Saturn Articles

[alchemy]

Further evidence that climate change is not limited to Earth, but rather appears to be occurring throughout the solar system. Also, taking account of the comments that weather is a 3D representation of 4D "battles", it is also worth considering and pondering that these battles do not appear to be limited to just this planet...

A Giant Lightning Storm At Saturn
Wed, 15 Feb 2006 - Scientists are tracking a gigantic electrical storm raging on the surface of Saturn. This storm is the size of the United States, and the most powerful of its type ever seen. The origin of these storms is unknown, but researchers think it might have something to do with Saturn's warm interior. Cassini is expected to get much closer to Saturn in the next few weeks, so scientists will get a much better view.

The strongest lightning storm ever been recorded was found at Saturn.

Imagine an electrical storm larger than the continental United States in which the lightning bolts are more than 1,000 times stronger than conventional lightning, and you'll have a good idea of the lightning storm -- the strongest of its kind ever seen -- that University of Iowa space scientists and their colleagues currently are tracking at Saturn with the Cassini spacecraft.

UI Professor Donald Gurnett, principal investigator for the Radio and Plasma Wave Science investigation (RPWS), along with UI researchers William Kurth and Georg Fischer, have been tracking the storm since Jan. 23.

"It is clear that this is the strongest lightning activity that we've seen yet with Cassini since it has arrived at Saturn. In fact, the flash rate even exceeds the rate observed by Voyager 1 back in 1980 and the intensities are at least as large, if not larger," Gurnett says. "Since Cassini was over the night side of Saturn and in a difficult position to image clouds, amateur astronomers were asked if they had seen evidence of a storm cloud recently."

He adds that within hours, two amateurs near Paris had posted a beautiful image of a white cloud at southern latitudes on Saturn that they had obtained early on Jan. 25, at a location consistent with the source of the lightning radio emissions being observed by Cassini. Cassini has now imaged the storm that RPWS and the Earth-based amateurs have seen.

Kurth notes that the Iowa-built RPWS instrument detects radio emissions the same way that a car radio picks up the crackle and pop of a summer thunderstorm on Earth.

"With Cassini we have learned that lightning storms can emerge suddenly and last for several weeks or even a month", says Fischer, a UI postdoctoral research scholar. "On the other hand, we have only observed a single smaller lightning storm throughout 2005, which is remarkably different compared to what we know about terrestrial thunderstorms."

RPWS team member and UI alumnus Michael Kaiser of NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center, Greenbelt, Md., suggests that the storm has varied in intensity, but continued with some 25 episodes occurring since he first noticed the storm on Jan. 23.

The researchers say that the origin of such storms is unknown, but may be related to Saturn's warm interior. Gurnett says that scientists hope to locate the storm with greater precision in the coming weeks when Cassini is scheduled to fly closer to the planet.

Gurnett's RPWS team colleagues, in addition to Fischer, Kurth, and Kaiser, are Philippe Zarka and Alain Lecacheux of the Observatory of Paris, Meudon, France; and Bill Farrell of Goddard Space Flight Center, Greenbelt, Md.

The radio sounds of Saturn's lightning can be heard by visiting the Space Audio Web site at: Space Audio. More information about the Cassini Radio and Plasma Wave Science investigation can be found at http://cassini.physics.uiowa.edu/cassini/. A Podcast of this story and other Cassini mission information is available at Overview | Cassini – NASA Solar System Exploration and Cassini.

The Cassini mission is a cooperative project of NASA, the European Space Agency and the Italian Space Agency. The Jet Propulsion Laboratory, a division of the California Institute of Technology in Pasadena, Calif., manages the Cassini mission for NASA's Science Mission Directorate, Washington, D.C. The Cassini orbiter was designed, developed and assembled at JPL.

Original Source: University of Iowa News Release

A Giant Lightning Storm At Saturn

Scientists are tracking a gigantic electrical storm raging on the surface of Saturn. This storm is the size of the United States, and the most powerful of its type ever seen. The origin of these storms is unknown, but researchers think it might have something to do with Saturn's warm interior...

www.universetoday.com

Cheers,

John

 

[rs]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/space/20070327/sc_space/bizarrehexagonspottedonsaturn

SPACE.com Staff

SPACE.com 1 hour, 13 minutes ago

One of the most bizarre weather patterns known has been photographed at Saturn, where astronomers have spotted a huge, six-sided feature circling the north pole.

