Revolution in Ukraine: Western-engineered Coup d'État?

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Lumiere_du_Code

Jedi Council Member
Re: Article about Ukraine

Laura said:
It seems to me that it is not Russia punishing Ukraine, but rather the CIA in there trying to drive Ukrainians into a revolution and right into the arms of the EU, the CIA's handmaiden. I think that Ukraine would be a lot safer and have less internal interference from Russia.

This whole situation follows the Libyan, Egyptian, Syrian template which was forged in Central America. They just keep doing the same thing all over the world.

Notice that, along with all that is happening there, you see a "hotting up" of anti-Russian propaganda in the US. A sure sign.

And the poor Ukrainians are falling right into the trap.
Hello, Laura. Reading our translations of sessions and articles written by You, we admire Your insight and knowledge. I'm glad the opportunity to talk with You as well.
People in Ukraine just do not understand objective state of affairs, at is most. Some are passive, some vehemently justify their allowed, unwilling to face the truth, it is necessary to shift to someone "build wonderful life with new government." each side uses propaganda and brainwashing. and the few who understand the situation when they try to speak, every time there appear fanatics and brand them. anyone who does not share their opinions - enemy or a fool. and those who work on the budget enterprises and organizations, too, power wrangles on anti-protests, just giving no choice: "or are you going to support the president and blaspheme protesters, or you do not work here anymore." in provincial cities, where wages are much lower than in metropolitan areas, and there's no other work, people just nothing else to do, because if they are dismissed for failure, than to feed my family?
 

seek10

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Re: Article about Ukraine

Lumiere_du_Code said:
People in Ukraine just do not understand objective state of affairs, at is most. Some are passive, some vehemently justify their allowed, unwilling to face the truth, it is necessary to shift to someone "build wonderful life with new government." each side uses propaganda and brainwashing. and the few who understand the situation when they try to speak, every time there appear fanatics and brand them. anyone who does not share their opinions - enemy or a fool. and those who work on the budget enterprises and organizations, too, power wrangles on anti-protests, just giving no choice: "or are you going to support the president and blaspheme protesters, or you do not work here anymore." in provincial cities, where wages are much lower than in metropolitan areas, and there's no other work, people just nothing else to do, because if they are dismissed for failure, than to feed my family?
Almost all the countries in this blue marble fall under your description, because it is always between greedy oligarchy( most of them are psychopaths) vs common man
 

Avala

Dagobah Resident
Re: Article about Ukraine

Hi, Lumiere_du_Code :)

I live in Belgrade, Serbia, and the events in Ukraine reminds me of the events in Serbia in the end oh the 1990s and in the 2000. In the 2000 the western paid opposition overthrew Slobodan Milosevic, all on our great joy and our great hopes for the future, just because we was tired of hard life (or what we perceived as hard life at that time) and essentially we was naive and fooled by the western media (just like you are today, but allow me to continue, I will explain it later). Later we released that it doesn't work that way, the west didn't gave us money, didn't gave us investments, actually the west and the European Union didn't act as a friend at all. The better life never came, and in a fact it actually got worse.

In following years (from the 2000. when "democratic" opposition came to power) the new type of oligarchs came into power in Serbia, but this time backed by the west and the EU. And that new oligarchs actually was democratic opposition leaders from the 1990s, the same in which we had such high hopes, just like yours Klitschko today (yes, I know that sounds unbelievable, it would sound unbelievable for me in the 1990s). Then they showed their true faces and intentions. They literary stole everything that wasn't nailed in the whole country, and what was nailed, they soled it priceless to the western companies who cut it in pieces and just left it (factories for example). Then we released that actually we lived good in the era of Slobodan Milosevic comparing with these.

The main thing is that at the era of Slobodan Milosevic the psychopathy in the power wasn't so obvious, it didn't slapped your face like it does today for every day. There was some social equality and solidarity between state and the people. The majority of the people had their jobs, only with very small wages, or very irregularly, let say, on every two or more months, there was state syndicates which shared food to their employees, the state agencies was waiting for you if you didn't have the money to pay the bills (for the electricity for example). We was very poor, but we had a sense that we are human beings and treated as such. Now the psychopathy is very visible and we can feel it on our heads every single day.

It was very hard, don't forget that for example our dear European friends and NATO bombed us in 1999. for 3 months destroying almost all infrastructure and killing around 5000 civilians and some 2500 soldiers, covering the whole country in depleted uranium (by the courtesy of the USAF), but the main thing is: no one (the state) didn't treated you like you are last scum or like you are total idiot, which was the case from 2000 onwards, and which got worse with every new "democratic" government. The corruption now is so unbelievable, the government is so out of touch with the common people that is also unbelievable. The voice and the wishes of the people is never heard, the government lives in their own state of the mind which has nothing to do with the little common man.

