much time.

I’ve also cut out all of the extremely negative music I was drowning myself in on a daily basis. That has helped my psychic hygiene considerably. I’m also quitting the brief Marijuana use I had been engaging in for a couple months, which I was using to escape reality, suicidal thoughts & depression. After starting NeuroFeedback (I don’t know if this is the result of it) but I’ve observed on a few recent occasions, when these negative thoughts would start to enter my mind, there was almost like a ‘shielding’ effect against them, I think I experienced. Almost like I had a defense in place, preventing these thoughts from entering & taking over (identifying with them). I was almost able to look at it from an (objective perspective?) see it for what it was, and then let it go.

This also, inadvertently, caused me to look at The Matrix a bit differently.

Specifically when Neo says:

Neo: “What are you trying to tell me? That I can dodge bullets?”
Morpheus: “No, Neo. I’m trying to tell you that when you’re ready, you won’t have to.”

In other words, I looked at the “bullets” as being psychic/mental attacks and maybe, perhaps, when one has achieved a sufficient level of knowledge and being, defense against them will be inherent to ones being, as we see when Neo stops the bullets in their place.

Anyways, this defense experience worked for smaller negative thoughts/feelings but after getting through these first few chapters of Criminal Mind, I feel like that defense broke. I truly hope this gets easier as I learn and apply more. I just feel this mounting pressure in my head and I feel like I need to get these things I'm holding in, out to others who will be able to understand what I’m experiencing.

Thank you all for everything.

 

[Corvus]

Andrew,
for something to become inherent it requires much practice, belief and continuity, and when it comes to knowledge and being there is also difference between knowledge you read in books which won t really change your being, but only act as inspiration or eye opener, and knowledge about yourself and acting which will bring change.

I am at the end of ITCM book and I can not say I harbored much of that thinking, like sense of entitlement because it is me involved and no effort, it was quite frankly opposite through my whole life, I was a "good" boy more or less, you put effort, much of it, in professional areas, even for the price of your health which is coming to take price now, and you get nothing, nada, and they say to you life is unfair and laugh , and they get through life like those mentioned in the book, so I got "criminal" thinking about vengeance often not because there was perceived delusional injustice in my mind but because of injustice and asking what is the point, it will get only worse by the day. I found similarity when having expectations how it should end up so there are frustrations as a result that are not always constructive.

But there seems that Universe is taking it in it s hands now-days because criminals are running the show. Not that I am afraid of death, more of a pain but it was contract we all signed coming here.

 

[genero81]

Wanted to add my brief experience so far. I recently started reading Inside the Criminal mind and I think it really hit me last night. I realized I’ve been behaving with similar thinking patterns outlined in the first few chapters of the book for the majority, if not my entire life. And I couldn’t help but reflect on my past bad deeds and behaviors. I’ve also had this continual pattern of wishful thinking that I was going to be/do something great, without having to put any work into the process. Like it was just owed to me.

After realizing I've been a little monster for most of my life, I felt quite despondent. I had to put the book down. Now, I’m scared to open it up again. I know I need to, to hopefully learn how to correct my thinking. But it’s terrifying. I think to some degree the reason I’ve continued to avoid the forum, is because I’m not only terrified to see myself for what I really am, but that to progress, it requires actual work on myself and emotional healing. This is another terrifying prospect since I’ve tried to avoid unpleasant emotions for so long. This avoidance of reality is only furthering my own self-imposed isolation from others, and driving me further into a contracted state of being, which is becoming quite unbearable.

Been there done that. Doesn't get any better until you face up to what you are trying to avoid. In fact, once the grace period is over, it intensifies. Reality demands a choice be made eventually.

Just to give some background here, I’ve also started reading HDT and really recognized a lot of myself in the Connection Survival Style with a bit of the other survival types sprinkled on top. I’ve still yet to complete that book or to fully understand how to start behaving differently. With that said, I’ve also been doing regular NeuroFeedback training sessions as well as getting back on Keto; cutting out all sugars, dairy & grains. Drinking nothing but filtered water, and slowly trying to wean myself off Coffee.

