Role of Russia

Keit said:
As I also agree that we shouldn't waste any more time and energy on this, just will reiterate the point for your, Antony, sake, in case there is a small chance that you are sincere. ...

Also please understand that it isn't a rejection and not the end of the world, just an invitation to participate on the forum not under a cloak of "I know better" and "let waste a lot of energy on the issue, because I know I am right", but as someone who's willing to network in a sincere and balanced manner. We have a lot of brilliant and professional people here, and non of them puts up such hot airs. Just a suggestion.

I agree, enough time has been wasted on Antony. He has shown no ability to think critically about his own thinking or express the least amount of doubt concerning his opinions. Right-man syndrome, self-importance, arrogance. Either he truly cannot see himself, or he refuses to consider or admit he is wrong for some other reason. That usually means that a person is either fully emotionally invested in their opinion (e.g., because of their profession), or simply repeating the opinion they are paid to repeat (e.g., Hasbara).
 
Aragorn said:
I found an interesting piece of information regarding the Swedish submarine hunt that has been going on for decades. The source is a guy called Ola Tunander. Not surprisingly, it seems like the PSYOP for demonizing Russia in Sweden goes way back. There also seems to be a link to the assassination of Olof Palme (because he tried to oppose these forces).

Wrote a Sott Focus on it on Oct. 27th

http://www.sott.net/article/288055-Russian-Sub-in-Sweden-Hysteria-Deliberately-Spread-by-Western-Media-Cold-War-Redux
 
Perceval said:
Aragorn said:
I found an interesting piece of information regarding the Swedish submarine hunt that has been going on for decades. The source is a guy called Ola Tunander. Not surprisingly, it seems like the PSYOP for demonizing Russia in Sweden goes way back. There also seems to be a link to the assassination of Olof Palme (because he tried to oppose these forces).

Wrote a Sott Focus on it on Oct. 27th

http://www.sott.net/article/288055-Russian-Sub-in-Sweden-Hysteria-Deliberately-Spread-by-Western-Media-Cold-War-Redux

The Psyop goal achieved: Poll shows more Swedes in favor of NATO for first time

BzZ98ggCYAAjAL_.jpg:large
 
Approaching Infinity said:
Keit said:
As I also agree that we shouldn't waste any more time and energy on this, just will reiterate the point for your, Antony, sake, in case there is a small chance that you are sincere. ...

Also please understand that it isn't a rejection and not the end of the world, just an invitation to participate on the forum not under a cloak of "I know better" and "let waste a lot of energy on the issue, because I know I am right", but as someone who's willing to network in a sincere and balanced manner. We have a lot of brilliant and professional people here, and non of them puts up such hot airs. Just a suggestion.

I agree, enough time has been wasted on Antony. He has shown no ability to think critically about his own thinking or express the least amount of doubt concerning his opinions. Right-man syndrome, self-importance, arrogance. Either he truly cannot see himself, or he refuses to consider or admit he is wrong for some other reason. That usually means that a person is either fully emotionally invested in their opinion (e.g., because of their profession), or simply repeating the opinion they are paid to repeat (e.g., Hasbara).

A perfect example of the Dunning-Kruger effect (especially poignant given his education abroad - the 'higher' the education the worse the Dunning Kruger effect can manifest).

We are all confident idiots: 'The doorstep to the temple of wisdom is a knowledge of our own ignorance'
[..]
The American author and aphorist William Feather once wrote that being educated means "being able to differentiate between what you know and what you don't." As it turns out, this simple ideal is extremely hard to achieve. Although what we know is often perceptible to us, even the broad outlines of what we don't know are all too often completely invisible. To a great degree, we fail to recognize the frequency and scope of our ignorance.

In 1999, in the Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, my then graduate student Justin Kruger and I published a paper that documented how, in many areas of life, incompetent people do not recognize - scratch that, cannot recognize - just how incompetent they are, a phenomenon that has come to be known as the Dunning-Kruger effect. Logic itself almost demands this lack of self-insight: For poor performers to recognize their ineptitude would require them to possess the very expertise they lack. To know how skilled or unskilled you are at using the rules of grammar, for instance, you must have a good working knowledge of those rules, an impossibility among the incompetent. Poor performers - and we are all poor performers at some things - fail to see the flaws in their thinking or the answers they lack.

