Sam Vaknin - Narcissist or "I, Psychopath"?
- Thread starter Laura
- Start date
piranah
Padawan Learner
i have been looking info on npd and psychopaths for some years as my adopted child grew into a very socially dangerous person. i went to website called psychopath research it appeared to be a place where those who had trauma relating to psychopaths could reflect and heal. in fact i did learn lots of useful info but bwecame concerned over the way the moderators fawned and tried to illicit details from me. one..... jan got my email and told me they were compiling a book. she was sooooo complimentary it didnt feel right it made me really question the validity of the whole site. i realised what a good spiders web the site could be ....like a feeding ground for psychopaths. then i noticed one of the posters was called sam vaknin he seemed to be interested in the posts re sex and the psychopath ....i got bad feelin about the whole thing so i think these people enjoy the pain we post. Just to add this forum now closed to new posters
purplehaze
Jedi Master
Are we wrong? do many of the Cluster B disorders seem to have Narcissistic Traits? 
Re: Sam Vaknin - Narcissist or Psychopath?
this is not too fine a distinction, personality disorders and other psychological problems, are not like pregnancy, you can have just a little. In fact, there are usually more than one diagnosing criteria found on examination, and one can have a 'main' problem or diagnosis, with features of others. One can have features of many character or behavior disorders, and still be highly functional; functionality thus determines whether it reaches a disorder(ed) state, and determines treatment criteria, and usually length of treatment.
Laura said:
this is not too fine a distinction, personality disorders and other psychological problems, are not like pregnancy, you can have just a little. In fact, there are usually more than one diagnosing criteria found on examination, and one can have a 'main' problem or diagnosis, with features of others. One can have features of many character or behavior disorders, and still be highly functional; functionality thus determines whether it reaches a disorder(ed) state, and determines treatment criteria, and usually length of treatment.
Santi
A Disturbance in the Force
I am a AAC participant who has recently left. :(
I want to thank the participants in this thread for the info provided that helpd me disengage from all the crazymaking there. Destinystar ( troll, flamer, nic changer) has hit again and has taken to harassing some participants, tracking them down in real life. TODAY! and aligns with the B cluster bullies.
Old timers, senior posters. I knew it was all too nutty but due to the lack of moderation NOTHING can be done. I wouldn't be surprised if i get followed here and my post gaslighted in some way.
Now i just want to clear my head of "all that" and carry on with my life.
I don't know if i will participate here.I obviously have a "mental health, AAC forum" hangover.
I'm not too shaken up, just had my final "ahha" moment thanks to this thread and a few other tidbits of info I found on the web.
All the best!
I want to thank the participants in this thread for the info provided that helpd me disengage from all the crazymaking there. Destinystar ( troll, flamer, nic changer) has hit again and has taken to harassing some participants, tracking them down in real life. TODAY! and aligns with the B cluster bullies.
Old timers, senior posters. I knew it was all too nutty but due to the lack of moderation NOTHING can be done. I wouldn't be surprised if i get followed here and my post gaslighted in some way.
Now i just want to clear my head of "all that" and carry on with my life.
I don't know if i will participate here.I obviously have a "mental health, AAC forum" hangover.
I'm not too shaken up, just had my final "ahha" moment thanks to this thread and a few other tidbits of info I found on the web.
All the best!
Hi Santi,
Welcome to our forum. :)
Glad that this thread helped you.
We recommend all new members to post an introduction in the Newbies section telling us a bit about themselves, how they found the cass material, and how much of the work here they have read.
You can have a look through that board to see how others have done it.
Welcome to our forum. :)
Glad that this thread helped you.
We recommend all new members to post an introduction in the Newbies section telling us a bit about themselves, how they found the cass material, and how much of the work here they have read.
You can have a look through that board to see how others have done it.
TOTEM36
Jedi
Sam Vaknin and his twisting of the truth has been covered thoroughly in this thread.
but, I just wanted to share a paragraph of his that i found to be really haunting. (perhaps it is one of the best examples ever of the Psychopaths' souless p.o.v.? )
from 'Malignant Self Love':
"The Pollyanna defences of the abused are aimed against the emerging and horrible understanding that humans are specks of dust in a totally indifferent universe, the playthings of evil and sadistic forces, of which the narcissist is one - as well as against the unbearable realization that their pain means nothing to anyone but themselves. Nothing whatsoever. It has all been in vain.
