Role of Russia

s-kur said:
The young families everywhere has credits and they're take seconde ones for paying first. What is the maternity capital? It's totally nothing in such conditions.
Really? I don't think that mr.Putin don't thinks much about commoners OSIT

ADD:
What's behind his-own-country and reputation? I don't know. Maybe i'm wrong

Well, unfortunately it's hard for young couples everywhere around the world, unless they live in super rich countries or have help from their parents and such. In Israel, for example, unless one works in hi-tech and brings home a fat paycheck, both parents have to work in order to cover basic expenses. Everything is very expensive, food, clothing, utilities, not to mention rent. Last year or so there were massive demonstrations on the streets, where people protested worsening social conditions and ever rising prices for everything in this shitty country. So, when my friends at the university here in Belarus start asking me about Israel, and how wonderful it seems to them, I remind them that grass is always greener on the other side, or as the Russian saying goes, we think that "хорошо там, где нас нет".

Well, it isn't true. At least Russia gives an opportunity to study for free. In US, for example, you have to take a heavy credit for studies and then pay for it for over 10 years or more. The bottom line is, we can debate the hardships of living in Russia day and night. I am sure we could make a VERY long list of all the things Putin made wrong, his shortcomings, his oversights, etc. But this is not the point. I am sorry, Antony and s-kur, but you both are missing the point. Perhaps you do need to watch the documentary (and no, it's not done by Michalkov) and see that it's about the big picture, and about being able to SEE what is really going on. But we already spent energy in the earlier posts explaining exactly that, so what's up with not getting it and continuing with the nitpicking?

You say, Antony, that it's not about words but about deeds? I agree with you completely, it just that from where I am sitting, Putin's deeds tell a completely different story.
 
Ascien said:
That guy looked like the headmaster called him out.

Exactly! I don't think I had ever seen a billionaire oligarch look sheepish before!

The 'Give me back my pen' bit was priceless! :lol:
You gotta love the guy...
 
It was a telling illustration of the sense complete entitlement these guys have. It's like breathing to them. Good for Putin calling him on it.
 
Keit said:
At least Russia gives an opportunity to study for free.

I met several Russian kids who came to live to Costa Rica while I was growing up. The recurrent theme was that they didn't have to study for the longest time (as in lots of years) because they saw it already while in Russia. Among the same line, my Russian cousin was shocked to learn how primitive my math lessons were for my age.

This was in the 90s, but after meeting several Russians lately, I have the impression this still applies. Education is way better over there for people in general.
 
Patience said:
I was noticing a few of the Putin doubters on this thread, and a common point between them is the details one can use to nitpick at him. One thing I would ask them to keep in mind when trying to analyze this situation is that JFK could and has been nitpicked to death, but it is entirely impossible to deny the fact that he wrote a decree that outlined the withdrawal of American forces from Vietnam before it ever got to the point that LBJ and Nixon brought it to.

My point is that anyone who manages to make it to a role of political power in this world probably has various points in their history, or at least points about those supporting him, that one can use to choose to nullify what they are doing NOW. We have plenty of evidence to believe that Putin is a public face and strategic mind in an attempt to change the worldwide power structure and quite possibly in a positive way.

If I have any lingering doubts, they are more in line with the idea that true globalists are trying to control the process of the American dollar losing international reserve status. That is, they don't want their cattle pens to go up in a poof of nuclear smoke AND they want to have control over the new world. So if Putin and the pole he represents pull this sort of coup off, the challenge of preventing the "new boss same as the old boss" phenomenon from repeating itself will be every bit as intense as the current struggle.

I have noticed that too. Maybe those doubters are looking for a saint like figure. Politics is nowadays a dirty business and he plays that game the best he can SOIT.
 
Gaby said:
Keit said:
At least Russia gives an opportunity to study for free.

I met several Russian kids who came to live to Costa Rica while I was growing up. The recurrent theme was that they didn't have to study for the longest time (as in lots of years) because they saw it already while in Russia. Among the same line, my Russian cousin was shocked to learn how primitive my math lessons were for my age.

This was in the 90s, but after meeting several Russians lately, I have the impression this still applies. Education is way better over there for people in general.