I’m also trying to do the complete EE program on Mondays & Thursdays as well as trying to do the Meditation every other night. I’m considering doing the complete program every day, but I’m a bit afraid of the degree of emotional healing that may occur. Many years ago, I’ve experienced seeing lights among other sensations & phenomenon while in a meditative state, and that really scared me.

Reading through the EE FAQ’s I came across this:

I suspect that some of the effects that many of you are reporting (lights, pressures, etc) are you feeling your own higher self/essence at work.

So I’m not sure I’m not ready for that yet, but feel an increasing pressure to just put myself through the fire since I’ve already wasted so much time.

Try it. I would say that EE helped me a lot. Taking decisive action is a good indication that you're ready for something different. Now act consistently but don't be in too much of a hurry. Learning is fun once one learns how to engage the process without too much angst.

I’ve also cut out all of the extremely negative music I was drowning myself in on a daily basis. That has helped my psychic hygiene considerably. I’m also quitting the brief Marijuana use I had been engaging in for a couple months, which I was using to escape reality, suicidal thoughts & depression. After starting NeuroFeedback (I don’t know if this is the result of it) but I’ve observed on a few recent occasions, when these negative thoughts would start to enter my mind, there was almost like a ‘shielding’ effect against them, I think I experienced. Almost like I had a defense in place, preventing these thoughts from entering & taking over (identifying with them). I was almost able to look at it from an (objective perspective?) see it for what it was, and then let it go.

This also, inadvertently, caused me to look at The Matrix a bit differently.

Specifically when Neo says:

Neo: “What are you trying to tell me? That I can dodge bullets?”
Morpheus: “No, Neo. I’m trying to tell you that when you’re ready, you won’t have to.”

In other words, I looked at the “bullets” as being psychic/mental attacks and maybe, perhaps, when one has achieved a sufficient level of knowledge and being, defense against them will be inherent to ones being, as we see when Neo stops the bullets in their place.

Anyways, this defense experience worked for smaller negative thoughts/feelings but after getting through these first few chapters of Criminal Mind, I feel like that defense broke. I truly hope this gets easier as I learn and apply more. I just feel this mounting pressure in my head and I feel like I need to get these things I'm holding in, out to others who will be able to understand what I’m experiencing.

Thank you all for everything.

Seems like some assumptions there. I don't think there's the right emphasis in that strategy. Think in terms of who you want to be and what you want to think about. I don't think negative thoughts are much more than a nuisance really. Act in favor of your destiny. Negative thoughts and feelings be damned!

 

[Turgon]

...but I’ve observed on a few recent occasions, when these negative thoughts would start to enter my mind, there was almost like a ‘shielding’ effect against them, I think I experienced. Almost like I had a defense in place, preventing these thoughts from entering & taking over (identifying with them). I was almost able to look at it from an (objective perspective?) see it for what it was, and then let it go...

Anyways, this defense experience worked for smaller negative thoughts/feelings but after getting through these first few chapters of Criminal Mind, I feel like that defense broke. I truly hope this gets easier as I learn and apply more. I just feel this mounting pressure in my head and I feel like I need to get these things I'm holding in, out to others who will be able to understand what I’m experiencing.

That is a good way at looking at negative thoughts in trying to look at them more objectively. But the 'criminal mind' is different in that it's deeply embedded in all of us to varying degrees and has been there for a very long time, so it's important to face the reality of how it's manifested itself over the course of time, as well as 'seeing' and viscerally feeling the impact and significance of where those thinking errors and lies led you, so that you can muster the sense of agency needed to take responsibility for yourself and how you think instead of being victimized by it. So it's not that the process you described is much different, but that the negative thoughts that you are dealing with are more complex and rooted.

And Laura wouldn't have recommended it to everyone if it wasn't worth reading and persisting through it. It can seem daunting seeing so much of yourself in the book, but I'd say keep going and make it to the end. The last chapter really puts things into perspective. And you can use the 'terror of the situation' and how you're feeling as motivation to keep going, because from what you describe, the alternative doesn't sound worth it.