Rather than the normally sinuous cloud structures seen on all planets that have atmospheres, this thing is a hexagon.

The honeycomb-like feature has been seen before. NASA's Voyager 1 and 2 spacecraft imaged it more than two decades ago. Now, having spotted it with the Cassini spacecraft, scientists conclude it is a long-lasting oddity.

"This is a very strange feature, lying in a precise geometric fashion with six nearly equally straight sides," said Kevin Baines, atmospheric expert and member of Cassini's visual and infrared mapping spectrometer team at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, Calif. "We've never seen anything like this on any other planet. Indeed, Saturn's thick atmosphere, where circularly-shaped waves and convective cells dominate, is perhaps the last place you'd expect to see such a six-sided geometric figure, yet there it is."

The hexagon is nearly 15,000 miles (25,000 kilometers) across. Nearly four Earths could fit inside it. The thermal imagery shows the hexagon extends about 60 miles (100 kilometers) down into the clouds.

At Saturn's south pole, Cassini recently spotted a freaky human eye-like feature that resembles a hurricane.

"It's amazing to see such striking differences on opposite ends of Saturn's poles," said Bob Brown, team leader of the Cassini visual and infrared mapping spectrometer at the University of Arizona. "At the south pole we have what appears to be a hurricane with a giant eye, and at the north pole of Saturn we have this geometric feature, which is completely different."

The hexagon appears to have remained fixed with Saturn's rotation rate and axis since first glimpsed by Voyager 26 years ago. The actual rotation rate of Saturn is still uncertain, which means nobody knows exactly how long the planet's day is.

"Once we understand its dynamical nature, this long-lived, deep-seated polar hexagon may give us a clue to the true rotation rate of the deep atmosphere and perhaps the interior," Baines said.

This reminds me of Hoagland's "Hyperdimensional Physics" discussions on various geometrical weather patterns...

 

[Keit]

A: If that is what they are saying , but remember, Jupiter, Saturn and others resonate to vibrational levels greater than Earth. You are looking directly at density 4 when you view Jupiter, which is why photos of it from up close appear "surreal," more like drawings.

 

[ark]

This reminds me of Hoagland's "Hyperdimensional Physics" discussions on various geometrical weather patterns...

Indeed, the "researchers" and Hoagland are similar in this case: they do not have a clue!

 

[dant]

It looks like grays than that of human faces and in a circular pattern!
Surreal for sure!

 

[Niall]

This reminds me of Hoagland's "Hyperdimensional Physics" discussions on various geometrical weather patterns...

Indeed, the "researchers" and Hoagland are similar in this case: they do not have a clue!

Ark, is it this to which you refer?

"Once we understand its dynamical nature, this long-lived, deep-seated polar hexagon may give us a clue to the true rotation rate of the deep atmosphere and perhaps the interior," Baines said.

Or simply that they generally don't have a clue?!

 

[rs]

I am not speaking for Ark, but I'm betting that the simple bottom line is that whether or not the feature is locked to the rotation rate of the "underlying planet" (which in and of itself assumes there *is* one), they simply have no freakin' idea why there is this thing, it is obviously a perfect hexagon, and it is sitting over the south pole.

The idea that Saturn has a rotation rate depends on your definition of what the "it" is that is doing the rotating. For a gas giant such as Saturn, the boundary between "atmosphere" and "planet" is not nearly as clear as it is on our good old big blue marble.

Hoagland hasn't responded as of yet (that I can tell, anyway based on the front page of his enterprisemission site) but if this is not clear and obvious "Hoagland bait" then I don't know what would be...

 

[name]

i'm sorry to ruin your day but you are all wrong, including hoagland and all the clueless researchers. no hint of greys there, and the hexagon is 'quaint'. the picture looks like a low-res photo of the strawberry cup at an ice parlor i frequent

 

[anart]

i'm sorry to ruin your day but you are all wrong, including hoagland and all the clueless researchers. no hint of greys there, and the hexagon is 'quaint'. the picture looks like a low-res photo of the strawberry cup at an ice parlor i frequent

uhhmm, did you miss this post?

This reminds me of Hoagland's "Hyperdimensional Physics" discussions on various geometrical weather patterns...

Indeed, the "researchers" and Hoagland are similar in this case: they do not have a clue!

And the hexagon is actually fairly obvious in this pic - but - it is probably from JPL since it's Cassini - but they release the best images they can, after they screen and photoshop any anomalous content out ... or are you just joking around?