Indeed. The education in Russia is all-encompassing and provides knowledge to pupils about many aspects of the world and not only about how to be perfect society consumers. I'm very grateful to my school teachers for that.
 
Eric said:
Patience said:
I was noticing a few of the Putin doubters on this thread, and a common point between them is the details one can use to nitpick at him. One thing I would ask them to keep in mind when trying to analyze this situation is that JFK could and has been nitpicked to death, but it is entirely impossible to deny the fact that he wrote a decree that outlined the withdrawal of American forces from Vietnam before it ever got to the point that LBJ and Nixon brought it to.

My point is that anyone who manages to make it to a role of political power in this world probably has various points in their history, or at least points about those supporting him, that one can use to choose to nullify what they are doing NOW. We have plenty of evidence to believe that Putin is a public face and strategic mind in an attempt to change the worldwide power structure and quite possibly in a positive way.

If I have any lingering doubts, they are more in line with the idea that true globalists are trying to control the process of the American dollar losing international reserve status. That is, they don't want their cattle pens to go up in a poof of nuclear smoke AND they want to have control over the new world. So if Putin and the pole he represents pull this sort of coup off, the challenge of preventing the "new boss same as the old boss" phenomenon from repeating itself will be every bit as intense as the current struggle.

I have noticed that too. Maybe those doubters are looking for a saint like figure. Politics is nowadays a dirty business and he plays that game the best he can SOIT.

A lot of black-and-white thinking and apparent feelings of social displacement/feelings of entitlement.
 
Those Putin doubters here on forum are not always seeing world black and white or got brainwashed elsewhere and came here to indoctrinate other members. They can be just honest in saying their opinions based on their experiences. Russia is very different in different regions. Go to Moscow and you'll see huge amounts of money spent on parks, fountains and bicycle roads. People's salaries are probably the highest in the county. Go to some poor region and picture turns upside down. Some people may have no problems going two times a year to Thailand, some may strive to stay alive. And as I can tell by my own experience it's not oligarchs with their yachts and palaces who upset people but unfair distribution of resources. When country has enough money to feed and clothe its people but instead it waste it on Olympics and unreal projects which fail shortly some people start to ask questions: "Why are they doing this? Do they really care about their own people?"
Well some may tell, "If you need money, create your own business". And here lies a problem again. There are virtually no help from government for small and medium business projects. To stay profitable many small companies are forced to keep double accounting. Taxes are sky high and authority backed concurrents are here too. Farmers are constantly forced to decimate its cattle because of new viruses found by authorities, they are restricted on selling their wheat crop only in home region which automatically leads to a monopoly by local buying company owned by governor's family members or friends.
Another part of this story is an absence of justice. Everyone knows that authorities are corrupted, but when some bureaucrat got caught by his hand with a huge pile of money in it, you may be absolutely sure that he'll be fine and the court will acquit him. Rare exceptions to this rule are cases when accused has crossed the road to wrong people.
Putin may the best ruler on Earth today but his power based on corruption and mutual responsibility and it's gone too far. That's what upset people.
Please don't advise people to find a better place to live if they don't like how it's going in their home. Everyone has the right to fight for his freedoms or at least trying to figure out how to change things to better.
 
Laura said:
A lot of black-and-white thinking and apparent feelings of social displacement/feelings of entitlement.

The above actually reminded me of something else. Right after I came to Belarus I heard from various people that they didn't like Russians, or at least some of them. I was very surprised, because after all, Slavs are all related, brothers and sisters. They agreed, but said that some of the Russians that come to Belarus are rude and have a sense of entitlement. And that on one hand they enjoy Belorussian hospitality, politeness and openness, and on the other accuse them of being a nation with "slave mentality" for not standing up to Lukashenko.*

*(This statement is based on the fact, that Belorussians are known for their patience and silent suffering in case of hardships, and if they do stand up, they don't go out to the streets, but directly to the forests and become partisans, as it happened during WWII.)

On the other hand, and for the fairness sake, there were also those, who said that despite Belarus being poorer than Russia, things were better here, and streets are always super clean.

