Revolution in Ukraine: Western-engineered Coup d'État?

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Re: Article about Ukraine

Avala said:
@Scio Agape Omnis,

That is great translation, word for a word :) I understand spoken and written russian, and I talk it a little bit, but I cant write it cause I don't have enough vocabulary and the grammar is confusing to me.

I've already posted your message on some websites and my friends in Ukraine, in my blog also, there in a few minutes one woman left a comment:
"Thank you, our dear friends Serbs-Slavs! 'choose the lesser evil' - keywords"
 
Re: Article about Ukraine

Lumiere_du_Code said:
Avala said:
@Scio Agape Omnis,

That is great translation, word for a word :) I understand spoken and written russian, and I talk it a little bit, but I cant write it cause I don't have enough vocabulary and the grammar is confusing to me.

I've already posted your message on some websites and my friends in Ukraine, in my blog also, there in a few minutes one woman left a comment:
"Thank you, our dear friends Serbs-Slavs! 'choose the lesser evil' - keywords"
And thank you for finishing/correcting the translation. I can't seem to properly open your .txt file however, do you know if I need a special font to view it? I see what looks like english letters with squiggly lines all around them instead of Russian for whatever reason.

And Avala's advice has me in a quandary. On the one hand I agree that it's safer to stay home, there's psychopaths manipulating both sides, and the police are being very brutal with those protesting. On the other hand, I also understand that those protesting in good faith are fed up with the corruption, and this is their way to express it. Just like in France and many other places. Perhaps the safest thing to do would be to inform the protestors of the pathological influence in their ranks, give them Avala's message, and perhaps some links that discuss COINTELPRO tactics (in Russian) would be great as well.

In fact, anywhere there are protests around the world, I think it would be awesome if the protestors could be reached with this vital information about how their ranks are infiltrated and corrupted to serve another agenda. And perhaps just as importantly, those who are not participating in the protest would need to be reached with this information so that they are not swayed by the propaganda against those who are protesting (the media always shows those who actually are planted to incite violence, in an effort to demonize the whole movement).

I think that Laura's booklet idea is perfect. Many people don't have the patience to sit down and read Political Ponerology. But a distilled version could be much more accessible.
 
Re: Article about Ukraine

Thanks for your council!,Gawan!

Very good explanation, Avala, it provided food for thought and opportunity to see a much bigger picture of all events..
 
Re: Article about Ukraine

Avala said:
Hi, Lumiere_du_Code :)

I live in Belgrade, Serbia, and the events in Ukraine reminds me of the events in Serbia in the end oh the 1990s and in the 2000. In the 2000 the western paid opposition overthrew Slobodan Milosevic, all on our great joy and our great hopes for the future, just because we was tired of hard life (or what we perceived as hard life at that time) and essentially we was naive and fooled by the western media (just like you are today, but allow me to continue, I will explain it later). Later we released that it doesn't work that way, the west didn't gave us money, didn't gave us investments, actually the west and the European Union didn't act as a friend at all. The better life never came, and in a fact it actually got worse.

In following years (from the 2000. when "democratic" opposition came to power) the new type of oligarchs came into power in Serbia, but this time backed by the west and the EU. And that new oligarchs actually was democratic opposition leaders from the 1990s, the same in which we had such high hopes, just like yours Klitschko today (yes, I know that sounds unbelievable, it would sound unbelievable for me in the 1990s). Then they showed their true faces and intentions. They literary stole everything that wasn't nailed in the whole country, and what was nailed, they soled it priceless to the western companies who cut it in pieces and just left it (factories for example). Then we released that actually we lived good in the era of Slobodan Milosevic comparing with these.

The main thing is that at the era of Slobodan Milosevic the psychopathy in the power wasn't so obvious, it didn't slapped your face like it does today for every day. There was some social equality and solidarity between state and the people. The majority of the people had their jobs, only with very small wages, or very irregularly, let say, on every two or more months, there was state syndicates which shared food to their employees, the state agencies was waiting for you if you didn't have the money to pay the bills (for the electricity for example). We was very poor, but we had a sense that we are human beings and treated as such. Now the psychopathy is very visible and we can feel it on our heads every single day.