What's curious is that, in many cases, incompetence does not leave people disoriented, perplexed, or cautious. Instead, the incompetent are often blessed with an inappropriate confidence, buoyed by something that feels to them like knowledge.
[..]
Because it's so easy to judge the idiocy of others, it may be sorely tempting to think this doesn't apply to you. But the problem of unrecognized ignorance is one that visits us all. And over the years, I've become convinced of one key, overarching fact about the ignorant mind. One should not think of it as uninformed. Rather, one should think of it as misinformed.

An ignorant mind is precisely not a spotless, empty vessel, but one that's filled with the clutter of irrelevant or misleading life experiences, theories, facts, intuitions, strategies, algorithms, heuristics, metaphors, and hunches that regrettably have the look and feel of useful and accurate knowledge. This clutter is an unfortunate by-product of one of our greatest strengths as a species. We are unbridled pattern recognizers and profligate theorizers. Often, our theories are good enough to get us through the day, or at least to an age when we can procreate. But our genius for creative storytelling, combined with our inability to detect our own ignorance, can sometimes lead to situations that are embarrassing, unfortunate, or downright dangerous - especially in a technologically advanced, complex democratic society that occasionally invests mistaken popular beliefs with immense destructive power (See: crisis, financial; war, Iraq). As the humorist Josh Billings once put it, "It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so." (Ironically, one thing many people "know" about this quote is that it was first uttered by Mark Twain or Will Rogers - which just ain't so.)

Because of the way we are built, and because of the way we learn from our environment, we are all engines of misbelief. And the better we understand how our wonderful yet kludge-ridden, Rube Goldberg engine works, the better we - as individuals and as a society - can harness it to navigate toward a more objective understanding of the truth.
[..]
But something curious started happening as we began to look at the people who did extremely badly on our little quiz. By now, you may be able to predict it: These people expressed more, not less, confidence in their performance. In fact, people who got none of the items right often expressed confidence that matched that of the top performers. Indeed, this study produced the most dramatic example of the Dunning-Kruger effect we had ever seen: When looking only at the confidence of people getting 100 percent versus zero percent right, it was often impossible to tell who was in which group.

Why? Because both groups "knew something." They knew there was a rigorous, consistent rule that a person should follow to predict the balls' trajectories.
 
Making this thread I followed several considerations.
First. I perfectly understood that L&A and Team possess an enormous amount of knowledge due to their research and members life experience.
Second. The immense number of issues being discussed here in the forum is beyond my knowledge and that no significant input/discoveries can be made on my part (only passive reading - gaining a "food for a soul").
Third. Came to understanding that getting and keeping inside the knowledge is basically STS function. People need to share for it to become available and mutually beneficial.
Fourth. That question started bothering me for around 15 years, as I began to look around for what is happening inside and outside the country. Russia's position in the world affairs created that dilemma for me. Years passed, views changed from pro. Many events during that period led to this. ( Yes, you may call it 'bias' because of my sphere of interest/activity and a full-heart Love for my country).
Fifth. I saw that Team started to give a tribute to a person, who, imo, does not deserve such a straightforward "plus" rating.
So, basically I decided to finally sort the dilemma out (I believe it is of universal importance) and with the help of Cs get closer to the Truth (not beating around the bushes, like - "best you have at that time").

By doing so, I Never meant to show any disrespect for People to whom I am really grateful for changing my life and are sympathetic to me. Nor I intended to be forcefully мил (nice). If you apprehended my experience doing the work (EE, cold protocol, dieting) described here (I admit that not in the appropriate threads) as an instrument to get a ticket "in" - it is sad.

As i have mentioned, all the factual and analytical material provided here can be checked upon the web. I did not ever say that my assertions - are of Ultimate veracity (истина в последней инстанции) - right from the beginning I invited everyone to a Constructive discussion on the topic.

As far as energy "wasting" is concerned - i do agree. We all have invested a lot of effort in it with a small output of constructive exchange. But it is Great that there was no ignorance (even in passive mode) on such an important issue. What i consider Invaluable as a result for both sides - there is the "Idea" inside - will the whirligig stop in the end? (c) Inception.

P.S. Keit - big thanks to you for being ambassador!
 
Perceval said:
Aragorn said:
I found an interesting piece of information regarding the Swedish submarine hunt that has been going on for decades. The source is a guy called Ola Tunander. Not surprisingly, it seems like the PSYOP for demonizing Russia in Sweden goes way back. There also seems to be a link to the assassination of Olof Palme (because he tried to oppose these forces).