After realizing I've been a little monster for most of my life, I felt quite despondent. I had to put the book down. Now, I’m scared to open it up again. I know I need to, to hopefully learn how to correct my thinking. But it’s terrifying. I think to some degree the reason I’ve continued to avoid the forum, is because I’m not only terrified to see myself for what I really am, but that to progress, it requires actual work on myself and emotional healing. This is another terrifying prospect since I’ve tried to avoid unpleasant emotions for so long. This avoidance of reality is only furthering my own self-imposed isolation from others, and driving me further into a contracted state of being, which is becoming quite unbearable.

Who you are isn't the the 'criminal mind', but avoiding the problem won't make it go away. Instead of giving into the fear, tell yourself that you can do it, and focus on that. Even if you don't know how just yet. There is light at the end of the tunnel if you are willing to put the work and effort into it, but you also need to know and understand what exactly your up against.

 

[Laura]

As I've mentioned, I don't think I've ever seen a book that lays out the workings of the "false personality" as Gurdjieff would describe it as clearly as this one; even G didn't do as good a job. Same with Castaneda and his "predator's mind". The terms and descriptions were always uncertain enough that people could "explain away" any such activity in their own heads. And that's not to say that there may not be some who can STILL explain it away even after reading Samenow. But most people can't, at least if there is a modicum of honesty and sincerity inside them.

The next important step is to read "Healing Developmental Trauma" because it is there that you get some of the details of how this kind of thinking came to be, how it operates, why, and so on. Most often it starts with infantile fear or anger.

Finally, after taking all that onboard, you come to NeuroFeedback as a possible/likely help in calming down some of the brain activity that keeps you imprisoned in your own mind and the possibility of becoming free to live in the now with sincerity.

 

[Alana]

Wanted to add my brief experience so far. I recently started reading Inside the Criminal mind and I think it really hit me last night. I realized I’ve been behaving with similar thinking patterns outlined in the first few chapters of the book for the majority, if not my entire life. And I couldn’t help but reflect on my past bad deeds and behaviors. I’ve also had this continual pattern of wishful thinking that I was going to be/do something great, without having to put any work into the process. Like it was just owed to me.

After realizing I've been a little monster for most of my life, I felt quite despondent. I had to put the book down. Now, I’m scared to open it up again. I know I need to, to hopefully learn how to correct my thinking. But it’s terrifying. I think to some degree the reason I’ve continued to avoid the forum, is because I’m not only terrified to see myself for what I really am, but that to progress, it requires actual work on myself and emotional healing. This is another terrifying prospect since I’ve tried to avoid unpleasant emotions for so long. This avoidance of reality is only furthering my own self-imposed isolation from others, and driving me further into a contracted state of being, which is becoming quite unbearable.

Just to give some background here, I’ve also started reading HDT and really recognized a lot of myself in the Connection Survival Style with a bit of the other survival types sprinkled on top. I’ve still yet to complete that book or to fully understand how to start behaving differently.

I too know that it can feel horrifying and helpless sometimes. But as others mentioned, these realizations do also provide the opportunity to see how we are and how to change so that we can become the best possible version of ourselves. So, do not lose heart. You are not alone in going through this either, we have all been there done that, and not just once, as you can see from the replies of others. And the opposite is certainly worse, to continue being and acting like jerks, as it would only spell disaster both for us, and for those close to us, in the future. Most people are born and die blind to these self-realizations, and they never understand why and how all the things that went wrong in their lives happenned, or that they were the reason for that. So it is a choice - a great choice at that! - to be able to stop, observe ourselves and reconsider where we are and where we would like to go/who we want to be, how to shape our life from now on. It is a great responsibility and a great opportunity, to not live as creatures without will, blown wherever the winds blow us, but creators of ourselves and our lives. OSIT.