The narcissist holds such thinking in barely undisguised contempt. To him, it is a sign of weakness, the scent of prey, a gaping vulnerability. He uses and abuses this human need for order, good, and meaning - as he uses and abuses all other human needs. Gullibility, selective blindness, malignant optimism - these are the weapons of the beast. And the abused are hard at work to provide it with its arsenal."
but, I just wanted to share a paragraph of his that i found to be really haunting. (perhaps it is one of the best examples ever of the Psychopaths' souless p.o.v.? )
from 'Malignant Self Love':
"The Pollyanna defences of the abused are aimed against the emerging and horrible understanding that humans are specks of dust in a totally indifferent universe, the playthings of evil and sadistic forces, of which the narcissist is one - as well as against the unbearable realization that their pain means nothing to anyone but themselves. Nothing whatsoever. It has all been in vain.
The narcissist holds such thinking in barely undisguised contempt. To him, it is a sign of weakness, the scent of prey, a gaping vulnerability. He uses and abuses this human need for order, good, and meaning - as he uses and abuses all other human needs. Gullibility, selective blindness, malignant optimism - these are the weapons of the beast. And the abused are hard at work to provide it with its arsenal."
Janice Forbes
A Disturbance in the Force
I haven't read the whole analysis yet, or the multitude of comments. Thanks for it though. I've watched quite a lot of Sam Vaknin videos on Youtube lately (having visited his website about 10 years ago, looking for guidance or quick answers to interpersonal stuff). I was interested because I'm having trouble with someone at work who appears to have narcissistic tendencies and to lack empathy, but at the bottom of the food chain (to his amazement, despite being well qualified) not the top; a flawed personality the most likely explanation.
Now I've started to think about his whole concept. Sam's view of the people he calls narcissists is so uncompromising, yes as you say, as if they were unlike other people. If this was some accepted theory on narcissism and Sam a psychiatrist, I thought, I'd like to challenge the theory. Surely "narcissism" cannot describe the whole of a person's personality and thereby dehumanise them, rather if it exists it is more likely to be a tendency or dominant characteristic and that most people would have the full range of human feelings i.e. all people are human beings and however flawed, we all share the same lot as earth bound creatures with certain needs that tend to anchor us in some way.
The Greeks had a handle on a lot of stuff including the human experience, and I don't doubt all of us have within us a streak of narcissism but perhaps not as an enduring trait so much as one response or way to be amongst a huge repertoire. So, definitely narcissism is part of the human experience that can become a trap for some (as in the Greek tragedy) however the point of the tragedy (and I remember the learning of not focussing too much on admiring the 'self" went deep for me when I first heard the story as a child) is to teach people to lead a balanced life and thereby avoid unnecessary grief.
I Googled Sam and found he is not a psychiatrist, just a writer and has spent time in prison for fraud. If we were to believe what Sam says about narcissists, and since he is a self avowed narcissist, going by what he says about this personality type, I'd be doubting whether a lot of what he says is truthful, albeit he is magnetic to watch and appears to be making logical and/or authoritative sense. More like the whole creation is about self validation - which does rather make it look like there is something in the "I, Psychopath" - and is what he tells us is giving him "narcissistic supply". He perhaps has a need to do this and probably motivates so many such videos.
My work experience is that those who get ahead are often psychopathic not narcissistic. I may be wrong but most people with narcissism as their dominant trait, I feel would be too incompetent, vulnerable (tantrum prone when things don't go their way) and self absorbed to achieve to such a high level. Narcissist personality types I would imagine are generally not "out there" doing stuff in the world because they are too busy admiring their own reflection and patting themselves on the back for being so uniquely wonderful.
Also, I feel narcissistic tendencies would be more a disorder of the young, and unlike in the legend, most people do receive enough reality testing about their own lack of omnipotence to shake them out of any dream they may have of personal perfection; a form of deluded self admiration that according to the legend is paralysing and causes life to pass that person by. We all would have this tendency to some degree (as in when we take time out to gloat on an achievement or talent) but to be paralysed by it as in the legend is an extreme hypothetical case not to be confused with real persons in the real world.