It was very hard, don't forget that for example our dear European friends and NATO bombed us in 1999. for 3 months destroying almost all infrastructure and killing around 5000 civilians and some 2500 soldiers, covering the whole country in depleted uranium (by the courtesy of the USAF), but the main thing is: no one (the state) didn't treated you like you are last scum or like you are total idiot, which was the case from 2000 onwards, and which got worse with every new "democratic" government. The corruption now is so unbelievable, the government is so out of touch with the common people that is also unbelievable. The voice and the wishes of the people is never heard, the government lives in their own state of the mind which has nothing to do with the little common man.

To cut it short, this is what happened since 2000, and probably will happen to Ukraine if west tricks them to follow "their dreams and try to join EU" (and you cant join just like that, you must first sell everything you have, including your soul):

1. Your new "democratic and pro western" government will sold all (and that means ALL) industry to the western companies, who will shut them down (they have their own really, and yours are just competition which they cant have. Remember that those companies actually runs western countries).

2. They will privatize industry which is in state's possession. Of course the new owners will be them. That companies will be shuted down too. Millions of people will be without jobs (millions is in tiny Serbia, imagine that in much bigger Ukraine).

3. They will destroy agriculture, so that you can buy food only from the west. (of course, prepare yourself for the GMO, that's mandatory).

4. The common people will be treated like s..t by the government. Maybe you can think now "but we could have rebellion or people's uprise then!", well sorry, but you cant. Rebellions and uprises are constructed, just like yours now. And, by the way, you will not have political opposition to organize that. There are no political oppositions in "democratic" states.

You will be jobless, poor and hungry. That small percentage which would be so lucky to work for some western company will work much much more for very small wages, and actually will be just modern day slaves. People in Serbia works for western companies 12 hours a day, 6 days (or even 7) for 250 euros a month (and if you have that you are lucky). You can work for the German company but you will never have wage or working conditions like some German worker, you are not German, they have no obligations to treat you good, you are just cheap disposable low rank working horse. Then you will release what REAL imperialism and hegemony are, and that this what you have now is actually not so terrible.

Ukraine is ofcourse different then Serbia, and the circumstances are different, but that's it in essential.

BTW, the same people who fooled us, and made our "democratic revolution" are now making yours. The NGO called "Otpor" (resistance) in the 1990s, and now known as the "CANVAS" or the "Centre for Applied Nonviolent Action and Strategies". Also the usual names and agencies are in the play: USAID, Freedom House, National Endowment for Democracy, George Soros . . .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centre_for_Applied_Nonviolent_Action_and_Strategies

That same people are oligarchs in Serbia now. They are trained by the CIA, and doing their job in Ukraine (and other countries too), your Yanukovich even baned some of them:
http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/sbu-admits-some-foreigners-banned-from-ukraine-but-refuses-to-confirm-deny-names-334243.html

and some very interesting articles, Ukraine mentioned in almost all of them:

http://english.blic.rs/News/10033/CIA-in-shadow-praised-members-of-Serbian-Resistance

excerpt:
The Wikileaks site has posted internal I-mail correspondence of the employees in the American organization for geopolitical analysis ‘Stratfor’, call in media ‘CIA in shadow’. One of the individuals mentioned in these mails is Srdja Popovic, at that time a prominent member of the ‘Resistance’ and today the Executive Director of the Center for Applied Non-violent Action and Strategies (CANVAS), which is claimed to be involved worldwide in ousting regimes of dictators and autocrats not liked by the USA. In the mails written between 2007 and 2010, the activists of the CANVAS are being described as former members of the ‘Resistance’, ‘kids’ who after having ousted Milosevic, put on suits and founded the CANVAS.

‘That is an impressive group. They go, set up an ‘action’ in a country and are trying to oust its regime. When used appropriately, they are stronger than c combat group of plane carrier’, there is written about the CANVAS in one of the ‘Stratfor’ mails posted on the Wikileaks site on November 25. In one of the mails, the key people at the ‘Stratfor’ are debating about sources of financing of the CANVAS and they conclude that ‘this organization is getting a lot of American money’. ‘I do not have details, but I spoke to some people lobbying for them to get even more money such as Mick McFaul of the Hoover Institute (today American Ambassador in Russia), one mail reads. It is further specified that the ‘Resistance’ was financed, among others, by the Freedom House, the International Republican Institute, the Institute for Open Society, the USAID and the American Institute for Peace. ‘Since the CANVAS consists basically of the same people as those of the Resistance, I am sure that the same Dollars avenues have been opened to them’, the mail concludes.