To cut it short, this is what happened since 2000, and probably will happen to Ukraine if west tricks them to follow "their dreams and try to join EU" (and you cant join just like that, you must first sell everything you have, including your soul):

1. Your new "democratic and pro western" government will sold all (and that means ALL) industry to the western companies, who will shut them down (they have their own really, and yours are just competition which they cant have. Remember that those companies actually runs western countries).

2. They will privatize industry which is in state's possession. Of course the new owners will be them. That companies will be shuted down too. Millions of people will be without jobs (millions is in tiny Serbia, imagine that in much bigger Ukraine).

3. They will destroy agriculture, so that you can buy food only from the west. (of course, prepare yourself for the GMO, that's mandatory).

4. The common people will be treated like s..t by the government. Maybe you can think now "but we could have rebellion or people's uprise then!", well sorry, but you cant. Rebellions and uprises are constructed, just like yours now. And, by the way, you will not have political opposition to organize that. There are no political oppositions in "democratic" states.

You will be jobless, poor and hungry. That small percentage which would be so lucky to work for some western company will work much much more for very small wages, and actually will be just modern day slaves. People in Serbia works for western companies 12 hours a day, 6 days (or even 7) for 250 euros a month (and if you have that you are lucky). You can work for the German company but you will never have wage or working conditions like some German worker, you are not German, they have no obligations to treat you good, you are just cheap disposable low rank working horse. Then you will release what REAL imperialism and hegemony are, and that this what you have now is actually not so terrible.

Ukraine is ofcourse different then Serbia, and the circumstances are different, but that's it in essential.

BTW, the same people who fooled us, and made our "democratic revolution" are now making yours. The NGO called "Otpor" (resistance) in the 1990s, and now known as the "CANVAS" or the "Centre for Applied Nonviolent Action and Strategies". Also the usual names and agencies are in the play: USAID, Freedom House, National Endowment for Democracy, George Soros . . .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centre_for_Applied_Nonviolent_Action_and_Strategies

That same people are oligarchs in Serbia now. They are trained by the CIA, and doing their job in Ukraine (and other countries too), your Yanukovich even baned some of them:
http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/sbu-admits-some-foreigners-banned-from-ukraine-but-refuses-to-confirm-deny-names-334243.html

and some very interesting articles, Ukraine mentioned in almost all of them:

http://english.blic.rs/News/10033/CIA-in-shadow-praised-members-of-Serbian-Resistance

excerpt:
The Wikileaks site has posted internal I-mail correspondence of the employees in the American organization for geopolitical analysis ‘Stratfor’, call in media ‘CIA in shadow’. One of the individuals mentioned in these mails is Srdja Popovic, at that time a prominent member of the ‘Resistance’ and today the Executive Director of the Center for Applied Non-violent Action and Strategies (CANVAS), which is claimed to be involved worldwide in ousting regimes of dictators and autocrats not liked by the USA. In the mails written between 2007 and 2010, the activists of the CANVAS are being described as former members of the ‘Resistance’, ‘kids’ who after having ousted Milosevic, put on suits and founded the CANVAS.

‘That is an impressive group. They go, set up an ‘action’ in a country and are trying to oust its regime. When used appropriately, they are stronger than c combat group of plane carrier’, there is written about the CANVAS in one of the ‘Stratfor’ mails posted on the Wikileaks site on November 25. In one of the mails, the key people at the ‘Stratfor’ are debating about sources of financing of the CANVAS and they conclude that ‘this organization is getting a lot of American money’. ‘I do not have details, but I spoke to some people lobbying for them to get even more money such as Mick McFaul of the Hoover Institute (today American Ambassador in Russia), one mail reads. It is further specified that the ‘Resistance’ was financed, among others, by the Freedom House, the International Republican Institute, the Institute for Open Society, the USAID and the American Institute for Peace. ‘Since the CANVAS consists basically of the same people as those of the Resistance, I am sure that the same Dollars avenues have been opened to them’, the mail concludes.

What did ‘Stratfor’, i.e. the ‘Shadow CIA’ want from former members of the Serbian ‘Resistance’ today in the CANVAS? It wanted two things – information and contacts in the filed since the activists of the CANVAS were appearing as promoters of non-violent resistance at many places of crisis worldwide.