Thanks for the opportunity to have a Saturday morning rave about narcissism.
Now I've started to think about his whole concept. Sam's view of the people he calls narcissists is so uncompromising, yes as you say, as if they were unlike other people. If this was some accepted theory on narcissism and Sam a psychiatrist, I thought, I'd like to challenge the theory. Surely "narcissism" cannot describe the whole of a person's personality and thereby dehumanise them, rather if it exists it is more likely to be a tendency or dominant characteristic and that most people would have the full range of human feelings i.e. all people are human beings and however flawed, we all share the same lot as earth bound creatures with certain needs that tend to anchor us in some way.
The Greeks had a handle on a lot of stuff including the human experience, and I don't doubt all of us have within us a streak of narcissism but perhaps not as an enduring trait so much as one response or way to be amongst a huge repertoire. So, definitely narcissism is part of the human experience that can become a trap for some (as in the Greek tragedy) however the point of the tragedy (and I remember the learning of not focussing too much on admiring the 'self" went deep for me when I first heard the story as a child) is to teach people to lead a balanced life and thereby avoid unnecessary grief.
I Googled Sam and found he is not a psychiatrist, just a writer and has spent time in prison for fraud. If we were to believe what Sam says about narcissists, and since he is a self avowed narcissist, going by what he says about this personality type, I'd be doubting whether a lot of what he says is truthful, albeit he is magnetic to watch and appears to be making logical and/or authoritative sense. More like the whole creation is about self validation - which does rather make it look like there is something in the "I, Psychopath" - and is what he tells us is giving him "narcissistic supply". He perhaps has a need to do this and probably motivates so many such videos.
My work experience is that those who get ahead are often psychopathic not narcissistic. I may be wrong but most people with narcissism as their dominant trait, I feel would be too incompetent, vulnerable (tantrum prone when things don't go their way) and self absorbed to achieve to such a high level. Narcissist personality types I would imagine are generally not "out there" doing stuff in the world because they are too busy admiring their own reflection and patting themselves on the back for being so uniquely wonderful.
Also, I feel narcissistic tendencies would be more a disorder of the young, and unlike in the legend, most people do receive enough reality testing about their own lack of omnipotence to shake them out of any dream they may have of personal perfection; a form of deluded self admiration that according to the legend is paralysing and causes life to pass that person by. We all would have this tendency to some degree (as in when we take time out to gloat on an achievement or talent) but to be paralysed by it as in the legend is an extreme hypothetical case not to be confused with real persons in the real world.
Thanks for the opportunity to have a Saturday morning rave about narcissism.
Hi all, Sparkster Hubs here. I am a writer on this topic though I am not a qualified psychologist or mental health professional. However, I am (was) a victim of long-term narcissistic abuse at the hands of a covert narcissist. This went on for 12 years and I spent the next 4 years researching the disorder and I have just released my first eBook on the topic, Know Your Enemy: Reflections Of NPD. I have read much of Vaknin's work including his book Malignant Self-Love: Narcissism Revisited. I have mentioned Sam Vaknin in some of my work but I have never challenged him as such or looked into him too deeply. However, after reading through the majority of this thread I took the time to watch some of his Youtube videos and look into the information he has to offer a bit more thoroughly and there are quite a few things about him that seem odd.
I'll start with Vaknin's claim of being a "self-confessed" narcissist - the statement is a complete contradiction. A true narcissist would NEVER be willing to even consider the fact that they may be a narcissist - the disorder is characterized by denial and repression and so this very statement gives me the impression that he is not a narcissist at all (although he may wrongly believe he is). Narcissism is a trait present in all of us but becomes a personality disorder when it becomes 'malignant' (that is, it affects the lives of everybody around them on a long-term basis and is unlikely to ever change) and so many people may recognize a lot of the reported traits in themselves (and therefore this could be where Vaknin's belief stemmed from).
