Revolution in Ukraine: Western-engineered Coup d'État?
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Corvus
Dagobah Resident
Re: Article about Ukraine
The similar situation happened also in my country Croatia as Avala described it. We did not have revolution but after the "independence" banks were sold instantly to french, austrian and italian banks. The interest rates were instantly doubled, tripled in comparison to their home countries. Recently there was a scandal because many people borrowed money in swiss francs years back and the swiss franc raised so they had to return enormously more then they bargained for. Judge made decision for people and against banks on court but now the banks are complaining. It was all orcastrated move by banks because they knew the franc will raise.
All industry was privatised not so much by outsiders but amongst goverment, and machines and equipment sold so people ended on street en masse. Debt kept raising and now it is the biggest in comparison to other former countries in Yugoslavia. Now it stands at about 200 billion dollars and what is funny then before the war they were complaining how the Yugoslavia was so indebted but it debt(for which US was responsible) was only 16 billion dollars(industry was more advanced then in those countries like Italy, Spain and other western countries. Heck, even Sweden borrowed and implemented it s social model. Slovenia and Croatia were the most developed industrialy). And that was all of Yugoslavia, today s 6 countries(or 7 if you call Kosovo a state) and 2 autonomous provinces of Vojvodina and Kosovo. When it all begun people bought propaganda by new goverment if they gain independence that they will become like Switzerland. Now it is real Switzerland for sure, total opposite of it. Energy bills, telecomunication, social services and public transportation kept raising from then and is still because of debt. I remember in late 90 s how the bus ticket was about one dollar and now it is 3 dollars and that is half the price that set protesters in Brasil. Telecomunications being privatised by t-com and other private foreign companies that raise prices as they wish. They were privatised through lobbying as usual because those in power know they would not be there forewer so they grab as much as they can for themselves before next elections. Same with oil industry that was sold in a same way and there was even scandal and footage of prime minister being bribed through text messages on mobile phone and he is know in jail(scapegoat while those that were with him have still political roles, not mentioning that he kept some paintings that were stolen and sold on black market and had very expensive watches he could not afford with his paycheck. Also being bribed to take more expensive contracts of companies then cheaper ones because of deal to share state money with that company later. But like my father says ther are many more prime ministers like this walking free). Shipping industry is destroyed because it iwas rival to european. All the hotels on the Adriatic coast sold to Germans and other foreigners, and some islands. And even bigger catch is to come it seems when we are now in EU. Many industries were destroyed even prior to EU but this small measure of native industry that was left will be surley destroyed with eu cheaper goods and unlimited privatisation. There are valuable natural resources left like clean ground water and tourism is probably a next target. One day you will come to beach or island and some foreigner, German or other will tell you Nein, nein this is mine in your own country, that is if you will even have money to get to the sea if from mainland. Now there is a fuss about monetization of highways. Landscape is rich but poorly used and goverment keeps buying cheaper foreign agro products while native producers are to expensive, of course because goverment does nothing to support them financially so the price would not be so high if it did like big eu countries do. Another deal with those western companies for sure. Sad thing is people know all that through some media that covered many political scandals and life experience but they are all more or less passive. Just keeps you wondering when food shortages come from what they will feed population. No agriculture, all gold reserves sold but they keep buying pate in tons like that will be enough. I have to admit that I laughed after hearing that and had no doubt anymore they are all psychos.
And when it comes to democracy when there was a referendum for EU, goverment implemented law that if there was 51 percent of voters that said yes it passed. There were 43 percent of voters that went to vote and from that 66 voted yes and 33 no(I being one of them and only time I went to vote). So here you have very democratic process in which not even 1/4 of population said yes. Funny thing was that both governing and opossition parties were very consolidated and united when it came to EU membership. How would they not be because when I did some math and take into account that EU is attractive to those politican from poorer countries because pay is big when converted in native currency. I calculated that for one year of "work" in EU birocracy when pay in euros is converted in native currency their year salary is somewhat more that 1 million in native curency. Millioners in one year in other words. And of course that both parties got their seat there. And it seems people that voted yes did not learn anything from previous manipulations because they thought EU will be all milk and honey, but now they are realising that it is not. I knew it will happen and even had a seminar about it on my college about what will exactly happen. My father is still bitter and nevr forgot break up of Yugoslavia and says I do not have any country anymore, my country has gone long ago and the people got what they wanted and asked for. He is in a way right but I do not even care about things happening as they do in usual way, nothing can be done anymore, it is not my problem - look on myself and those close ones and those that see things as they are.