The city where I live organizes an annual music festival in the summer, and a lot of Russians are coming here for the holidays. I haven't noticed any particularly rude behavior, but after a time you can see the difference and can spot who is Russian fairy easily. It's especially noticeable at stores, where they make sure to stock up on Belorussian produce, which is much cheaper and better than in Russia. I guess, that's the price one has to pay for living in a very big country. There are so many people to feed!

The point is, no one says that what ever happens in Russia is ok, not at all. I think that unless a foreigner will spend a year in Russia (or in Belarus) and will live through the periodic hot water cut offs (that happen at least twice a year for couple of weeks or more each time) or no water at all for some time, heat cut offs in winder, electricity cut offs, other similar disruptions, they can't really understand Russians or what ever contributes to their mentality.

But then, there are all kind of people, and they can look at the same situation but see something completely different, and Russians are no different, even if in my personal opinion there are many Russian ideals that are worthwhile of developing. And that's what perplexed me about Putin, that he spoke in a way no other politician in the world spoke. Among all the filth, incompetency and degradation there was this no BS person who was on a completely different level.

There is no doubt that he is well trained in oratory arts, but that is expected from the self-respecting politician. Just take a look at Lavrov, the number one diplomat in Russia to see how he carries himself to understand how it is supposed to be. And then remember US or UK politicians. It's the incompetence that is so vivid, and it's the professionalism that impresses the most in Putin's team. That's why it's so surprising that the so called "Russian intelligentsia" is so against him. Unless he reminds them of their own moral depravity. After all, they are well fed and are not living in poor regions, so this feeling of entitlement is actually infuriating.

In any case, right now there is a wide anti-Putin campaign going on on the web and in the world. And they couldn't think about anything more sophisticated than making the following T-shirts.
_https://twitter.com/chitinews/status/498452383211327488/photo/1
I won't translate the second word (you can look it up yourself), but I can assure you it isn't flattering. Well, that's their level. And now, see the following interview with Putin to understand his level. A good leader is supposed to be an inspiration, and frankly, it's much better to follow him than those that make the above shirts. As for him having dirty spots in his career, seriously, just watch the second part of the 5th part of "Unknown Putin" before making any assumptions. I think it paints a pretty clear picture.

Here's the video.

 
Antony said:
Kniall - Yes, the country has indeed changed, but only from the "shop-front" (витрина). The oil/gas revenues led to the big expenditures for non-productive, non-innovative projects which are supposed to be a locomotive of the economy. Yes we have a boom in housing building (the prices though are among the highest in the world (Moscow and all the major regional cities - миллионики) and unaffordable even to middle class- mortgage and credit rates are at best 15-20%).

It is naive to expect that after almost total collapse in the 90s, Russia could turn into innovative country within 15 years, don't you think? In this respect I agree with Gennady Zyuganov, leader of Russia's communist party, saying that before any innovations we should first restore our basic industries. You simply cannot jump from level 1 to level 3, you have to build the basis first.

You say about the "boom in housing building". And it really is: enormous amount of newly-built housing. But isn't this the obvious fact of rapidly developing economy? Construction makes a huge part of our economy now. And the fact that oil and gas industry still comprises the major part of our revenues doesn't mean other sectors are NOT developing, it only means that BOTH oil and gas sector AND other sectors are developing simultaneously.

As for the "major cities", I live in one of them. Novosibirsk is he 3rd largest city in the country. Here is the photo of the district where I live.

0_7c88c_ac074886_orig


ALL these houses were built within the latest 3 (maximum 5) years. As you can also see, not only houses are being built, but also new modern schools and kindergartens, which is also government expenditure. For example, in my district, part of which you can see on the picture above, two new kindergartens were built this year. Also, this year two other kindergartens were transformed from the private property into the state property. Is it not development?

As for the fact that these apartments are "unaffordable even for middle-class".. Well, I can tell you that about 80-90% of the residents of these apartments (on the picture above) are young families with children, including yours truly. As I have already mentioned, we have a Mother's Capital program in Russia. Every family who gives birth to a second, third, etc. child receives a lump-sum payment of $ 12,000. It may not sound much in dollars, but in Russian rubles it is 429,408. For this money you can buy such car as Chevrolet or Renault in basic complectation, for example. It is a very good money. Notice, that EVERY family in Russia receives this money for a second (and next) child. Now just imagine, how much money it comprises for the national budget expenditures! Millions of Renaults and Chevrolets. Is this not a good social program? Did we have anything like this in the 90s?