I’m also trying to do the complete EE program on Mondays & Thursdays as well as trying to do the Meditation every other night. I’m considering doing the complete program every day, but I’m a bit afraid of the degree of emotional healing that may occur. Many years ago, I’ve experienced seeing lights among other sensations & phenomenon while in a meditative state, and that really scared me.

Reading through the EE FAQ’s I came across this:

I suspect that some of the effects that many of you are reporting (lights, pressures, etc) are you feeling your own higher self/essence at work.

So I’m not sure I’m not ready for that yet, but feel an increasing pressure to just put myself through the fire since I’ve already wasted so much time.

Regarding practicing EE everyday, I wouldn't recommend that to you - or to anyone else for that matter. For the time being, I would suggest that you continue with the entire program as you do (Mondays and Thursdays) and try to do the 3-stage-breathing and the meditation every night before bed. Along with the dietary changes you are making and the Neurofeedback training, it will help you very much. If at some point you feel that any of the EE exercises are too much for you or produce effects that make you feel uncomfortable, then stop practicing that exercise for a while, and let us know about it in the EE thread. You can always do a few pipe-breaths if you start feeling uncomfortable, and that will help your system calm down and you, to feel safe again.

 

[Andrew]

Thank you everyone for your feedback and insight.

It can seem daunting seeing so much of yourself in the book, but I'd say keep going and make it to the end. The last chapter really puts things into perspective. And you can use the 'terror of the situation' and how you're feeling as motivation to keep going, because from what you describe, the alternative doesn't sound worth it.

It most certainly is daunting, and quite unnerving to realize I’ve lived for so long this way without any feelings of responsibility for my behavior. I’ve read a little more since my first post, after a brief break from it, and noticed there was much less of an emotional reaction to it and more of a ‘curiosity’ to see what more I could uncover.

Who you are isn't the the 'criminal mind', but avoiding the problem won't make it go away.

Yes I agree. With Castenedas concept of the Predators mind, and this book to provide the practical perspective to it, it's much clearer to 'see' the predator at work which then gives me the choice to do something about it.

As I've mentioned, I don't think I've ever seen a book that lays out the workings of the "false personality" as Gurdjieff would describe it as clearly as this one; even G didn't do as good a job. Same with Castaneda and his "predator's mind". The terms and descriptions were always uncertain enough that people could "explain away" any such activity in their own heads. And that's not to say that there may not be some who can STILL explain it away even after reading Samenow. But most people can't, at least if there is a modicum of honesty and sincerity inside them.

I agree. While I felt I understood the concepts from G and Casteneda it didn’t provide the practical understanding I needed. It did however provide a base of awareness. Which was perhaps a necessary precursor? I can imagine reacting, with more emotional volatility and possibly flat out denial, if it wasn’t for their introduction to the concept.

The next important step is to read "Healing Developmental Trauma" because it is there that you get some of the details of how this kind of thinking came to be, how it operates, why, and so on. Most often it starts with infantile fear or anger.

Thank you. That helps to better understand HDT’s relation here, which I wasn’t 100% sure on initially.

Finally, after taking all that onboard, you come to NeuroFeedback as a possible/likely help in calming down some of the brain activity that keeps you imprisoned in your own mind and the possibility of becoming free to live in the now with sincerity.

As for the NeuroFeedback, I definitely feel it’s doing something. However, it’s difficult to verbalize. I notice my mind not losing control to the degree that it used to. There also isn’t this internal struggle to maintain that control. It’s kind of like when it starts, my mind becomes ‘alert’ to the unbalance and attempts to snap myself out of it. There’s still a definite ‘tug’ to identify with whatever may be happening internally, but I don’t feel so powerless against it now.

I too know that it can feel horrifying and helpless sometimes. But as others mentioned, these realizations do also provide the opportunity to see how we are and how to change so that we can become the best possible version of ourselves. So, do not lose heart. You are not alone in going through this either, we have all been there done that, and not just once, as you can see from the replies of others. And the opposite is certainly worse, to continue being and acting like jerks, as it would only spell disaster both for us, and for those close to us, in the future. Most people are born and die blind to these self-realizations, and they never understand why and how all the things that went wrong in their lives happenned, or that they were the reason for that. So it is a choice - a great choice at that! - to be able to stop, observe ourselves and reconsider where we are and where we would like to go/who we want to be, how to shape our life from now on. It is a great responsibility and a great opportunity, to not live as creatures without will, blown wherever the winds blow us, but creators of ourselves and our lives. OSIT.