Having hope where there is no ground to having it is I think deluding yourself. Things won t get better for Ukraine or any other country but will get much, much worse. If there was any hope we would not be in this mess in the first place. But in this stage of game it does not really matter because one more demon before coming hell does not make much difference.
It reminded me of event I had on college when one professor said how now things are much better then in medieval times because then you could not travel as a serf. I said but if you do not have money today you also can not travel. He was silent for a moment and said if you think that way you have nothing to do here. It was funny in a way because his construct was proven wrong and he did not took it lightly.
I think it is quite of opposite because it will give way to independence, that is some parts gaining independence. In Yugoslavia in federal constitution there was a right for every country to split if wanted and based on that many countries based they right for independence. It is all calculated from outside because they know where it all leads.
It seems they used cunning tactics learned from Putin in Russia that used it in a same way. Recruting hooligans to do the job of goverment and in that way having their hands look clean for world public in a way.
Are all of those beatings by goverment done by berkut, (correct me if I am wrong but are they not special police unit recruited from ex paratroopers and marines, going back from soviet OMOH, today s special riot police in Russia) or by ordinary police also? I am interested because most of atroceties are done by the special police units and russian OMOH was also involved in massacres in Chechnya.
The similar situation happened also in my country Croatia as Avala described it. We did not have revolution but after the "independence" banks were sold instantly to french, austrian and italian banks. The interest rates were instantly doubled, tripled in comparison to their home countries. Recently there was a scandal because many people borrowed money in swiss francs years back and the swiss franc raised so they had to return enormously more then they bargained for. Judge made decision for people and against banks on court but now the banks are complaining. It was all orcastrated move by banks because they knew the franc will raise.
All industry was privatised not so much by outsiders but amongst goverment, and machines and equipment sold so people ended on street en masse. Debt kept raising and now it is the biggest in comparison to other former countries in Yugoslavia. Now it stands at about 200 billion dollars and what is funny then before the war they were complaining how the Yugoslavia was so indebted but it debt(for which US was responsible) was only 16 billion dollars(industry was more advanced then in those countries like Italy, Spain and other western countries. Heck, even Sweden borrowed and implemented it s social model. Slovenia and Croatia were the most developed industrialy). And that was all of Yugoslavia, today s 6 countries(or 7 if you call Kosovo a state) and 2 autonomous provinces of Vojvodina and Kosovo. When it all begun people bought propaganda by new goverment if they gain independence that they will become like Switzerland. Now it is real Switzerland for sure, total opposite of it. Energy bills, telecomunication, social services and public transportation kept raising from then and is still because of debt. I remember in late 90 s how the bus ticket was about one dollar and now it is 3 dollars and that is half the price that set protesters in Brasil. Telecomunications being privatised by t-com and other private foreign companies that raise prices as they wish. They were privatised through lobbying as usual because those in power know they would not be there forewer so they grab as much as they can for themselves before next elections. Same with oil industry that was sold in a same way and there was even scandal and footage of prime minister being bribed through text messages on mobile phone and he is know in jail(scapegoat while those that were with him have still political roles, not mentioning that he kept some paintings that were stolen and sold on black market and had very expensive watches he could not afford with his paycheck. Also being bribed to take more expensive contracts of companies then cheaper ones because of deal to share state money with that company later. But like my father says ther are many more prime ministers like this walking free). Shipping industry is destroyed because it iwas rival to european. All the hotels on the Adriatic coast sold to Germans and other foreigners, and some islands. And even bigger catch is to come it seems when we are now in EU. Many industries were destroyed even prior to EU but this small measure of native industry that was left will be surley destroyed with eu cheaper goods and unlimited privatisation. There are valuable natural resources left like clean ground water and tourism is probably a next target. One day you will come to beach or island and some foreigner, German or other will tell you Nein, nein this is mine in your own country, that is if you will even have money to get to the sea if from mainland. Now there is a fuss about monetization of highways. Landscape is rich but poorly used and goverment keeps buying cheaper foreign agro products while native producers are to expensive, of course because goverment does nothing to support them financially so the price would not be so high if it did like big eu countries do. Another deal with those western companies for sure. Sad thing is people know all that through some media that covered many political scandals and life experience but they are all more or less passive. Just keeps you wondering when food shortages come from what they will feed population. No agriculture, all gold reserves sold but they keep buying pate in tons like that will be enough. I have to admit that I laughed after hearing that and had no doubt anymore they are all psychos.