No wonder that, for example, in the department where I work 2/3 of women are on their maternity leaves now. Maternity leaves, as I have already mentioned, are 3-year long with 1,5 years paid. This is also a very good social program. Not many countries actually provide such opportunities. The result of these social programs is that in 2013, for the first time since the collapse of the USSR, the number of new-born babies exceeded the number of deaths. The number of deaths in Russia is also decreasing significantly, by the way, but that is a separate topic, I'll cover it later, if needed.

Let's get back to "unaffordable appartments". Besides the Mother's Capital program, we have a very significant tax deduction program in Russia. EVERY citizen in Russia has this right: when you sell or purchase an apartment, you are entitled to have a significant amount (13%) of money returned to you. Since 2014, both husband and wife can receive it for the same apartment. For example, if your apartment costs RUB 4.5 m, each husband and wife receives RUB 260,000. That's RUB 520,000 in total. Add here the Mother's capital, and you have almost 1 million rubles from the government.

But this is not all. In our region we have a Young Family subsidy program. And the amount of this subsidy is.. 40% of the apartment cost! So, if you are a young family with two or more children, then your RUB 4,5 m apartment is 40% covered by this regional subsidy plus RUB 1 m from the federal government. All the rest money (about RUB 1 m) you can either earn or borrow, but this doesn't necessarily must be a mortgage, because the rest amount is not extremely big.

Btw, RUB 4,5 m apartment is actually a very good one in Novosibirsk: 3 rooms (plus kitchen) in a new house. If you cannot afford it for some reasons, you can always choose a smaller one. :)

All these programs already greatly contribute to the fundamental changes in Russian economic and social development. Later I will describe other measures of our government, so that to make it clear what has actually changed in Russia.
 
clerck de bonk said:
Laura said:
Holy frijoles! That's AWESOME!

Indeed. The "give me back my pen"-part was truly classic :lol:
Classic Putin!!!!. Rare politician in these dark times. So conscious when asked to return saying "my pen" :lol:.
 
Keit said:
Laura said:
I even wonder if the presence of the camera wasn't more to record the event for the sake of ensuring compliance on the part of those oligarchs? That way, they couldn't go out and about and tell lies about the meeting. I expect he has a LOT of video footage about similar things just for insurance.

Well, what I noticed, that when it comes to oil and gas companies that are partially owned by the Russian government (and maybe other companies as well, don't know), from time to time, especially before big projects Putin organizes reporting events on the TV, where he sits and directors of all the regions and districts report to him. If they can't be present, then they report over the TV link. He asks clarifying questions if needed, etc. And it's all done online.

The same model is used by the Russian Emergencies Ministry during any emergency event or a disaster. The supervisor is sitting in the center and all the reports are being given to him over the phone, TV, etc, and it's all being done online. Maybe Siberia or others from Russia can describe this mode of operation better.

In any case, don't know if other countries do the same with companies, but when I first saw it, I thought that it was a good way of keeping everyone on their tows.
I saw couple( unfortunately only few) of politicians did it in India. What I have in mind is this guy Naidu. When he became chief minister of the state in palace coup in 90's (he was a typical political crook before that with absolutely no name for him self except son-in-law of Most popular and powerful man of the state). he started this instant justice system. It is a system over the phone/ TV and All the officials are confronted instantly on live and periodic ( weekly, I think) live calls with common man. One way, These are blissful events for common man who starved for some meaningful honesty in political system which disappeared with "MK Gandhi"/Nehru era. It went with educating common with with sanitation, encouraging them to standup to the corruption etc.

His reforms later lead to imitation by Current Indian PM Modi (in his state of Gujarat) which spiraled him to current designation mainly fulled by middle class optimism for repeat performance at national level. The same thing is imitated by later chief minister of Naidu's rival party in his state, as if it is a political survival mechanism.