What did ‘Stratfor’, i.e. the ‘Shadow CIA’ want from former members of the Serbian ‘Resistance’ today in the CANVAS? It wanted two things – information and contacts in the filed since the activists of the CANVAS were appearing as promoters of non-violent resistance at many places of crisis worldwide.

One of the Stratfor analysts says in a mail that he has known the members of the CANVAS since 2007 and that they have been sending to him information about Venezuela, Georgia and Serbia.

http://www.cafebabel.co.uk/society/article/canvas-otpor-pora-serbias-brand-is-non-violent-revolution.html

And this is the BEST link. The author did in the nutshell, all with the links to reference wikileaks emails which connects Canvas, CIA, Ukraine . . .

http://democracyandclasstruggle.blogspot.com/2013/12/wikileaks-otpor-canvas-collaboration.html

Also good video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lpXbA6yZY-8

I wish you all the best, and be smart, choose lesser evil ;) :flowers:

Avala,

I would like to thank you for writing this. For myself, as I live in the United States, it seems to be all to easy to forget what happens in the aftermath of this government/NATO/NWO's psychopathic actions.

They are so busy moving from one act of destruction to the next, my mind is easily distracted by what they are currently doing, letting the overall picture, the true horror of what it is they not only are doing, but have done slip from my view.

I am truly sorry that conditions in your country are where they are now at but I am also very thankful to you for writing this to remind that just because the bombs stopped falling and this "monster" in our midst has moved on to its next victim, the damage and suffering which follows can be just as horrible and oppressive and in some cases even worse.

They leave pain and misery in their wake.
Their cries for peace as always are fake.
They come not to heal but only to take.
In greed and in lust its war that they make.

Peace and be strong.
 
Re: Article about Ukraine

Two recent articles from SOTT also discuss the matter in terms of a Western-backed operation:

http://www.sott.net/article/272885-Whats-going-on-in-Ukraine

http://www.sott.net/article/272866-Coup-in-western-Ukraine-The-Arab-Spring-unleashed-in-Europe
 
Re: Article about Ukraine

[quote author= CrimsonEagle]

Avala,

I would like to thank you for writing this. For myself, as I live in the United States, it seems to be all to easy to forget what happens in the aftermath of this government/NATO/NWO's psychopathic actions.
[/quote]

Yes, thank you for writing this Avala. It is very important that people understand the bigger picture. I never really knew what exactly happened in Serbia, but you summed it up pretty well and it is the same scenerio played out everywhere, with the same miserable consequences.

Like Avala said, the electric company would wait for you to pay the bill, now, you'll be cut off. It is currently that way in Jordan, in some rural areas, you could not pay your bill for 10 years and they won't cut you off. But they do eventually ask for the money. As for land taxes, you could never pay and the gov will not confiscate your land and kick you out. They will wait until you want to sell, then they collect everything you owe. And in some cases, they collect the money after you are dead & gone.

This war monster wants everything. They want to own it all. Until people can see the bigger picture and quit fighting over trivial differences, it will continue. Like the C's said, it is not where you are, but what you "see" that is important. Sadly, it is difficult to get others to "see" and authoriatarian types will never be convinced, even with cold hard facts. But it is important to at least try to educate those who are not closed minded. :v:
 
Re: Article about Ukraine

Avala said:
That is good decision. Pathologicals are on every side, we really cant know what is true. And if I may suggest, if you are in Ukraine stay at home, however happenings on the streets looks interesting you don't want to be there.