One of the Stratfor analysts says in a mail that he has known the members of the CANVAS since 2007 and that they have been sending to him information about Venezuela, Georgia and Serbia.
http://www.cafebabel.co.uk/society/article/canvas-otpor-pora-serbias-brand-is-non-violent-revolution.html

And this is the BEST link. The author did in the nutshell, all with the links to reference wikileaks emails which connects Canvas, CIA, Ukraine . . .

http://democracyandclasstruggle.blogspot.com/2013/12/wikileaks-otpor-canvas-collaboration.html

Also good video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lpXbA6yZY-8

I wish you all the best, and be smart, choose lesser evil ;) :flowers:
 

Laura

Administrator
Administrator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
Re: Article about Ukraine

What might be useful would be to translate Avala's comments into Russian and make it as widely available as possible. Perhaps even a pamphlet could be put together for distribution on the streets.
 

Alvalsen

Jedi
Re: Статьи об Украине

I live in Kiev
some people see the future as described Avala
Many people believe in a good future
promotion of "paradise" in the European Union is doing its job
 

ScioAgapeOmnis

The Living Force
Re: Article about Ukraine

Here's a translation of most of Avala's post into Russian (with my mom's help). We are both from Ukraine, and my dad currently still lives there, so all of this is hitting very close to home. It's really late so I have to go to sleep, so if someone could translate the rest, that would be awesome. Otherwise I'll finish it tomorrow. Also, this was a very enlightening post, and I had fun talking about it with my mom and analyzing the current situation in Ukraine in the process. We both agree with all the points, and she was very proud of our translation too :D

Я живу в Белграде, Сербия, и события в Украине напоминают мне о событиях в Сербии в конце 1990-х годов и в 2000 году. В 2000 году оплачиваемая Западом оппозиция свергла Слободана Милошевича, всё к нашей великой радости и наших больших надежд на будущее, только потому, что мы устали от тяжелой жизни (или то, что мы воспринимали как тяжёлую жизнь в то время) и, по сути, мы были наивны и одурачены западными средствами массовой информации (так же, как вы сегодня, но позвольте мне продолжить, я объясню это позже). Позже мы поняли что оно так не работает - Запад не давал нам денег, не давал нам инвестиций, в сущности Запад и Евросоюз не вели себя как друзья вообще. Лучшая жизнь никогда не пришла, и в действительности всё стало еще хуже.

В последующие годы (с 2000 года, когда "демократическая" оппозиция пришла к власти) новый тип олигархов пришел к власти в Сербии, но на этот раз при поддержке Запада и ЕС. И эти олигархи на самом деле были демократическими лидерами оппозиции от 1990-х годов, те самые, на которых мы имели такие большие надежды, так же как ваш Кличко сегодня (да, я знаю, это звучит невероятно, это бы звучало невероятно для меня в 1990-х годов тоже). Сразу после этого они показали свое настоящее лицо и намерениe. Они буквально украли все что не было "прибитым гвоздями" в целом по стране. Но даже то, что было пригвождено, они продали по частям западным компаниям которые разрезали на куски и просто оставили это (заводы , например). И тогда мы сообразили, что на самом деле мы жили хорошо в эпоху Слободана Милошевича по сравнению с ними.

Главное в том, что в эпоху Слободана Милошевича психопатия так очевидно не лезла в глаза, как это происходит сегодня каждый день. Было некоторое социальное равенство и солидарность между государством и народом. Большинство людей имели работу, только с очень маленькой заработной платой, даже нерегулярной, скажем, каждые два или более месяцев; были государственные синдикаты которые раздавали еду для своих работников, другие государственные органы ждали подолгу, если у вас не было денег, чтобы платить по счетам (за электроэнергию, например). Нам было очень плохо, но у нас было чувство, что мы - люди и рассматриваемся как таковые. Теперь психопатия очень видна и мы можем чувствовать это нашей кожей каждый день.

Да, это было очень тяжело. Не забывайте, что, например, наши дорогие европейские друзья и НАТО бомбили нас в 1999 году в течение 3-х месяцев, разрушая почти все инфраструктуры; убили около 5000 гражданских лиц и около 2500 солдат; покрыли всю страну обеднённым ураном (по любезности ВВС США). И всё-же никто не относился к тебе как к последнему подонку или как к полному идиоту, что имело место с 2000 года и становилось хуже с каждым новым "демократическим" правительством. Коррупция сейчас настолько повсеместна, правительство настолько оторвано от простых людей, что это кажется невероятным. Голос и пожелания простых людей никогда не слышны; правительство живет в своем собственном мирке, который не имеет ничего общего с "маленьким" простым человеком.

