Sam Vaknin - Narcissist or "I, Psychopath"?

Re: Sam Vaknin - Narcissist or Psychopath?

piranah said:
thank you for the clarification. I had thought her psychopathic but when I use that word I find not many believe me choosing to believe psychopaths are completely crazy and like those obvious ones on tv. Mine is coldly calculating and persistant and vengeful.

What you are describing here is exactly what the psychopaths are doing. Confusing the issues between "failed" psychopaths, the ones that are caught, and the really "good" psychopaths, the ones that are not found out.

If they can get the normal people to believe that the crazy, serial killing, weirdo psychopaths are the only kind of psychopaths there are, then the truly devious, evil, powerful psychopaths can remain hidden.

I think that it would be good for you to read the following books, if you have not already done so:

The Sociopath Next Door - Martha Stout
Women Who Love Psychopaths - Sandra Brown
Snakes in Suits - Robert Hare and Paul Babiak
Without Conscience - Robert Hare
The Mask of Sanity - Hervey Cleckley
Political Ponerology - Andrzej Lobaczewski

The psychopaths are also trying to blur the lines between psychopathy and narcissism and anti-social behavior. They would love for folks to believe that they can be treated and become as normal humans when there is nothing further from the truth.
 
Re: Sam Vaknin - Narcissist or Psychopath?

Thank you Nienna. I have read some of those books you mention but I have noted the ones I haven't.
Knowledge is power most certainly where the Psychopath is concerned but a certain kind of knowledge. And keeping back from them exactly what you know is important too. Anything you give them is more than they know and in my experience they use what you say to play and spin you even more. I realise now I told my abuser exactly what buttons to press. When I exposed my soft truthful self she just licked her lips. What a feast I was. I moved far from my psychopathic relative and in the quiet after the storm I have started asking myself the right questions. They are so good at acting that you believe it is you going mad. They are not mad in the normal way because they are aware that they are hurting people they plan the manipulation and that is why Sam Vaknin strikes me as dangerous. Because he knows what he is doing he even pretends to help by sharing his issues. By running help sites. Vulnerable women will be taken in. My relative is a beautiful intelligent woman. To the unaware she poses as a victim. She goes to them crying and soft and attatches to people. Seems to me many of them are so happy to have her attention and friendship and her stroking their egos that they become blind like she sucks the commonsense out of them. I think of that story of the Snow Queen. Doesn't she put ice in people's hearts. For some reason though there are certain people who see through the charade of these psychopaths and narcissists. I believe it is in our senses but we forget we push down that nagging gut feeling that something is not right. I am only a beginner on the quest but I now trust my inner self so much more. I was reading a book about vampires called Trading Skin there were many similarities with my personal experience of psychopathic abuse.

Psychopaths are emotional vampires and hurt themselves more in the end though they will not realise this until too late if ever. One thing I noted in my experience is that they have this clever way of reading a situation and reading people. One woman I knew damaged things in the community and blamed others. She got away with it until I saw her one day scratching this noticeboard. I knew she had a bit of a feud going with a friend of mine and I had myself been friends with her for a while. I clocked she was causing the damage because my friend had put up a poster for this residents group which the woman had wanted to chair and she then went to others and said my friend had done it. The woman I later found out went from community organisation to organisation moving on when she got found out or the water became too hot. In a big city this is infinitely possible. I often see her picture now or run into her. She was nominated for a volunteer of the year award and last time I saw her she was driving a brand new car. I believe she scammed the Disability Living Awards somehow and got a car she was always saying how she would.
My friend was also beaten up on the street because of a false rumour this woman spread. There are many like this woman out there. They set things up and watch the action. Much too clever to actually physically get violent they set it up so others do it for them. It has taught me to be very cautious about giving out personal details and to watch someone and listen carefully before you call them a friend. I cant believe I went through life so naievely.
 
Re: I, Psychopath

Rewatching this, Vaknin's remark about psychopaths and nonpsychopaths "probably having different experiences of 'love'" raises some questions. Hare quotes another unusually perceptive psychopath saying something similar:

Hare (W/O Conscience?) said:
“There are emotions - a whole spectrum of them - that I know only through words, through reading and in my immature imagination. I can imagine I feel these emotions (know, therefore, what they are), but I do not.”