 

[Azur]

Kinda similar to this, eh?

http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=1595.msg8432#msg8432

Cheers.

 

[dant]

Um.... I am now confused.... is this a real photo or is it hog(land)wash? (Pun intended).

 

[rs]

Um.... I am now confused.... is this a real photo or is it hog(land)wash? (Pun intended).

Its "real".

http://saturn.jpl.nasa.gov/home/index.cfm

On the front page on March 28 2007 is the hexagon picture. Clicking the picture takes you to a press release from NASA:

http://saturn.jpl.nasa.gov/news/press-release-details.cfm?newsID=735

Very high resolution images are at:

http://photojournal.jpl.nasa.gov/catalog/PIA09188

 

[sHiZo963]

Kinda similar to this, eh?

http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=1595.msg8432#msg8432

Cheers.

Yes, it seems to be a very similar phenomenon. Even says at the bottom of the linked Nature article:

Similar polygonal shapes have been reported in gigantic, vortex-like flows in the atmosphere of our planet and others, as well as in the eye of a hurricane. And an immense, hexagonal-shaped vortex was spotted by the Voyager spacecraft at the northern pole of the gas-giant planet Saturn.

These natural structures have never been fully explained. Could they be produced by the effect observed by the Danish team? "I expect that similar conditions might apply in these atmospheric flows," says Bohr. But he admits that at this stage he doesn't understand the pattern-forming process well enough to be sure of the comparison.

Swinney [Harry Swinney, a specialist in pattern-forming fluid flows at the University of Texas at Austin], meanwhile, thinks that the process is unlikely to apply to large-scale flows such as that on Saturn, but might be relevant to smaller-scale phenomena such as tornadoes.

http://www.nature.com/news/2006/060515/full/060515-17.html

My question: why wouldn't the same process apply to "large-scale fluid flows" of the Saturn atmosphere? It seems to me just a matter of increasing the scale of the amount of stuff that's spinning, the velocity of the spinning, etc. and the fundamental laws of the process (whatever they may be) would still apply. But I'm far from being an expert, so I'm probably wrong.

Also in the above thread, Charles gives a great example:

If you hold an entire bunch of cigarettes in your hands, looking at all those perfectly round circles, something remarkable happens if you squeeze them together. Each perfectly round circle adopts the shape of a hexagon. Although for a given separate cigarette the outward pressure of the tobacco against the paper is still present, there is now also a pressure from outside against the paper that has a tendency to increase the ratio circumference/surface, just like the water column in the experiment.

This reminds me of something. The maximum amount of neighbors a circle can have in 2-dimensional space is 6. This is easily proven with 7 identical coins on a table and of course is shown by the cigarette example above. In 3-dimensional space, the maximum number of neighbors a sphere can have (with all of them identical to and still touching the central sphere) is 12, with the hexagon of spheres sandwiched between two sets of 3 spheres. This geometry is of immense importance to crystal structure formation, as I'm learning in my Inorganic Chem course right now. Any possible connection to the Saturn geometry escapes me at this point, however. FWIW.

EDIT:
Well, I did some digging around and came up with a website that does a good compilation of many patterns in nature:
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/dp5/pattern1.htm
Obviously, none of these patterns are "new" but it's really amazing to see them all presented in a logical way on one page. An example is given with shots of Saturn's north pole: the hexagon is clearly visible. The author states:

The atmosphere of Saturn, one of the four gas giants, circulates around its axis in striped bands. Seen from the poles, the bands generally appear to be circular. But the band nearest the north pole is hexagonal, with sides about 13,800 km long. Unlike other clouds in its atmosphere, it rotates slowly, if at all, relative to the planet. It is one of Saturn’s most enigmatic features.

...though we don't know much about the rotation of the planet itself, as shown below. What's important here is that the hexagon shape rotates slowly relative to the surrounding atmosphere.