And when it comes to democracy when there was a referendum for EU, goverment implemented law that if there was 51 percent of voters that said yes it passed. There were 43 percent of voters that went to vote and from that 66 voted yes and 33 no(I being one of them and only time I went to vote). So here you have very democratic process in which not even 1/4 of population said yes. Funny thing was that both governing and opossition parties were very consolidated and united when it came to EU membership. How would they not be because when I did some math and take into account that EU is attractive to those politican from poorer countries because pay is big when converted in native currency. I calculated that for one year of "work" in EU birocracy when pay in euros is converted in native currency their year salary is somewhat more that 1 million in native curency. Millioners in one year in other words. And of course that both parties got their seat there. And it seems people that voted yes did not learn anything from previous manipulations because they thought EU will be all milk and honey, but now they are realising that it is not. I knew it will happen and even had a seminar about it on my college about what will exactly happen. My father is still bitter and nevr forgot break up of Yugoslavia and says I do not have any country anymore, my country has gone long ago and the people got what they wanted and asked for. He is in a way right but I do not even care about things happening as they do in usual way, nothing can be done anymore, it is not my problem - look on myself and those close ones and those that see things as they are.
Having hope where there is no ground to having it is I think deluding yourself. Things won t get better for Ukraine or any other country but will get much, much worse. If there was any hope we would not be in this mess in the first place. But in this stage of game it does not really matter because one more demon before coming hell does not make much difference.
It reminded me of event I had on college when one professor said how now things are much better then in medieval times because then you could not travel as a serf. I said but if you do not have money today you also can not travel. He was silent for a moment and said if you think that way you have nothing to do here. It was funny in a way because his construct was proven wrong and he did not took it lightly.
I think it is quite of opposite because it will give way to independence, that is some parts gaining independence. In Yugoslavia in federal constitution there was a right for every country to split if wanted and based on that many countries based they right for independence. It is all calculated from outside because they know where it all leads.
It seems they used cunning tactics learned from Putin in Russia that used it in a same way. Recruting hooligans to do the job of goverment and in that way having their hands look clean for world public in a way.
Are all of those beatings by goverment done by berkut, (correct me if I am wrong but are they not special police unit recruited from ex paratroopers and marines, going back from soviet OMOH, today s special riot police in Russia) or by ordinary police also? I am interested because most of atroceties are done by the special police units and russian OMOH was also involved in massacres in Chechnya.
Alvalsen
Jedi
Re: Article about Ukraine
But, in fact, very difficult to understand the situation. Can not trust anyone. Because what is happening like places staging film. There is no certainty that some people in uniform Bercut could not be there
Media support version that did BerkutCorvinus said:
But, in fact, very difficult to understand the situation. Can not trust anyone. Because what is happening like places staging film. There is no certainty that some people in uniform Bercut could not be there
Corvus
Dagobah Resident
Re: Article about Ukraine
Ok, thanks. Either way from videos I saw on youtube they are brainless thugs paid to to what they are best of doing: beating people up, like in every country while in numbers with batoons and behind badge as usual. In USA you will get killed and in eastern countries they will beat the hell out of you.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2h-45si-9oM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmtkFXJMDI8
Ok, thanks. Either way from videos I saw on youtube they are brainless thugs paid to to what they are best of doing: beating people up, like in every country while in numbers with batoons and behind badge as usual. In USA you will get killed and in eastern countries they will beat the hell out of you.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2h-45si-9oM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmtkFXJMDI8
l apprenti de forgeron
The Living Force
Re: Article about Ukraine
Well, what you put there leads me to say what I feel and desire: a clear social battle. Demarcated and all sides recognizing where they are and why, that everybody acting with defined purposes. No "good" vs. "bad" but groups with clear conflicting interests, without masks. But probably this is childish. And all this is terribly complicated, also because people itself is fragmented within and mechanized. The complex of the ptb can not be ignored, should be studied to not act like a fool. The horrible thing is that people believe that removing political front men of the great powers, something will change. And it is not true. It will change the appearance. The politician are managers of some "plots" not the heads of the pyramid, and no exist national sovereignty anywhere. The rulers are not presented for election, and those who report and want something different, are killed as Chavez.