But how to reconcile this with the view that psychopaths project their own world-view on to everyone else?

Ponerology.com said:
Cleckley hypothesizes that psychopaths cannot distinguish between their pseudo-intentions, -feelings, -remorse, and their normal human counterparts. Instead of thinking that normal humans have something that psychopaths do not (i.e. conscience), they perceive normal humans’ reactions as strange and childish reactions. They are like a color-blind man who thinks everyone else is crazy for responding differently to so many shades of the same color. Their pathological egotism prohibits them from finding fault in themselves, thus projecting all blame to an external cause.

Do psychopaths really have any inclination of "normal emotions", even if only an intellectual one, or are they "emotionally blind"? Or perhaps Vankin (and the patient quoted by Hare) may have just been repeating what they have heard others say about normal human emotions, while not really believing it?
 
Re: I, Psychopath

I think the only REAL way we can know about them is by their effects on others. Since not really understanding (profound lack of insight) and lying are two of their chief characteristics, we cannot rely on anything they say.
 
Re: I, Psychopath

Kesdjan said:
Do psychopaths really have any inclination of "normal emotions", even if only an intellectual one, or are they "emotionally blind"? Or perhaps Vankin (and the patient quoted by Hare) may have just been repeating what they have heard others say about normal human emotions, while not really believing it?

Emotions usually have some effects on the physical body - like elevated heart rate, muscular contractions etc. These physiological effects caused by an emotion in a human can often be sensed by animals who are in proximity. As an example, here is an interesting abstract of a study on horse-human interaction from pubmed.
Animals have developed sensing apparati by which they can acquire a lot of information about their environment (why, even an oil drop can navigate a maze for that matter!!). As a predator of normal humans, it is logically possible that the psychopaths have developed the sensing capability to pick up clues about their prey just as predators in the natural world do. If so, then they can "sense" instead of "feel" human emotions. This sensory data can then be mapped into the inner world of the psychopath and through a possible learning cycle, become a sort of pseudo-emotion. This mapping of sensory data can never capture all the nuances of the rich tapestry of normal human emotions - so the mapped pseudo-emotions are likely to be limited. Yet this may be enough to give the impression of normality to psychopaths where they can mix in with normal people with the latter applying corrective interpretations to fill in the gaps left by the impoverished pseudo-emotional landscape of the predator.
Don't know if this makes sense - fwiw.
 
Re: I, Psychopath

obyvatel said:
Animals have developed sensing apparati by which they can acquire a lot of information about their environment (why, even an oil drop can navigate a maze for that matter!!). As a predator of normal humans, it is logically possible that the psychopaths have developed the sensing capability to pick up clues about their prey just as predators in the natural world do. If so, then they can "sense" instead of "feel" human emotions. This sensory data can then be mapped into the inner world of the psychopath and through a possible learning cycle, become a sort of pseudo-emotion. This mapping of sensory data can never capture all the nuances of the rich tapestry of normal human emotions - so the mapped pseudo-emotions are likely to be limited. Yet this may be enough to give the impression of normality to psychopaths where they can mix in with normal people with the latter applying corrective interpretations to fill in the gaps left by the impoverished pseudo-emotional landscape of the predator.
Don't know if this makes sense - fwiw.

Somewhat related is the notion that people in the last few centuries have slowly been pushed into centralized, dependent existence. Those that still live in the country, and rely on the earth for their existence pay attention, and have not lost the "sensing" capability. They can sense an approaching predator. Not only predators from the animal world, but ALL predators.


Their survival depends on it. The difference between someone living the land and the city dweller? The former knows the bottom line and imposed illusions don't fly too far.
 
Re: I, Psychopath

I was surprised to hear on the ABC radio this morning an interview with Ian Walker about his film 'I, Psychopath'. He talked about the prevalence of psychopaths, especially among high powered people and politicians. It's good to see it's getting some coverage.

I will try and pick up a copy of the documentary when I can. Here is a synopsis.