Короче говоря, всё это произошло с нами и, вероятно, произойдёт с Украиной, если запад затянет её в ЕС. Вы, конечно, можете присоединиться просто так, только сначала вы должны продать все, что имеете, в том числе ваши души.

1 . Ваше новое "демократическое и прозападное" правительство продаст всю индустрию (а это значит - ВСЮ) промышленности западных компаний, которые позакрывают все эти заводы и фабрики, так как имеют свои собственные на самом деле, а ваши - просто конкуренты, которые они не хотят и не могут иметь, так как их компании на самом деле контолируют западные страны.

2 . Они будут приватизировать всю вашу промышленность, которая пока находится в распоряжении государства и, конечно, новыми владельцами будут они сами. Затем позакрывают все купленные ими компании и миллионы людей останутся без работы. (Миллионы безработных сейчас в крошечной Сербии, представьте себе гораздо большую Украину).

3 . Они уничтожат сельское хозяйство , так что вы сможете купить еду только с запада и, конечно, необходимо подготовить себя к искусственно модифицированной еде (ГМО).

4 . Простые люди будут рассматриваться правительством как песчинки. Может быть, вы думаете сейчас, "тогда мы поднимем народ и организуем восстание", но извините - вы не сможете. Восстания, обычно, спроектированны. Кстати, вы не сможете создать политическую оппозицию, так как в демократических государствах просто не существует политических оппозиций.

Вы будете безработные, бедные и голодные. Небольшому проценту людей "повезёт" работать в течение некоторого времени на западную компанию, только за очень маленкую зарплату (станут современными рабами). Для примера: люди в Сербии работают на западные компании по 12 часов в день, 6 или даже 7 дней в неделю за 250 евро в месяц. Некоторые работают в немецких компаниях, но ни заработная плата, ни условия труда несравнимы с тем, что имеют немецкие рабочие, так как никаких обязательств по отношению к вам ни у кого нет и инностранные рабочие для немцев просто дешёвые одноразовые рабочие лошадки. И только тогда вы увидите что такое реальный империализм и гегемония... и поймёте что всё то, что у вас СЕЙЧАС - на самом деле не так страшно.

Конечно, Украина - не Сербия и обстоятельства - разные, но всё это не существенно.
We finished at "Ukraine is ofcourse different then Serbia, and the circumstances are different, but that's it in essential." and left everything else for tomorrow (or anyone who wants to jump in). Thanks for distilling the essence of what's happening in Ukraine with such an apt analogy, Avala, it's truly inevitable.

PS - if anyone sees any mistakes or a better way to phrase anything, or if we missed anything, please correct the translation as well. Thanks!
 

s-kur

Jedi Council Member
Re: Article about Ukraine

SAO said:
Here's a translation of most of Avala's post into Russian (with my mom's help). We are both from Ukraine, and my dad currently still lives there, so all of this is hitting very close to home. It's really late so I have to go to sleep, so if someone could translate the rest, that would be awesome. Otherwise I'll finish it tomorrow. Also, this was a very enlightening post, and I had fun talking about it with my mom and analyzing the current situation in Ukraine in the process. We both agree with all the points, and she was very proud of our translation too :D

I also did it, you were just faster))
 

SeekinTruth

Ambassador
Ambassador
FOTCM Member
Re: Article about Ukraine

Related to what's going on in Ukraine (and what's been going on for several years), the main reason Putin is so demonized in the western media propaganda and psyops they spread around in conjunction with the destruction they spread around, is that Putin cleaned up the dual Israel-Russian citizenship oligarch billionaires that had raped and plundered the country and become dominant.

They either fled to Israel or UK or ended up in jail. I think it is a very excellent idea to look not only to Serbia in terms of what is waiting for the Ukrainian people, but also what happened to Greece and Spain, as was said earlier. That's your best hope if your country joins the EU. I hope the Ukrainians are able to avoid the trap that's been set for them, but I have the sick feeling that the pathologicals behind all this are happy enough just to destroy the country even if they don't get what they're currently after. I hope I'm wrong and Ukraine is spared that fate.
 

Aeneas

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Re: Article about Ukraine

SeekinTruth said:
Related to what's going on in Ukraine (and what's been going on for several years), the main reason Putin is so demonized in the western media propaganda and psyops they spread around in conjunction with the destruction they spread around, is that Putin cleaned up the dual Israel-Russian citizenship oligarch billionaires that had raped and plundered the country and become dominant.