Thank you Alana very much for this.

Regarding practicing EE everyday, I wouldn't recommend that to you - or to anyone else for that matter. For the time being, I would suggest that you continue with the entire program as you do (Mondays and Thursdays) and try to do the 3-stage-breathing and the meditation every night before bed. Along with the dietary changes you are making and the Neurofeedback training, it will help you very much.

Thank you for your suggestions. I will move forward and experiment with this approach. :)

 

[genero81]

I picked up where I left off in HDT and came across something that made me think of Andrew.

Therapies that focus dismantling the pride-based identifications- the so called defenses- can leave Connection clients feeling more identified with their shame. NARM emphasizes, in many different ways, that shame-based identifications result from the attempt to come to terms with early environmental failures, being careful not to leave clients more identified with feelings like a helpless child, a burden, undeserving, or unlovable.

So this really got me to thinking. Samenow essentially make mincemeat out of the rationalizations and justifications of pride based identification cutting the legs right out from underneath it. And pride based identification with it's resulting grandiosity is the coping mechanism to deal with feelings of shame and inadequacy.

In 'Maps of Meaning' Peterson goes into detail about the process of life from an archetypal angle. He says the known is like a tiny island surrounded by a vast ocean of the unknown. The known constitutes the structured reality of the conscious mind individually as well as the structure of society under the category of Patriarchy. Whether at the individual level or societal level, the known must be periodically updated. Otherwise it becomes rigid, tyrannical. It no longer serves the individual or society it once provided stability for. The role of the hero is to venture into the unknown to retrieve the needed information for update and restructuring.

Now Heller states that we are aware that our survival strategies are no long serving us long before we are able to do something about it. From my own personal experience, I would say that's absolutely true. So what I'm thinking based on the context of what I just outlined, is that the pride based identification constitutes the structured 'reality' of a survival style designed to provide stability from the terror of the foreboding unknown, which in this case is the shame based identification of the traumatized inner child.

This is essentially the 'predators maneuver' resulting in their giving us 'their mind' And what does Castaneda say about the predators? "It is the predators who make us complacent, routinary, (employing the same survival style strategy way beyond it's usefulness) and egomaniacal." (pride based identification)

But pride based identifications and shame based identifications are two sides of the same coin. The only validity and power they have is what we give them through our fear and anger, lack of knowledge and understanding. But once we understand the dynamic, we can begin the process of disengaging from it using whatever tools we have at our disposal. OSIT

 

[nature]

I just finished Samenow's book "inside the criminal mind". I couldn't believe my eyes while reading the 2 last chapters where Dr Yochelson has succeeded in criminals' habilitation .
I wonder if it works for successfull psychopathes. If yes, I'll be pleased to send this book to Killary or May and Co. Or to my ex !!

And this was a program in the 60's !! What happened since then, why the 2018 psychiatrists don't know about a so wonderfull program?

Also, I loved reading the sentence "thinking about thinking" because it reminded me about Collingwood at another level. It seems that thinking errors are the key in many domains ie. personal, familial, society, humanity, and maybe Univers, Creation.

 

[Aeneas]

I picked up where I left off in HDT and came across something that made me think of Andrew.

Therapies that focus dismantling the pride-based identifications- the so called defenses- can leave Connection clients feeling more identified with their shame. NARM emphasizes, in many different ways, that shame-based identifications result from the attempt to come to terms with early environmental failures, being careful not to leave clients more identified with feelings like a helpless child, a burden, undeserving, or unlovable.

So this really got me to thinking. Samenow essentially make mincemeat out of the rationalizations and justifications of pride based identification cutting the legs right out from underneath it. And pride based identification with it's resulting grandiosity is the coping mechanism to deal with feelings of shame and inadequacy.