[quote author="I, Psychopath"]Psychopaths…they’ll charm you, manipulate you, then ruin your life. But, not all of them
with a gun or a knife. In this extra-ordinary documentary, suspected psychopath Sam
Vaknin goes in search of a diagnosis…was he born without a conscience? “Making a
movie with a psychopath,” declares I, Psychopath’s director Ian Walker, “is a little like
poking a snake with a stick.” Unwittingly, the film-maker becomes a textbook victim.
Joined by Vaknin’s long-suffering but ever-loyal wife Lidija, the threesome embark on a
diagnostic road trip to the world’s top experts in psychopathy in which Vaknin (and his
wife) undergo a battery of rigorous psychological tests and neuroscientific experiments.
He is the world’s first civilian to willingly seek a diagnosis for psychopathy. The former
corporate criminal turns out to be a way better psychopath than any of them imagined.
By the end, Walker almost calls it quits on his own film rather than spend another day
with its main subject.[/quote]

[quote author="I, Psychopath"]Despite the best advice of the world’s top experts, Australian documentary-maker Ian
Walker was naïve to think he could study a psychopath in the wild and not get hurt.

“I didn’t really understand how manipulative a psychopath can be,” the director of I,
Psychopath now admits. “I thought it would be a fair fight. After all, the filmmaker has
the power, really. The power of the camera and the edit.”

But, as it turns out, Walker chose his subject well. 47 year-old Israeli-born Sam Vaknin is
a former corporate criminal and a self-proclaimed master of manipulation and reinvention.
Walker first interviewed him several years ago as the author of the book
Malignant Self-Love: Narcissism Revisited.

Walker was intrigued by a throwaway line where Vaknin professed he thought himself a
“corporate psychopath”. Afterwards, the film-maker spent several years researching the
subject, but always wanted to make a film which might show psychopathic behaviour in
action. Because of his narcissism, Vaknin was almost certain to say “Yes”.

So, in February 2008, joined by Vaknin’s long-suffering but ever-loyal wife Lidija, the
threesome embarked on a diagnostic road trip to the world’s top experts in psychopathy.
Via a battery of psychological testing and brainscanning experiments, Vaknin becomes
the world’s first civilian to willingly seek a diagnosis for psychopathy.

The scientists are pleased to meet him. The “non-violent” or “white collar psychopath” is
a test subject they rarely find in their labs. Much about them, including how their brains
work, remains a mystery.

“They don't come to the attention of the science but also not to the attention of the social
system because they are not criminal,” explains German-based neurobiologist Professor
Niels Birbaumer. “They are not violent, viciously violent and that's why we don’t know them.
But their impact on society is tremendous, and it was never studied.”

In I, Psychopath, there are effectively two films happening in parallel. As the encounters
between Sam and the scientists unfold, the relationship between subject and director
shifts and changes, inadvertently supplying a voyeuristic first hand account of what it is
like to deal with an everyday “non-violent” psychopath.

Vaknin proves to be the real thing, scoring an 18 out of 24 on the official Psychopathy
Checklist (Screening Version). Most people, outside of prison, would score a zero or one,
according to the Checklist’s inventor Professor Bob Hare.

Unlike most psychopaths, though, Vaknin is ruthlessly honest about his lack of feeling
and his opportunistic predatory nature. His carefully controlled aggression worked, as
Walker recalls, “like a slow poison on my mental health.”

If the vocabulary of melodrama sounds a little extreme, Walker believes many people
experience a sense of derangement, a kind of mental dysmorphia, when caught in the
powerful grip of a psychopath.

“Given that experts now believe that one out of very hundred people qualify as a
psychopath, there’s probably at least one in every dysfunctional office. I’ve encountered
minor versions working in the media,” he laughs. “And most of them are way too careful
to let the mask drop and get caught out. That’s the problem. They are manipulative,
talentless charmers who knife you in the back as soon as it gets dark.”

The bullying, which Walker says is a stock-in-trade tool of the psychopath, started for him
on Day One of the shoot.

“After the first interview in Macedonia, where Sam lives and had been working for the
government as an economic adviser, he called me to a special meeting and read me the
riot act. He knew we’d committed to the documentary, so he threatened to pull out. He
accused me of asking negative questions, told me I was a terrible filmmaker.

“That was just the beginning. After that, the abuse came on an irregular and seemingly
irrational basis, every other day. It was like death by a thousand cuts. But he was very
callous and controlled. He never did or said anything in front of the camera, he always
waited until the main camera was turned off, or safely packed away.”