From [http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1988Icar...76..335G]:

Title:
A hexagonal feature around Saturn's North Pole
Authors:
Godfrey, D. A.
Affiliation:
AA(National Optical Astronomy Observatories, Tucson, AZ)
Publication:
Icarus (ISSN 0019-1035), vol. 76, Nov. 1988, p. 335-356. SERC-supported research. (Icarus Homepage)
Publication Date:
11/1988
Category:
Lunar and Planetary Exploration
Origin:
STI
NASA/STI Keywords:
PLANETOLOGY, POLAR REGIONS, SATURN ATMOSPHERE, VOYAGER 2 SPACECRAFT, FLOW DISTRIBUTION, FLOW VELOCITY, RADIO EMISSION, VELOCITY MEASUREMENT
DOI:
10.1016/0019-1035(88)90075-9
Bibliographic Code:
1988Icar...76..335G

Abstract
A sequence of map-projected Voyager 2 images of Saturn is used to show that a hexagonally-shaped cloud feature surrounds that planet's north polar region; this hexagonal pattern appears to be stationary despite the 100 m/sec flow velocity for individual cloud features. This rotation rate, which is consistent with the radio rotation period, suggests either the interaction of the feature with observed radio emissions or the existence of a cause common to both, such as a feature of the deep planetary flow.

...and from [http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/0019-1035(88)90075-9]:

A hexagonal feature around Saturn's north pole

D. A. Godfrey

National Optical Astronomy Observatories,1 P.O. Box 26732, Tucson Arizona 85726-3732, USA

Received 8 September 1987; revised 28 March 1988. Available online 26 October 2002.


Abstract

Most analyses of the atmospheres of Jupiter and Saturn have concentrated on the equatorial and midlatitude regions. These have the best coverage because of the near-equatorial trajectories of the Voyager spacecraft. We used map-projected images to examine the polar regions of Saturn, which show an unexpected hexagonal feature. Measurements from a sequence of images show that the flow pattern echoes this shape. The striated clouds that form the pattern are moving at over 100 m/sec. However the hexagonal shape itself rotates at the radio rotation period, suggesting possibly some connection between the feature and the observed kilometric radio emissions.

...though I do not have access to the full paper to give more information. In any case, we see that the hexagonal pattern is moving AT THE SPEED of the RADIO ROTATION PERIOD (relatively slow) while the clouds themselves move at a speed of over 100 m/sec, which I presume to be quite fast.

So, what is this "radio rotation period"?

Since giant gas planets such as Saturn have no surface and are shrouded by clouds it is not possible to obtain an accurate rotation rate from visual observations. The rotation rate most commonly quoted is obtained by analyzing the periodic rotational modulation of radio emissions. These radio emissions are generated by charged particles whose motions are controlled by the planetary magnetic field. Since the magnetic field is linked to the deep interior of the planet this technique is believed to give the best indication of the average rotation rate of the planet. At Saturn the radio emission that is used to determine the radio rotation rate occurs in the frequency range from about 50 to 500 kHz and is called Saturn Kilometric Radiation (SKR). The color frequency-time spectrogram in the diagram shows the SKR intensity detected over a five day interval, from June 2 to June 7, 2004. The audio sounds of these radio emissions have been generated by shifting the radio frequency range from 100 to 300 kHz down to the frequency range from 0 to 3 kHz and speeding up the recording so that 1 second corresponds to one rotation. The average rotation period obtained over an approximate one year interval, from April 29, 2003, to June 10, 2004, during the Cassini approach to Saturn, is 10 hr 45 min 45 ± 36 sec. This period differs significantly from the rotation period obtained during the 1980-81 Voyager flybys of Saturn which was 10 hr 39 min 24 ± 7 sec [see Desch and Kaiser, Geophys. Res. Lett., 8, 253-256, 1981]. The Cassini observations confirm a result first reported by Lecacheux [Radio Emissions IV, ed. by H. O. Rucker, S. J. Bauer, and A. Lecacheux, Austrian Academy of Sciences Press, Vienna, pp. 313-325, 1977; also see Galopeau and Lecacheux, Geophys. Res. Lett., 105, 13,089-13,101, 2000] using the Ulysses spacecraft that Saturn's radio period often deviates substantially from the Voyager value. A comparison of the power spectrums for the Voyager and Cassini measurements is shown in the Figure below. The reason for the long term variations in Saturn's radio rotation period is poorly understood and will require further study.

http://www-pw.physics.uiowa.edu/space-audio/cassini/sat-rotation/

Wait, what? They've changed? See here:

University of Iowa News Release

June 28, 2004

Scientists Find That Saturn's Rotation Period Is A Puzzle

Scientists studying the rotational modulation of radio emissions from Saturn with the Cassini spacecraft are puzzled by apparent long-term variations in the radio rotational period of Saturn.

University of Iowa Space Physicist Don Gurnett, head of the team that is analyzing these radio emissions, says: "The rotational modulation of radio emissions from distant astronomical objects has long been used to provide very accurate measurements of their rotation period. The technique is particularly useful for the giant gas planets, such as Jupiter and Saturn, which have no surfaces and are covered by clouds that make direct visual measurements impossible."