They either fled to Israel or UK or ended up in jail. I think it is a very excellent idea to look not only to Serbia in terms of what is waiting for the Ukrainian people, but also what happened to Greece and Spain, as was said earlier. That's your best hope if your country joins the EU. I hope the Ukrainians are able to avoid the trap that's been set for them, but I have the sick feeling that the pathologicals behind all this are happy enough just to destroy the country even if they don't get what they're currently after. I hope I'm wrong and Ukraine is spared that fate.
I concur with this. Like it has been said already, the West has a lot more to gain from causing chaos in Ukraine than Russia has. It is part of encircling Russia completely and capture the Eurasian heartland.

And a big thank you to Avala for a very enlightening article. Could be a Sott article, I think.
 

Lumiere_du_Code

Jedi Council Member
Re: Article about Ukraine

SAO said:
Here's a translation of most of Avala's post into Russian (with my mom's help). We are both from Ukraine, and my dad currently still lives there, so all of this is hitting very close to home. It's really late so I have to go to sleep, so if someone could translate the rest, that would be awesome. Otherwise I'll finish it tomorrow. Also, this was a very enlightening post, and I had fun talking about it with my mom and analyzing the current situation in Ukraine in the process. We both agree with all the points, and she was very proud of our translation too :D
Here, I corrected the text and translated the rest part.
 

Attachments

Lumiere_du_Code

Jedi Council Member
Re: Article about Ukraine

Avala said:
Hi, Lumiere_du_Code :)
...
I wish you all the best, and be smart, choose lesser evil ;) :flowers:
Hi, bro :) very thank you for what you have shared this, I will try to distribute this translation to people, but do not know yet how to make it accessible to protesters, because exactly they - the force that can stop process now, but they believe in opposition's manipulation, which is today officially confirmed that their goal - the resignation of Yanukovych and full employment guidance of country:
"Post Premiere makes no sense in the case if the opposition does not get full responsibility for all the affairs of the country. We want to hear from the President of a specific proposal that Ukrainian opposition will receive the full responsibility in the Cabinet, only then can we lead a discussion "- said Arseny Yatseniuk.
 

Lumiere_du_Code

Jedi Council Member
Re: Article about Ukraine

Laura said:
What might be useful would be to translate Avala's comments into Russian and make it as widely available as possible. Perhaps even a pamphlet could be put together for distribution on the streets.
thanks for idea :)
 

Gawan

Ambassador
Ambassador
FOTCM Member
Re: Article about Ukraine

Thank you for sharing your viewpoint Avala and I hope too that it turns out differently in the Ukraine.


Lumiere_du_Code said:
SAO said:
Here's a translation of most of Avala's post into Russian (with my mom's help). We are both from Ukraine, and my dad currently still lives there, so all of this is hitting very close to home. It's really late so I have to go to sleep, so if someone could translate the rest, that would be awesome. Otherwise I'll finish it tomorrow. Also, this was a very enlightening post, and I had fun talking about it with my mom and analyzing the current situation in Ukraine in the process. We both agree with all the points, and she was very proud of our translation too :D
Here, I corrected the text and translated the rest part.
Hi Lumiere and s-kur, you did quote yourself :), which makes it then a bit difficult to read, but no worries it just needs some practice. You can always preview your own message before posting. You only need to push the button "Preview" there you can see how your message would look like and if you see something you don't like you can edit it out or change it. Later on when you have enough postings, which should be about 50, you can even edit your own postings.
 

Lumiere_du_Code

Jedi Council Member
Re: Article about Ukraine

SeekinTruth said:
I hope the Ukrainians are able to avoid the trap that's been set for them, but I have the sick feeling that the pathologicals behind all this are happy enough just to destroy the country even if they don't get what they're currently after. I hope I'm wrong and Ukraine is spared that fate.
I also really would have hoped, but I see that everything is progressing as it drop to collapse.
and now, when Obama said that he must intervene in the situation in Ukraine, we should expect their bombers or mercenaries, I think.
Everything happens for dozens of times spent scenarios...
 

Attachments

Lumiere_du_Code

Jedi Council Member
Re: Article about Ukraine

Gawan said:
Hi Lumiere and s-kur, you did quote yourself :), which makes it then a bit difficult to read, but no worries it just needs some practice. You can always preview your own message before posting. You only need to push the button "Preview" there you can see how your message would look like and if you see something you don't like you can edit it out or change it. Later on when you have enough postings, which should be about 50, you can even edit your own postings.
:/ hmm... I'm not sure that understood correctly :) that means we cited ourselves? I quoted the post SAO :)
 
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