Like most psychopaths, Vaknin knows what he’s doing and is a skilled manipulator. It’s
his full-time pursuit. In one of the most insightful and informative scenes in the film,
Vaknin launches into a vicious and foul-mouthed verbal tirade against Walker then,
moments later, coolly dissects the art of bullying.

“Many systems in the body go haywire within a session of bullying,” he tells the camera.
“Especially once the session is over. So what bullies usually do is they start and stop,
start and stop. That achieves maximum physiological arousal and stress syndrome. And
this is the great secret of bullying. Never over do it. Small doses. The victim will do the
rest.”

Alone in his hotel room at night, Walker poured out his frustration to a video diary, but it
didn’t help.

“In fact I looked like the crazy one! I thought he was childlike and stupid, but when I look
back he was playing me like a violin. And I knew that if I didn’t capture any of his tirades
on camera I didn’t have what I needed for the film.”

Just how Walker managed to call checkmate, and escape from Sam Vaknin without
sabotaging the film, makes for a thrilling ride. By the end, the film-maker resorts to
desperate measures (a shaky secret camera hidden in a backpack), then calls an early
end to the shoot rather than spend another day with its main subject.

One area I, Psychopath succeeds strongly is in dispelling the myth that psychopathy is
the exclusive domain of serial killers. Experts now believe these dangerous “social
predators” are just as common in the stockmarket, the office, halls of industry, houses of
parliament, or the corner store.

Perhaps the greatest tragedy of the film is that Vaknin presents as an articulate high
achiever who could have traveled a much different path in life if not for his psychopathic
traits. His biography reads stranger than fiction. Possessed of a 185 IQ, Vaknin was
fast-tracked to university at the age of 11. By 21 he was was flying the world in a private
jet. But, in 1997, his world came crashing down when he and his fellow company
directors became Israel’s first corporate executives to be jailed for insider trading.

He has, by his own admission, made and lost his fortune at least three times. His stint in
jail gave him time to reflect, finally coming to the conclusion that the common
denominator in all his problems was, in fact, himself.

On his release, Vaknin relocated to Macedonia where he met his wife Lidija. He now runs
an online self-help site for victims of extreme narccisists, operating on the premise that it
takes one to know one.

Sam’s wife Lidija, an intelligent, yet vulnerable, woman who loves Vaknin despite his
abundant selfishness, strikes one of the most heartbreaking chords in the film. When
Walker confronts her with footage of “the real Sam” disparaging their relationship it clearly
wounds her, yet she is insistent that Sam truly loves her.

“That’s exactly how Sam Vaknin fits into all the work I’ve done before,” Walker, explains.
“I’ve always wanted to understand why bad things happen to good people? Why do the
good guys so often come last? Why do the bastards always seem to end up with all the
fame and money, and every appearance of success?”

“One reason is because psychopaths thrive on good people. It’s the one consolation for
their victims. They take advantage of people with high empathy, people of goodwill.
That’s where the evil comes into it.”

Professor Bob Hare concurs: “The victims all have something in common and that is that
they're human. And everybody can be victimised. I have been victimised, I have been
conned and manipulated by psychopaths and I should know better, but how do you know?
If we believe in the fundamental goodness of man, we’re doomed.”

Hare is the recognised world leader in psychopathy research and, as well as his weighty
onscreen presence, he agreed to act as the film’s scientific consultant. Walker sought him
out after reading that, after more than thirty years observing psychopaths inside Canada's
high security prisons, the Professor thinks he should have spent more time at the Stock
Exchange observing society's more "successful" psychopaths.

In fact, realizing we have all just lived through an era when psychopaths seem to highjack
not just capitalism, but democracy, Walker says: “There is a case for using the
Psychopathy Checklist to create a kind of revisionist history. Think of Hitler, Stalin, the
corporate cheats at Enron, the recently disgraced American businessman Bernie Madoff,
even Donald Rumsfeld and the neocon hawks of the Bush era. All have potential to tick
most of the boxes.

“It’s definitely scary to have looked into the eyes of someone who wants to destroy you,”
Walker admits. Having survived his brush with a world class psychopath Walker says he
has only one real regret.

“I just hope I haven’t turned Sam Vaknin into a celebrity psychopath!”[/quote]
 
Re: I, Psychopath

JP said:
Cool, thanks Tigersoap.

Should be interesting.