The currently accepted rotation period of Saturn came from radio measurements obtained during the Voyagers 1 and 2 flybys of Saturn in 1980-81, and is 10 hour 39 minutes and 24 seconds plus or minus 7 seconds.

The first hint of something strange at Saturn came in 1997 when Alain Lecacheux, Patrick Galopeau, and Monique Aubier, from Observatoire de Paris, published a paper in the Austrian Academy of Science Press reporting that Saturn's radio rotation period was about one percent longer than the value obtained from Voyager. Now, during the Cassini approach to Saturn, where the radio signals from the planet are very strong and well defined, Gurnett and his colleagues have used the Radio and Plasma Wave Science (RPWS) instrument on Cassini to determine a new current value for the radio rotation period. The new value is 10 hours 45 minutes and 45 seconds plus or minus 36 seconds.

Michael D. Desch, Cassini RPWS team member, a scientist at NASA/Goddard Space Flight Center in Greenbelt, Md., who carried out the detailed analysis of the Cassini RPWS data, was also lead author of the earlier Voyager measurements. He says that in order to determine the rotation period he analyzed the recurring pattern of radio bursts from the planet for a little over a year from April 29, 2003, to June 10, 2004. "We all agree that the radio rotation period of Saturn is longer today than it was in during the Voyager flyby in 1980," he says.

Commenting on the new Cassini findings, Gurnett says: "Although Saturn's radio rotation period has clearly shifted by a substantial amount over the 24 years since the Voyager measurements, I don't think any of us could conceive of any process that would cause the rotation of the entire planet to actually slow down. So it appears that there is some kind of slippage between the deep interior of the planet and the magnetic field, which controls the charged particles responsible for the radio emission." He suggests that the solution may be tied to the fact that Saturn's rotational axis is nearly identical to its magnetic axis, differing by an angle of only one degree. Jupiter, which has its magnetic axis tilted by a more substantial 10 degrees relative to its rotational axis shows no comparable irregularities in its radio rotation period.

Writing in the May 1985 issue of "Geophysical Research Letters," Alex J. Dessler, a senior research scientist at the Lunar and Planetary Laboratory, University of Arizona, argued that the magnetic fields of gaseous giant planets, such as Saturn and Jupiter, are more like that of the sun than of the Earth. The sun's magnetic field does not rotate as a solid body. Instead, its rotation period varies with latitude. Commenting on the work of Gurnett and his team, Dessler said, "This finding is very significant because it demonstrates that the idea of a rigidly rotating magnetic field is wrong. Saturn's magnetic field has more in common with the sun than the Earth. The measurement can be interpreted as showing that the part of Saturn's magnetic field that controls the radio emissions has moved to a higher latitude during the last two decades."

"I think we will be able to unravel the puzzle, but it's going to take some time. With Cassini in orbit around Saturn for four years or more, we will be in an excellent position to monitor long-term variations in the radio period, as well as investigate the rotational period using other techniques," Gurnett says.

The radio sounds of Saturn's rotation -- resembling a heartbeat -- and other sounds of space can be heard by visiting Gurnett's Web site at: http://www-pw.physics.uiowa.edu/space-audio.

http://www.uiowa.edu/~ournews/2004/june/062804saturn-rotation.html

So, Saturn is more similar to the sun than the Earth... and both have been acting mysteriously lately - interesting.

And then, we have a more recent article regarding the radio periods:

[...]

For Saturn, the accepted workaround had been to analyze distortions in radio signals emitted by the planet—the signals are thought to be linked to the planet’s magnetic field.

Analysis of Saturnian radio emissions by NASA's Voyager spacecrafts during the 1980s revealed a rotation period of about 10 hours, 39 minutes and 22 seconds. But more recent radio data collected by the agency's Cassini spacecraft in 2003 and 2004 got a different number: 10 hours, 45 minutes and 45 seconds.

This discrepancy has long puzzled scientists. One explanation is that Saturn's rotation rate actually slowed down by about 6 minutes, but many scientists think this is highly unlikely.

"You can't say that Saturn itself has changed its rotation," said David Stevenson, a researcher at the California Institute of Technology who was not involved in the study. "It's just way too big."

Another possible explanation is that the radio emissions never reflected the planet's rotation period at all, but something else.