Sorry for the post formating, I must have checked something in Opera (or not checked) so everything comes out messy on the forums in recent few days . . .

you can not call it interesting that is happening on our streets
when ordinary people are there mixed with the radicals who seized government buildings, they all become one
and it's like a barrel of honey with a spoon crap (there is an expression)
 
Re: Article about Ukraine

(hope I can convey his thoughts, despite the poor knowledge of the English language)

I just wanted to say that you get conflicting information conversing with the participants of these events

impossible by the actions of specific individuals to generalize and say that all the others are the same

not enough reliable information is actually
even being in the thick of things it does not often get
Ukrainian journalists show events not objectively, they fulfill orders of this or that political force

in the end, everyone believes what he wants to believe
and the true situation more clearly some forces use righteous indignation of the people
 
Re: Article about Ukraine

SAO said:
And thank you for finishing/correcting the translation. I can't seem to properly open your .txt file however, do you know if I need a special font to view it? I see what looks like english letters with squiggly lines all around them instead of Russian for whatever reason.

there is simply a txt file in the standard Windows ANSI encoding, Courier font there. I can do in a different format or document type, or you can try to re-save the text in a different encoding.
 
Re: Article about Ukraine

Courageous Inmate Sort said:
Two recent articles from SOTT also discuss the matter in terms of a Western-backed operation:

http://www.sott.net/article/272885-Whats-going-on-in-Ukraine

http://www.sott.net/article/272866-Coup-in-western-Ukraine-The-Arab-Spring-unleashed-in-Europe

Now I translate these articles into Russian and posted them where I can.
 
Re: Article about Ukraine

SAO said:
Perhaps the safest thing to do would be to inform the protestors of the pathological influence in their ranks, give them Avala's message, and perhaps some links that discuss COINTELPRO tactics (in Russian) would be great as well.

In fact, anywhere there are protests around the world, I think it would be awesome if the protestors could be reached with this vital information about how their ranks are infiltrated and corrupted to serve another agenda. And perhaps just as importantly, those who are not participating in the protest would need to be reached with this information so that they are not swayed by the propaganda against those who are protesting (the media always shows those who actually are planted to incite violence, in an effort to demonize the whole movement).

Many people don't have the patience to sit down and read Political Ponerology.

Unfortunately, the main problem here is exactly what the majority of people are fooled and all the hints, facts and links to a greater or lesser extent perceived as nonsense and "conspiracy theory" and it automatically ridiculed, ignored and insulted. "They came a messenger, but they killed him without hearing the message" - not remember where I read it, but that's how most people behave.
 
Re: Article about Ukraine

These two articles are a typical example of the Russian chauvinistic propaganda, considering that the West continues to see Ukraine through modern Soviet eyes. And it is when Ukrainian "democratically elected government" is usual lengthening of a hand of Moscow. Probably, the Russian regime is continuation of CIA (I know they are same at some level)...?

Certainly, there is no relation between events in Ukraine and Arabian spring or some "colour revolutions": facts are self explanatory.

It is a pity that at that forums theme there are no people who are able to analyze or at least from time to time looks at countries unknown to them objectively.
 
Re: Article about Ukraine

Avala said:
There is difference between Serbia's and Ukraine's demonstrations. It never was so violent in Serbia, at the end, however diabolic person Slobodan Milosevic was (and he was real dictator) he just stepped down.

Not exactly. He called the army for help but they said NO, unlike 1991 when they said YES: _http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pG-kU-HQBTM
 
Re: Article about Ukraine

Persej said:
Avala said:
There is difference between Serbia's and Ukraine's demonstrations. It never was so violent in Serbia, at the end, however diabolic person Slobodan Milosevic was (and he was real dictator) he just stepped down.

Not exactly. He called the army for help but they said NO, unlike 1991 when they said YES: _http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pG-kU-HQBTM

True, but it lasted the whole two days, one man died by falling over the fence running from the police, but the fact is that was never so violent like in Ukraine now. Not in 1991. or the next nine years during Milosevic's rule. And probably it was more gentle demonstrations than today's in let's say Paris or London (it was whole another time, on the end) I was there in person, almost on every demonstration against Milosevic in 1991 with 16 years, students demonstrations in 1996/97, and of course in 2000 when protesters burnt a couple of rooms in parliament and destroy entrance at the TV building. One girl died when accidentally fell under the bulldozer which was used for that.

Today, there is no army that someone could call (they literary sold it :) ) and they certainly wouldn't call the police, because they know that the answer is no. And that was my point. Milosevic was no a flower, he was real dictator, but didn't treated people as idiots in advance and expected respect and obey. If you were against him you were political opponent not idiot who don't knows nothing, like democratic governments treated people now (and not just political opponents but everyone). In Milosevic time there was sense that the government recognizes and acknowledges (before all politically) what was past, what is today, and what should be in tomorrow for them. Today, they really doesn't know nothing about past, behaves like there is no future, don't have any abstract idea of the future, they live just for this moment, like the future will never come. Remember their slogan: "No other alternative but the European Union"? Without asking people, and totally disregarding any other opinion but theirs.