Whatever the background or motives and ENORMICITY of the situation, It does indeed made the huge change in positive direction.
 
aimarok and Anthony, I hear what you are saying but you are not hearing what others are saying. It seems that your understanding of how close Russia was to total collapse and chaos and how difficult it is to stop such a process is rather naive if not childish.

Let me give you a sort of example: John Kennedy could not have been elected president of the US if his father had not bought off the Mafia. However, once he was president, he began to deal with the oligarchs and corruption in direct ways. Obviously, the mafia felt that he had screwed them over. Look what happened to him.

I would suggest that Putin is very aware of the parameters within which he has to work. But you are not. He is also aware that it will take a long time and careful, patient moving of pieces into place to do what needs to be done.

You seem to want him to "prove himself" by instantly and totally revamping the whole system and making everything warm and fuzzy for everybody. That simply isn't possible considering the ramified network of pathologicals he has to deal with.

You both (and others) need to read "Political Ponerology", study history, and come to a fuller knowledge of how things are, how things work, what is and is not possible within what conditions, and give the man the credit due. He has done an AMAZING job considering what he has to work with and the enormous forces lined up against him. John Kennedy wasn't fully aware of just how evil the oligarchs are; Putin is and he is treading carefully and working patiently and playing his cards close to the chest. It can't be any other way.
 
s-kur said:
Yes, your told about better situation relatively EU, US, USSR, you'r right, there are more night fires on the streets , more shops, more services for consuming, okay. Nut why my father works on the fleet about 30 years, now he is 67 and he is still works and have pension about 350$ monthly but the cost of utilities is 300$ in winter. It's okay? I'm buy the good meat for 11$\kg, 10 eggs for 2,5$ and people buy bread for 1,3$ . It's normal? I don't think so. I'm rent the room for 400$ monthly and i think i'll never have my own flat because here i'm alone and i don't want to take a mortgage and 10 years to be a slave.

I don't think your situation is normal either. When you see the quantity of resources and wealth created by humanity, every human being could and should live a decent live. All is needed is more equality in the distribution of the above-mentioned resources.

This being said a big country can't change overnight. In 1990, Russia had virtually collapsed and rebuilding it will take years if not decades. So the questions to be asked are: "during Putin's mandate did the living condition of normal people consistently improve?". "What was your living condition in beginning of the 90's compared to now?"
 
Pierre said:
This being said a big country can't change overnight. In 1990, Russia had virtually collapsed and rebuilding it will take years if not decades. So the questions to be asked are: "during Putin's mandate did the living condition of normal people consistently improve?". "What was your living condition in beginning of the 90's compared to now?"

Not only that, but what are you doing to help yourself and the process?

A social-psychology expert friend of mine sent me a book about six months ago, the title of which is: "The Slave Soul of Russia: Moral Masochism and the Cult of Suffering"
http://www.amazon.com/The-Slave-Soul-Russia-Masochism/dp/0814774822

I haven't read it and it was sent to me as an example of French freudian nonsense which was an ongoing discussion between myself and this expert. Anyway, I haven't read the book yet because the title put me off; it seemed rather judgmental and not taking history into account. Nevertheless, take a look at a part of the book blurb:

Bringing to light dozens of examples of self-defeating activities and behaviors that have become an integral component of the Russian psyche, Rancour-Laferriere convincingly illustrates how masochism has become a fact of everyday life in Russia. Until now, much attention has been paid to the psychology of Russia's leaders and their impact on the country's condition. Here, for the first time, is a compelling portrait of the Russian people's psychology.

If that is even partly true, how the hell do you expect Putin to fix that?

On the other side, a reviewer of the book, who I suspect I will agree with if I ever get around to reading it, writes:

While doing his "psychoanalysis" the author preys on 2 features of Americans: their love of psychoanalysis and their ignorance of the world history.

Bibliography is impressive and long, but science is not only the reference list, but actually painstakingly exploring the unknown and conscientiously drawing conclusions from the data collected. This author seems to have had his mind pre-set from the very beginning and tried hard to cram all the largesse of information he amassed into his Procrustean conclusion. Limbs of truth are a-flying...