As I see it then the approaches are different. Where Samenow doesn't give any room for excuses, NARM is much more gentle and non-intruding. But then they are also dealing with very different sets of people and one can seriously doubt if the NARM approach would have had any impact on Leroy which Samenow describes in the second last chapter. And in the same way, one could doubt if the Leroy-treatment would serve the kind of people who come to a NARM therapist. Larry Heller in HRT, gives an example in chapter 9 of how he is 'treating' Carla. Though Larry does correct the thinking pattern, it is more as if he elicits this understanding from the patient herself by a combination of bottom-up and top-down approaches, somatic experiencing and mindfulness, rather than telling her where her thinking is wrong.

The criminals that Samenow deals with do not come for treatment because they think that there is something wrong with them, but because they are forced to or mandated to, if they are interested in avoiding serious lifelong imprisonment. The clients of the NARM therapists are people who seek the therapists out because they wish to change as they have lives that are unfulfilled.

In terms of the Work, then it might well be a combination of both. We need to get the shock that we share (many) aspects of the criminal mind and how we lie to ourselves or make excuses due to hard wired thinking errors. Unlike the criminal we are here involved in the Work out of our own free Will, and our response to the shocks can help to realize for one self at least, if we are seriously interested in the Work or whether we just like to delude ourselves into thinking that we are doing the Work. Samenow is very practical and the part of no excuses might be what is needed for some of us, though for others among us, who are indulging in shame and guilt, such an approach might just encourage the Trappist monk in us, thus driving the essence part even further underground. In other words, for some, the stick is the most useful, most of the time and for others, the carrot is more effective. And for most a combination of the two.

Understanding the underlying causes as outlined in Healing Developmental Trauma is important to find a way out of it. And much as we on the surface might say "Yeah, just show it all to me, I can handle it. I want to know the truth at all cost!", then the truth might be that for most of us, that would cause a complete collapse and depression or a retreat into denial. So it is a process and continual shocks are needed. We, who are involved in the Work, don't necessarily work with a personal therapist, but that is where the network is very important, both to supply knowledge, but also to call out the lying to ourselves - and of course as a general support and encouragement. The dual track of growth in knowledge and growth in being comes to mind.

 

[genero81]

In terms of the Work, then it might well be a combination of both. We need to get the shock that we share (many) aspects of the criminal mind and how we lie to ourselves or make excuses due to hard wired thinking errors. Unlike the criminal we are here involved in the Work out of our own free Will, and our response to the shocks can help to realize for one self at least, if we are seriously interested in the Work or whether we just like to delude ourselves into thinking that we are doing the Work. Samenow is very practical and the part of no excuses might be what is needed for some of us, though for others among us, who are indulging in shame and guilt, such an approach might just encourage the Trappist monk in us, thus driving the essence part even further underground. In other words, for some, the stick is the most useful, most of the time and for others, the carrot is more effective. And for most a combination of the two.

Yes, good point. It depends on the individual circumstance and motivation. However, it was actually more of a shock for me reading Heller because Heller was hitting the nerve at the root. Kind of like Samenow was drilling out cavities but Heller was dealing with the root, like a root canal. The human spirit is pretty resilient though. When a person is engaging in exploratory behavior of the unknown from a need for answers, the hero archetype gets activated. Whatever shocks occur get reconciled successfully through transcendence of one's former state in most cases, I believe.

 

[Chu]

As I see it then the approaches are different. Where Samenow doesn't give any room for excuses, NARM is much more gentle and non-intruding. But then they are also dealing with very different sets of people and one can seriously doubt if the NARM approach would have had any impact on Leroy which Samenow describes in the second last chapter. And in the same way, one could doubt if the Leroy-treatment would serve the kind of people who come to a NARM therapist. Larry Heller in HRT, gives an example in chapter 9 of how he is 'treating' Carla. Though Larry does correct the thinking pattern, it is more as if he elicits this understanding from the patient herself by a combination of bottom-up and top-down approaches, somatic experiencing and mindfulness, rather than telling her where her thinking is wrong.