Wrote a Sott Focus on it on Oct. 27th

http://www.sott.net/article/288055-Russian-Sub-in-Sweden-Hysteria-Deliberately-Spread-by-Western-Media-Cold-War-Redux

Ah, I somehow missed that article. Great to see that the information is out there on SOTT, well done! :)
 
[quote author=Antony]
So, basically I decided to finally sort the dilemma out (I believe it is of universal importance) and with the help of Cs get closer to the Truth (not beating around the bushes, like - "best you have at that time").
[/quote]

Why do you consider "best you have at this time" as beating around the bushes? I think the statement that you are referring to depicts reality, rather than indulging in imagination. The flawless perfect politician/leader/teacher/........ image is a product of our imagination. History shows that leaders/teachers who were venerated after their death were reviled by large portions of the population during their life time. So it always has been about the best that could be done by a human being given the circumstances of reality.

To survive as a politician in today's world and try to do some good, one must have specialized skills and cunning. Without that one is toast. One has to take decisions which would not be universally accepted or appreciated. That is just the way things are. This is easy to see for anyone who has been in any position of authority in any organization - or has carefully watched someone in such a position while being aware of the decision making process, the values and considerations driving the decisions and detailed knowledge of potential ramifications coming from any decision .

This does not mean there should not be discussion and criticism of policies and decisions - that is always needed as there is no perfect policy or decision. However, at the end of the day the question to be asked of any leader is "is he/she the best person available and capable to do the job at this moment?" Not being able to see this truth (that one has to make do with the best one has at the moment) can be due to
- lack of relevant life experience along with imaginary ideas about perfection
- a conscious agenda

Or so it seems to me.
 
Obyvatel,
Thanks for your opinion. I was never trying to perfect anyone, especially a leader of that level. No question that deeds done with true STO intent-naturally contradicts our STS environment. Some (the proportion differs on the methods used) would obviously try to torpedo that "policy" and the easiest way to do it, imo, is to demonize the "source".
I would repeat my examples here - two Great Russian leaders, that were belied after their's death - Tzar Ivan Grozny and Stalin. Taking more recent example - Joseph did so much for the majority of the ordinary people, that despite of violent propaganda campaign (started straight away after his death in 1953 by "follower" Khryshev) vigorously continuing today with approval of VVP, has not been able to change yet Stalin's positive perception in the eyes of more than 50% of Russians (people still know where the lie and truth is).
 
Antony said:
Obyvatel,
Thanks for your opinion.

In my opinion this opener is derogatory, disingenuous. It is also my opinion that if you carry on in similar tone, a not very useful outcome there will be.

Imagine you are invited to dinner somewhere and, in discussion, after one of your hosts shares his thoughts with you, you reply with “yes, thanks for your opinion...”! The odds of being invited back a second time would be slim indeed I think! In my opinion it would be better not to speak at all than to take such a tone – if one were truly hungry that is.
 
Antony said:
I would repeat my examples here - two Great Russian leaders, that were belied after their's death - Tzar Ivan Grozny and Stalin. Taking more recent example - Joseph did so much for the majority of the ordinary people, that despite of violent propaganda campaign (started straight away after his death in 1953 by "follower" Khryshev) vigorously continuing today with approval of VVP, has not been able to change yet Stalin's positive perception in the eyes of more than 50% of Russians (people still know where the lie and truth is).

My grandmother was one of seven children. Her family lived near the river Kama, European part of Russia. They were a family of ordinary peasants, hard workers. But they had two cows to feed their large family. According to the law adopted by Joseph Stalin, those who had two cows were considered 'kulaks' - rich peasant-exploiters. And because they had two cows to feed their nine-member family, they were deprived of everything (thier small house, a plot of land and two cows) and sent to Siberia - to die of cold and hunger.

In Siberia, they survived because they all worked very hard and supported each other, but those were absolutely terrible years, when they often had literally nothing to eat. They even didn't have shoes to wear: they had to make their own bast shoes ('lapti'), which were very painful for work. And it was terribly cold in Siberian winter to wear these bast shoes. I'm not even talking about clothes.

Absolutely everything was considered a state property, and every liter of milk, every grain of wheat, must have been transferred to the government. Even if you were dying of hunger, you couldn't eat a single handful of grains, because that entailed capital punishment. My grandmother saw many such cases when people who were dying of hunger were executed only because they took a couple of spikelets of wheat from the government field. Those who tried to criticize such terrorist measures were also immediately executed without any investigation.

This is what Joseph Stalin did to my family and many other ordinary people. Social programs? Freedom of speech? They must have been somewhere else, not in Siberia, for sure.