There are many "authentically Russian phenomena" in the book with analogies throughout the world history which this obviously very educated author omits to mention. Example: he extrapolates corporal mortification of SOME Russian medieval monks upon all Russian people NOW, also adding "the bathhouse flagellation cult" (a primitive sauna massage technique enhancing blood circulation by slapping yourself with birch branches bearing large round leaves, so the surface touching you /leaves/ is flat and can do no damage to the skin).

He forgets to mention though that corporal mortification was common in Catholicism, and even nowadays there are organizations ("Opus Dei", for one), in the United States included, which practice very real corporal mortification. These organizations with ultra-radical participants always existed in history, but the bulk of population never belonged to them.

The way the "cultural background" of many Russian proverbs is "analyzed" can be depicted by another Russian proverb: "/He/ heard the bells toll, but does not have a clue as to where the sound is coming from" - "slyshal zvon, da ne znaet, gde on". Each proverb has its time of birth, death and its frequency of usage in the language. To analyze them as a reflection of anything at all, the author would have needed to date them and see if they're actually used in the language now - and what percentage they make in the bulk of proverbs collected to date (their historical frequency). One might also look into possible existence of same or similar proverbs in other languages to be able to draw a correct conclusion if the social phenomenon they reflect is specific to this nation or international. You will not find frequency or cross-analysis of proverbs here. You will find analyzing proverbs born in middle ages and dead nowadays with (surprise!) a conclusion about "the slave soul" now...

2 blunders. (1) the cover - of all the vast number of paintings by Russian artists the author actually picked the painting (by the famous Russian artist Sourikov) depicting maybe THE most rebellious and independent-minded woman in all Russian history, the Princess Morozova, a lady belonging to the top of Russian XVII century nobility who was outrageously rich and prominent in the society and who laid down everything - her fortune, the highest status she had by birth and marriage, her serfs and properties - for the right to believe in God as she thought was right. She died for this right; she was starved to death in a pit. "Give me my freedom or give me my death", correct? This painting for "The Slave Soul..."? Of course, how many Americans know this painting and will notice? I do not know if this was a pure blunder or a design, but I as a reader feel my intelligence is insulted here.

The second outstanding blunder: Russians have an exaggerated love of their Motherland (Fatherland) and their "personifying their land" is a Freudian longing to obey a parent impersonated by the land (or the state). The feelings reflected in the words "Motherland", "Fatherland" and the love of the land are not Freudian. They are, in fact, pagan, or even more ancient - it's just a desire to survive in the world, pure and simple. Land feeds you, land and fertility was the first God or Gods every human being worshiped. Paganism counted for a lot more millennia than Christianity, and this is reflected in all modern languages.

As to the "longing to obey the "Father figure" in calling themselves "children of the Fatherland" - well, maybe I'm missing something, but the hymn of the French revolution "La Marceillaise" actually started with the words "Allons Enfants de la Patrie", which is exactly the same - "Forward, children of your Fatherland". So, I guess, people fighting for their freedom on barricades are just longing to be slaves of the state...

And why would Delacroix depict Freedom Leading the People as a Woman-Mother? Why would people need anybody to lead them at all - is it because they are slaves longing for parental guidance? You know, we can reach absolute absurdity going down the path of the author's reasoning...

Russia's history covers more than 2 millennia and vast parts of it the author managed not to notice - he noticed that "not all serfs ran from their masters" (well, try it when you're burdened with kids, cattle and belongings and have no money and no means of transportation or survival in a sub-zero climate, with a fatal punishment looming over your head for escaping), but he definitely forgot about the MASS exodus of Russian serfs who COULD escape, to the Don-river and to Siberia and forming a whole armed freedom-loving "nation within nation" called Kazaks which in the long run the Tzar himself had to acknowledge as a considerable force and lure by benefits to be his friends rather than foes.

And - how good is that - the author mentions that "serfdom ended in Russia ONLY in 1861". Well, how correct could that be characterizing the profound slavish and masochistic nature of a Russian person, if the Emancipation of slaves in America happened actually 2 years LATER than it happened in Russia? Will the author consider writing a book about the "slave soul of African Americans" or he would rather prefer not to face the outrage of the African American community - and Russia has long been a punching bag during cold war times - so why not gain some more "scientific" (and financial) capital exploiting this well-trodden path... Yours truly /servant/ - ooops!
 

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