The criminals that Samenow deals with do not come for treatment because they think that there is something wrong with them, but because they are forced to or mandated to, if they are interested in avoiding serious lifelong imprisonment. The clients of the NARM therapists are people who seek the therapists out because they wish to change as they have lives that are unfulfilled.

In terms of the Work, then it might well be a combination of both. We need to get the shock that we share (many) aspects of the criminal mind and how we lie to ourselves or make excuses due to hard wired thinking errors. Unlike the criminal we are here involved in the Work out of our own free Will, and our response to the shocks can help to realize for one self at least, if we are seriously interested in the Work or whether we just like to delude ourselves into thinking that we are doing the Work. Samenow is very practical and the part of no excuses might be what is needed for some of us, though for others among us, who are indulging in shame and guilt, such an approach might just encourage the Trappist monk in us, thus driving the essence part even further underground. In other words, for some, the stick is the most useful, most of the time and for others, the carrot is more effective. And for most a combination of the two.

Understanding the underlying causes as outlined in Healing Developmental Trauma is important to find a way out of it. And much as we on the surface might say "Yeah, just show it all to me, I can handle it. I want to know the truth at all cost!", then the truth might be that for most of us, that would cause a complete collapse and depression or a retreat into denial. So it is a process and continual shocks are needed. We, who are involved in the Work, don't necessarily work with a personal therapist, but that is where the network is very important, both to supply knowledge, but also to call out the lying to ourselves - and of course as a general support and encouragement. The dual track of growth in knowledge and growth in being comes to mind.

I think you made very valid points, Aeneas. It's a bit like the difference that George Simon explains between the approach to have with a neurotic person who blames themselves for everything, and a character disturbed person who thinks he or she is a perpetual victim and is entitled to more just because. The neurotic may benefit more from NARM, and the character disturbed from Samenow's approach. But both methods combined seem more appropriate, because most people are within a spectrum of those two extremes. We are complex beings. Doing the Work, we can create narratives about what it is what "it doesn't like", while in reality, we are afraid of facing the worse parts of ourselves. For those parts, nothing like shocks and Samenow. For other parts, who are really insecure, wounded, etc, then a NARM-type approach would be better. But they go hand in hand.

In the end, I think it comes down to what is needed in the moment, depending on how far each person is willing to go. Whatever helps create the right kind of friction towards more conscious suffering and growth, is good. Whatever helps us live more in the present, while at the same time being aware of the root, is good too. OSIT.

 

[Laura]

I also think that many people are really beginning to get the idea of what "conscious suffering" can be: seeing yourself clearly and working with that...

 

[Jeffrey of Troy]

I also think that many people are really beginning to get the idea of what "conscious suffering" can be: seeing yourself clearly and working with that...

I understand term "conscious suffering" this way:

Suffering is not Good. (It has no independent/objective value as such.)

As you try to break free from The Matrix, it causes you pain to try to get you to not do what would get you free of it.

Motivated by love for Other Selves (as Ra might say), we choose to do The Work anyway, knowing it will hurt, in the hope that we might feed the Food Pyramid less (and maybe someday, not at all), so that it will not have as much power to force itself on others.

 

[genero81]

I also think that many people are really beginning to get the idea of what "conscious suffering" can be: seeing yourself clearly and working with that...

Yes, and along those lines this really got my attention from Heller:

The Paradox of Change

In NARM, it is maintained that the more we try to change ourselves, the more we prevent change from occurring. On the other hand, the more we allow ourselves to fully experience who we are, the greater the possibility of change. This understanding is core to NARM. The orientation is one of working with what is, rather than how we want things to be. This perspective is consistent with present- moment focus because it is only in the present moment that we are able to fully experience ourselves.

That really nails what happened with me and why I think there is talk of surrender in recovery. Sometimes you have to stop fighting and start where you are actually at in order to make change a possibility.