That said, Joseph Stalin managed to build a powerful empire. Many great infrastructure projects were implemented. A strong army was created. And it all was created at the cost of millions of lives of ordinary people.
 
Alada,
Please forgive my translation problems (it has been almost 15 years as I did not have a proper intensive language practice). I had to use vocabulary several times before I understood your message fully. Niether conscious intent was made to abuse Obyvatel in any way, nor any disingenuous tone was implied.
 
I thought that maybe this info will be of some interest: a new project has just completed on one of Russia's major TV channels: Winter is Coming. It is a series of interviews and reports on today's global problems. It was broadcasted this week on TV, and now all reports and interviews are available at their website in Russian. Here is a short list of some reports:

1) Oliver Stone: "I wanted to understand what is going on in the US."
2) Zakhar Prilepin: "East Ukraine: Russian world?"
3) Yekaterina Zorina: "Warmth debt."
4) Alexander Kareyevsky: "Geo-economics: The West. Apocalypse."
5) Hélène Carrère d’Encausse: "Why Washington wants Iran?"
6) Alexander Khristenko: "Ordinary racism?"
7) Weather 24: "The new Ice Age?"
8) Jonas Lüscher: "What can replace capitalism?"
9) Mikhail Kovalchuk: "Ideas changing our world."
10) Fedor Lukyanov: "Tragedy and farce in today's politics."

There were 30 reports and interviews in total. It was an interesting series, hopefully they will transcribe some of the reports, so that they could be translated.
 
One of Anthony's problems could be that he cannot accept that he is WRONG, which is pretty obvious regarding his opinion of Stalin (let alone Putin). Red herrings like "serving the country" & " a full-heart Love for my country" (I'm soooo moved) reek of false patriotism nicely defined by Saker as "hoorah patriots" at least, politically acceptable as Atlantist henchman in love with Western para-ideals and, in worst case, the 5th column according to Glazyev. It is nice to have such a ingrained "dissident who still believes in demockracy, He certainly is nicely programmed to repeat the same role over and over again...

I am so sorry Anthony but you are totally wrong and all your"knowledge and "expertize won't change this!
 
Yozilla said:
Red herrings like "serving the country" & " a full-heart Love for my country" (I'm soooo moved) reek of false patriotism nicely defined by Saker as "hoorah patriots" at least, politically acceptable as Atlantist henchman in love with Western para-ideals and, in worst case, the 5th column according to Glazyev.

Yes, The Saker, who is not even ethnic Russian by the way, shows a perfect example of truly objective analysis and at the same time loyalty and commitment towards his country. And his terminology is striking indeed, a whole collection for a dictionary already. :)
 
Siberia said:
Antony said:
I would repeat my examples here - two Great Russian leaders, that were belied after their's death - Tzar Ivan Grozny and Stalin. Taking more recent example - Joseph did so much for the majority of the ordinary people, that despite of violent propaganda campaign (started straight away after his death in 1953 by "follower" Khryshev) vigorously continuing today with approval of VVP, has not been able to change yet Stalin's positive perception in the eyes of more than 50% of Russians (people still know where the lie and truth is).

My grandmother was one of seven children. Her family lived near the river Kama, European part of Russia. They were a family of ordinary peasants, hard workers. But they had two cows to feed their large family. According to the law adopted by Joseph Stalin, those who had two cows were considered 'kulaks' - rich peasant-exploiters. And because they had two cows to feed their nine-member family, they were deprived of everything (thier small house, a plot of land and two cows) and sent to Siberia - to die of cold and hunger.

My ancestors from my mother side were an ethnic minority in Siberia after emigrating there in the 19th century. They witnessed first hand Stalin's policies. Leaders were killed, practice of shamanism was prohibited, schools were closed down, radio channels were closed, ethnic cultural activities were forbidden and ethnic books were burned down. They contributed a lot to Siberia, nevertheless they were deported like animals in the trans-Siberian to Uzbekistan and Kazakhstan. They were left in the middle of nowhere in winter time, so there was less or no chances of escaping through the borders. Many people died and some whom survived, did so due to the hospitality of nomadic tribes in the Middle East.

Time went by and people got adapted and incorporated to the Soviet Union back then. It was a hardship after another. Just this last weekend I had the opportunity to talk in Russian with an Armenian couple who were part of the USSR. Although they were not particularly proud or identified with the suffering and hardships gone through the years, they did highlighted that it was actually Russia who had something to say and teach about morals to the world at large today. It was a very interesting talk.

FWIW.
 

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