Hi JP,

The new thread that you have just begun has been merged with an existing one.
fais-une-recherche-95.gif
 
Re: I, Psychopath

Kesdjan said:
Rewatching this, Vaknin's remark about psychopaths and nonpsychopaths "probably having different experiences of 'love'" raises some questions. Hare quotes another unusually perceptive psychopath saying something similar:

Hare (W/O Conscience?) said:
“There are emotions - a whole spectrum of them - that I know only through words, through reading and in my immature imagination. I can imagine I feel these emotions (know, therefore, what they are), but I do not.”

But how to reconcile this with the view that psychopaths project their own world-view on to everyone else?

Ponerology.com said:
Cleckley hypothesizes that psychopaths cannot distinguish between their pseudo-intentions, -feelings, -remorse, and their normal human counterparts. Instead of thinking that normal humans have something that psychopaths do not (i.e. conscience), they perceive normal humans’ reactions as strange and childish reactions. They are like a color-blind man who thinks everyone else is crazy for responding differently to so many shades of the same color. Their pathological egotism prohibits them from finding fault in themselves, thus projecting all blame to an external cause.

Do psychopaths really have any inclination of "normal emotions", even if only an intellectual one, or are they "emotionally blind"? Or perhaps Vankin (and the patient quoted by Hare) may have just been repeating what they have heard others say about normal human emotions, while not really believing it?

There's a simple way to reconcile it - and probably the truth - the psychopath that Hare quotes is simply playing the pity card.

Never underestimate how much, how often, and how cleverly they can - and will - lie.
 
Re: I, Psychopath

Note that there are two ways to purchase this video:

http://www.amazon.com/I-Psychopath-Ian-Walker/dp/B002W6ZI1Q/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1263702472&sr=1-1

http://www.i-psychopath.com/?page_id=56
 
Re: I, Psychopath

I knew about Vaknin's work some 10 years ago researching about narcissism in human behaviour. He has a very interesting book, Malignant Self Love - Narcissism Revisited, I was able to download it when it was recently published and promoted in the Internet.

It is curious, this book seems to be a result of self-research, the guy seems to have studied himself and looked for help in psychological knowledge of well known researchers.

I strongly recommend to read his book, you will have wonderfull glimpses about the twisted and strange internal world this people have. One thing that you have to keep in mind is that what they do to others is something vital for them, his survival seems to be in risk; their behaviour is exactly like what has been researched and extensively written, a predator behaviour.

It seems that the alternative is emptiness, a huge void that constantly threaten the psycho.

I knew a girl with this condition, I have detected it and it was acknowledged by herself openly, for her was the natural way of being and living. She told me about this void, she said it was a terrorific experience, a huge and black emptiness deep in her inner realms, a vortex that was always lurking to "suck" her.

They seem to cannot help doing what they do, although, at least regarding what she told me, they know they have no way out, she was convinced this emptiness will swallow her anyway, no matter what she do.

It was a strange relation, a kind of friendship, I was surprised to be this kind of confident. She had no "psycho" interest in me, maybe she felt she could tell me openly this things.
 
Re: I, Psychopath

You can download the video with Mozilla Firefox, adding the Download Helper complement. It will show you a button in the menu bar that will allow you to download it.
 
Re: Sam Vaknin - Narcissist or Psychopath?

Yesterday evening, ABC television in Australia screened "I, Psychopath" and I saw it by accident ...

OMG, what a documentary. I have read quite a lot about psychopaths, but to really experience one is quite another thing. I was for a time unsure as well, whether SV was just "playing psychopath", a strong narcissist, who has found his "ecological niche". Turns out he is a full-blown psychopath, scoring 18/24 in the PCL-SV (most people score zero to very low numbers).

In a way it is still somewhat true: He has found a way of publicly being a psychopath and getting away with it - living on others expenses. The manipulations he put Ian Walker, the filmmaker, through was quite amazing: superfriendly and very smooth one minute, then spitting the dummy and pouring expletives on Ian, and a few minutes later commenting and explaining this outburst as if he was watching a microbe under a looking-glass. I think that everyone watching this movie will get a sense of oppression, a cold chill.

But for me the worst was to watch his wife, Lidjia, interact with SV and defend him. It was a sad sight ... the only thing I was thinking was: Run, Lidja, run!
 
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