Thinking of the popular rebellions also must not think on infantilism only in a pathologically way. If the majority are emotional children, there is hope that blame their leaders (hopefully also know about the rules in international levels), when comets trigger planetary phenomena which bring death and chaos. That idea would be healthier than the "rational and progressive" one that corruption has nothing to do with natural disasters.
Thanks for enriching the thread, Avala.Avala said:
Well, what you put there leads me to say what I feel and desire: a clear social battle. Demarcated and all sides recognizing where they are and why, that everybody acting with defined purposes. No "good" vs. "bad" but groups with clear conflicting interests, without masks. But probably this is childish. And all this is terribly complicated, also because people itself is fragmented within and mechanized. The complex of the ptb can not be ignored, should be studied to not act like a fool. The horrible thing is that people believe that removing political front men of the great powers, something will change. And it is not true. It will change the appearance. The politician are managers of some "plots" not the heads of the pyramid, and no exist national sovereignty anywhere. The rulers are not presented for election, and those who report and want something different, are killed as Chavez.
Thinking of the popular rebellions also must not think on infantilism only in a pathologically way. If the majority are emotional children, there is hope that blame their leaders (hopefully also know about the rules in international levels), when comets trigger planetary phenomena which bring death and chaos. That idea would be healthier than the "rational and progressive" one that corruption has nothing to do with natural disasters.
l apprenti de forgeron
The Living Force
Re: Article about Ukraine
It is interesting to think that this type of moves like infiltrate social movements through NGO in several countries, is first made in USA, against their people. When the elite saw that most Americans were democratic and anti-war, but not quite organized yet, they infiltrated movements (Hippies, Black Panthers, etc.), and through the media, darwinian academia and political parties managed to wash head to all that neoliberalism (the "war of all against all") is the nature of human beings, trampling cooperativism and accentuating an imperialist nationalism. A "nation" that really represents only a few, very few!Avala said:
Re: Article about Ukraine
Same here. BiH is interesting, they have relatively low debt (7 billion dollars) but outrageous unemployment ~ 45%.
You didn't have to translate, there are already articles about that on sott page:
http://www.sott.net/article/273440
http://www.sott.net/article/273463
Corvinus said:
Same here. BiH is interesting, they have relatively low debt (7 billion dollars) but outrageous unemployment ~ 45%.
Alvalsen said:
You didn't have to translate, there are already articles about that on sott page:
http://www.sott.net/article/273440
http://www.sott.net/article/273463
Corvus
Dagobah Resident
Re: Article about Ukraine
Think that some factors as smaller population and strong native currency(thanks to west) play a role. One euro is equal to 2 converitble marks, so it helps a lot with a debt. But it seems that situation is getting serious there with goverment buildings burnt or burning in recent days in some major cities and people having demands to end corruption, smaller wages for politicians, end of their legal imunity, active economic policy, etc... and some demands are asking for end of national, ethnic and religious hatred spread by their goverments - at least that is what is said.
Think that some factors as smaller population and strong native currency(thanks to west) play a role. One euro is equal to 2 converitble marks, so it helps a lot with a debt. But it seems that situation is getting serious there with goverment buildings burnt or burning in recent days in some major cities and people having demands to end corruption, smaller wages for politicians, end of their legal imunity, active economic policy, etc... and some demands are asking for end of national, ethnic and religious hatred spread by their goverments - at least that is what is said.
Lumiere_du_Code
Jedi Council Member
Re: Article about Ukraine
and the world turns a blind eye, the notorious EU and the U.S. with their vaunted democracy, but let the world compel attention to the other nonsense
and the world turns a blind eye, the notorious EU and the U.S. with their vaunted democracy, but let the world compel attention to the other nonsense
l apprenti de forgeron
The Living Force
Re: Article about Ukraine
Ukrainian protesters are also now returns a mirror image, as they did before with the police, for these real traitors to the people and the nation as Arseny Yatsenyuk, Vitaly Klitschko and Oleg Tiagnibok (the latter two appear as bombs that could explode in any direction and so Nuland wants them away).
How good is this conversation between U.S. Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland and the U.S. ambassador to Ukraine, to see how act in real time these "diplomatics" humanoids criminals.Persej said:
Ukrainian protesters are also now returns a mirror image, as they did before with the police, for these real traitors to the people and the nation as Arseny Yatsenyuk, Vitaly Klitschko and Oleg Tiagnibok (the latter two appear as bombs that could explode in any direction and so Nuland wants them away).
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