I know that I'm nuisance but just to illustrate the "political stance" of the democratic governments since 2000:

There was political debate on the TV, worker's union previously had strike because workers were loosing jobs en masse and they complaining that they have no money to pay for the bills, have no money for the kid's school, have no money even for the food. One female representative of the government (bleached hair, pumped up breasts and lips, botoxed face and creepy hollow eyes) said on all of that: "Sure, I understand, if you said so, but look it from the bright side. Before you couldn't go anywhere (US and EU held Serbia in blockade during Milosevic), and now you can have a WEEKEND IN BARCELONA whenever you want". She was serious, not even ironic. That's not sort of sentence that worker who really is hungry and whose kids walks in old worn out shoes and clothes likes to hear.

Alvalsen said:
Avala said:
That is good decision. Pathologicals are on every side, we really cant know what is true. And if I may suggest, if you are in Ukraine stay at home, however happenings on the streets looks interesting you don't want to be there.

Sorry for the post formating, I must have checked something in Opera (or not checked) so everything comes out messy on the forums in recent few days . . .

you can not call it interesting that is happening on our streets
when ordinary people are there mixed with the radicals who seized government buildings, they all become one
and it's like a barrel of honey with a spoon crap (there is an expression)

Well, maybe I wasn't precise enough and I was talking with regard on my experience with such things. It is not nice, good or positive, it really is bad, but when I was younger it was interesting to me, I had a feeling that with my participation in the demonstrations I could change something, that would mean something, something good will come out of all of that. From my stand point now, there is no force that can make me to go out on the street again. It is probably all orchestrated (at least in some degree) and organizers count on the fact that normal people feel urge to do something in situations like those. It would be best if all people could just walk home and wait in silence, that would leave psychopaths without their food.

If nothing else it is too dangerous. Beside pathologicals on each side there is also a fear factor. Person who is not bad in any way, will fight for his/hers life if gets in the state of panic and fear, and everyone on their way could be harmed. Imagine thousands of people in that state of panic and fear. The only thing that provocateurs has to do is to ignite that fear.

@CrimsonEagle

For years I hated Americans, and of course majority of people in Serbia was feeling similar towards Americans. But at the end you learn that American people has nothing to do with the actions of their government and that in a fact they are the victims of psychopaths just as any other nation. Especially in the recent few years. Reading the news on the Sott on behaving of the US police, I really can recognize behavior of Serbian police in the worst years of Milosevic era (official "dictator regime")
Wish you all the best :)



Edit: changed "The only thing that provocateurs HAD to do is to ignite that fear." to "The only thing that provocateurs HAS to do is to ignite that fear."
 
Re: Article about Ukraine

Avala said:
For years I hated Americans, and of course majority of people in Serbia was feeling similar towards Americans. But at the end you learn that American people has nothing to do with the actions of their government and that in a fact they are the victims of psychopaths just as any other nation. Especially in the recent few years. Reading the news on the Sott on behaving of the US police, I really can recognize behavior of Serbian police in the worst years of Milosevic era (official "dictator regime")
Wish you all the best :)

reading this passage of your message, I wanted to make a comment
maybe he will not be on the subject, perhaps what I say, and so everything is clear, but I want to speak

it is believed that Russian and Americans hate each other
ie their worldview supposedly completely different, completely different people

is not
when people treated with certain ideology and then is confronted an impression
many Russian realize that the American people are the same as they did, that they are human and do not want no evil that they imposed an enemy in the form of Russia and Russian
the same is happening in Russia - Americans draw soulless materialists

ere is a difference between the people in what is called mentality
but it is impossible to eradicate humanity in people

just now in Ukraine
protesters try to oppose people with different opinion
but friendly people want a change for the better, but not all see the same this way

I believe people lack tolerance, political tolerance
you should try to understand someone else's point of view, and do not see the enemy in every dissenter

/hope its clear thought was expressed, the language barrier plays a role/
 
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