It's highly unlikely that a true narcissist would ever come forward and speak about malignant narcissism so openly in the way that Vaknin has. They may know on some level that they are a narcissist or recognize the behaviour in their self but this will never be admitted or acknowledged publicly and narcissists will usually just discard such information as though it is complete nonsense - as far as they are concerned they are blessed with a gift. However, in Vaknin's writing he openly acknowledges that when he was in prison he spent a lot of time reflecting on his past and started to realize that he, himself, was the cause of most of the damage in his life. It's unlikely that a narcissist would self-reflect in such a way, even in prison - the blame would be projected, it would be everybody else's fault, not their own - they are too perfect!
After studying his work it seems that Vaknin is actually describing a combination of many different disorders, some of which often overlap with each other. However, the more I read about him and his work, the more I get the impression that he is actually talking about sociopathy/psychopathy perhaps with a hint of paranoid personality disorder.
I'll start with Vaknin's claim of being a "self-confessed" narcissist - the statement is a complete contradiction. A true narcissist would NEVER be willing to even consider the fact that they may be a narcissist - the disorder is characterized by denial and repression and so this very statement gives me the impression that he is not a narcissist at all (although he may wrongly believe he is). Narcissism is a trait present in all of us but becomes a personality disorder when it becomes 'malignant' (that is, it affects the lives of everybody around them on a long-term basis and is unlikely to ever change) and so many people may recognize a lot of the reported traits in themselves (and therefore this could be where Vaknin's belief stemmed from).
It's highly unlikely that a true narcissist would ever come forward and speak about malignant narcissism so openly in the way that Vaknin has. They may know on some level that they are a narcissist or recognize the behaviour in their self but this will never be admitted or acknowledged publicly and narcissists will usually just discard such information as though it is complete nonsense - as far as they are concerned they are blessed with a gift. However, in Vaknin's writing he openly acknowledges that when he was in prison he spent a lot of time reflecting on his past and started to realize that he, himself, was the cause of most of the damage in his life. It's unlikely that a narcissist would self-reflect in such a way, even in prison - the blame would be projected, it would be everybody else's fault, not their own - they are too perfect!
After studying his work it seems that Vaknin is actually describing a combination of many different disorders, some of which often overlap with each other. However, the more I read about him and his work, the more I get the impression that he is actually talking about sociopathy/psychopathy perhaps with a hint of paranoid personality disorder.
obyvatel
The Living Force
Hi Sparkster,
Welcome to the forum. In your comments above there are some assumptions which contradict certain research findings about psychopathology. You may want to read George Simon's "Character Disturbance" and Lobaczewski's "Political Ponerology" which are in the recommended reading list provided to you in your introduction thread.
Welcome to the forum. In your comments above there are some assumptions which contradict certain research findings about psychopathology. You may want to read George Simon's "Character Disturbance" and Lobaczewski's "Political Ponerology" which are in the recommended reading list provided to you in your introduction thread.
Sparkster said:
Yes, the evidence falls heavily on the side of Vaknin being a psychopath who had the idea of getting a new con going by utilizing his "misfortunes" as a pity hook (big clue there) and diagnosing himself and claiming to have turned over a new leaf. Not far from the "psychopath as physician" chapter in Cleckley's book.
Obviously, he doesn't really have insight, he just loves the con.
Laura said:
Exactly, there is no remorse or self-reflection at all, it's just that claiming he is a psychopath (or 'malignant narcissist') will put him in the spotlight and then he can use it to manipulate one way or another. He doesn't care at all if there is any truth in it, he just uses it for convenience or perhaps even glamour.
It's like George W Bush being a 'born again Christian'. He couldn't care less whether there is a God or not, it's just that it generates votes. Except that in the case of Vaknin his claim happens to be true...
Windmill knight said:
Well, to be precise, Vaknin claims to be a narcissist but the tests showed him to be a psychopath. As Sparkster points out, a REAL narcissist would never, EVER, in a million years, see themselves as flawed. They can't. They suffer from an extreme form of the Dunning-Kruger effect!
Lisa Guliani
The Living Force
Laura said: "As Sparkster points out, a REAL narcissist would never, EVER, in a million years, see themselves as flawed. They can't. They suffer from an extreme form of the Dunning-Kruger effect!"
Yep. Perfectly defines my EX.
Yep. Perfectly defines my EX.