In any case, using radio signals to measure Saturn's rotation period is like relying on a substitute for a substitute: the radio signals were linked to magnetic fields that were in turn linked to the rotation of Saturn's solid core.

The new method potentially cuts out one of these steps.

Cutting out a middleman

Using magnetic field data collected by Cassini over a period of 14 months beginning in summer 2004, Giampieri and his team teased out a signal that they think is probably linked to Saturn's magnetic field rotation and thus to the planet's true rotation period.

"We saw a small spot on the blank CD," Giampieri told SPACE.com. "By looking at that, we could measure the rotation period of the magnetic field."

More studies will be needed to confirm the link between the magnetic field signal and Saturn's rotation period, Giampieri said, but so far the results look promising. Unlike the radio emissions, the magnetic field signal appears stable over time.

A precise value of Saturn's rotation period will help scientists accurately determine the speed of its atmospheric winds and the size of its solid core, which is believed to be composed of rock and ice.

"The amount of rotation gives you the amount of centrifugal force acting on the interior of the planet," Giampieri said. "That is a very important ingredient for planetary modeling."

http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/060503_saturn_day.html

So what we get is that the rotation of Saturn itself is determined by measuring these radio rotation periods, though not without problems. The hexagon shape rotates at this rate, while the atmosphere travels at a faster rate. With these recent findings and discrepancies, it could be that the rotation of Saturn as a planet is unrelated to the radio rotation periods, however.

Now, let's see if we can't find a connection to the phenomenon observed in the water cylinder experiment mentioned above.

From the abstract of the paper that the Nature article talks about:

Polygons on a Rotating Fluid Surface

Thomas R. N. Jansson,1,2 Martin P. Haspang,1,2 Kåre H. Jensen,1,2 Pascal Hersen,1 and Tomas Bohr1
1Physics Department, The Technical University of Denmark, 2800 Kongens Lyngby, Denmark
2The Niels Bohr Institute, Blegdamsvej 17, 2100 Copenhagen Ø, Denmark

(Received 1 December 2005; published 3 May 2006)

We report a novel and spectacular instability of a fluid surface in a rotating system. In a flow driven by rotating the bottom plate of a partially filled, stationary cylindrical container, the shape of the free surface can spontaneously break the axial symmetry and assume the form of a polygon rotating rigidly with a speed different from that of the plate. With water, we have observed polygons with up to 6 corners. It has been known for many years that such flows are prone to symmetry breaking, but apparently the polygonal surface shapes have never been observed. The creation of rotating internal waves in a similar setup was observed for much lower rotation rates, where the free surface remains essentially flat [J. M. Lopez et al., J. Fluid Mech. 502, 99 (2004).]. We speculate that the instability is caused by the strong azimuthal shear due to the stationary walls and that it is triggered by minute wobbling of the rotating plate.

http://scitation.aip.org/getabs/servlet/GetabsServlet?prog=normal&id=PRLTAO000096000017174502000001&idtype=cvips&gifs=yes

So, the polygon shape rotates at a DIFFERENT rate than the rotating base. Faster or slower? Can't tell, since I don't have access to the full paper. If the base of the cylinder is compared to Saturn itself, then the speed at which the hexagon shape rotates ought to be different than that of its base. So far, we see that that the hexagon shape on Saturn rotates at the rate of the radio rotation periods, which doesn't necessarily correspond to the rotation period of the planet itself. While not at all conclusive, this is at least some evidence that the two phenomena might be related.

One of the scientists wrote this in the comments section of the initial Nature article:

I have read this article carefully as well as the accompanied recent work by Jansson et al. “Polygons on a Rotating Fluid Surface� that appeared in PHYSICAL REVIEW LETTERS, vol. 96, May 3, 2006 pp. 1- 4, and here are my brief comments:

In the abstract of the previously mentioned article they mention that: “We report a novel and spectacular instability of a fluid surface in a rotating system� . The phenomenon is indeed spectacular but not novel. In 1989 we have observed and described the phenomenon in an experimental set-up that is similar to theirs, please see the original contribution, Vatistas, G.H., "A Note on Liquid Vortex Sloshing and Kelvin's Equilibria", Journal of Fluid Mechanics, vol. 217, 1990, p. 241. They also state that: “It has been known for many years that such flows are prone to symmetry breaking, but apparently the polygonal surface shapes have never been observed� . Referring to the previous citation we find that this statement is also not accurate. Subsequent to the original observations, 16 years ago, we have elaborated on several unique properties of the phenomenon, please refer to:

1. Vatistas, G. H., Wang, J., and Lin, S. "Experiments on Waves Induced in the Hollow Core of Vortices". J. Exp. Fluids, vol. 13, 1992, p.377.
2. Vatistas, G. H., Wang, J., and Lin, S. "Recent Findings on Kelvin's Equilibria", Acta Mechanica, vol. 103, 1994, p. 89.
3. Vatistas, G.H., Esmail, N., and Ravanis, C. "Wave Development in Disk-Like Nearly Inviscid Liquid Vortices", 39th AIAA Aerospace Sciences Meeting and Exhibit. Paper no. AIAA 2001-0168, 8-11 January 2001, Reno, NV.

In addition to planetary atmospheric vortices mentioned by Philip Ball, the phenomenon also appears in the Spiral Galaxies, see for example Morozov A. G. et al. "Laboratory Simulation of the Generation of the Spiral Structure of Galaxies (Theory and Experiment)", Sov. Phys. Usp, vol. 28 (1), 1985, p. 101, and Vatistas, G.H., "Double Vortex", Letter to the Editor, New Scientist, 18 December 1993, p.50.

Sincerely,
Georgios H. Vatistas
Professor of Mechanical and industrial Engineering
Concordia University, Montreal, Canada
Email:Vatistas@encs.concordia.ca

I was quite interested in seeing that this phenomenon also appears at the center of spiral galaxies! I searched for the bolded article and found this: http://www.turpion.org/php/paper.phtml?journal_id=pu&paper_id=3828
...though, again, I do not have access to be able to download and look at the actual paper. Could this interesting phenomenon be more widespread than we think?

Regarding the note above, it appears that Vatistas made this discovery long ago, as described in this article:
http://cjournal.concordia.ca/journalarchives/2006-07/feb_8/008625.shtml
His ideas were essentially hijacked by the Bohrs without proper accreditation - how unfortunate.

 

[adam7117]

Hi,

I saw this article coming up on Slashdot, too.
The first impression is of some hyperdimensional interaction. Kind of like if you had six connected rods being lasooed with a piece of string from above.

Anyways, here's some stuff from the transcripts about pentagons and hexagons:

Q: (A) You mentioned hyperspace. What is hyperspace?
A: 4th through 7th density, except 4th only perceives it, as "living in the doorway."
Q: (L) You say that stars are portals. What, specifically, are they portals for, of, from or to?
A: How about other dimension. Remember, density and dimensional concepts intersect. Density level relates more to conscious awareness, but dimensions house consciousness and all other.
Q: (L) So, you can have many 'houses' along a row at one level and many at another level, in a vague sort of way?
A: Close. Think of hyperspace as 4th dimension.
Q: (A) Now, this business that space/time geometry builds a kind of singularity, changes the algebraic structure of the metric tensor; and I was trying to relate it to changing of density at some point...
A: Yes. The answer is in the pentagon.
Q: (L) Do you mean 'pentagon' as in the government building, or as in the geometric structure?
A: Why do you suppose they are linked? Why is the "pentagon" a pentagon?
Q: (L) I don't know. Why is it?
A: Answers are within your grasp.
Q: (A) What was this answer 'yes' to the changing of density? Do you mean that it relates to what S___ was working on or that it connect to Kaluza Klein theories?
A: Both. Geometry... pentagon and hexagon, algebraic equations...

followed by

(A) I have a question: A piece from Einstein's biography says that in 1931, Einstein and Mayer re-formulated Kaluza five dimensional theory, retaining a four-dimensional space- time. I would like to know if it was a step back or a step forward when they did this?
A: Step back, then forward.
Q: (A) Next question: three weeks ago you mentioned pentagons and hexagons. I have here a pentagon and a mathematical formula under pentagon which for me, relates to a pentagon, and it has x, y, z, three dimension; time, which is one dimension, and perhaps the fifth dimension, which corresponds to the fifth. Is this association of pentagon with this mathematical symbol below correct?
A: Yes. Gravity waves, pentagon is the foundation; hexagon is the conclusion.

Then this from The Whirlpool of Charybdis, The Sirens, and The Navigator

Carbon atoms are very "happy" to form bonds with other carbon atoms. That is the basis of the famous benzene ring structure. The benzene ring is a particularly stable molecular form because the natural angles made by the four bonding carbon orbitals comfortably fit a six-sided structure - a HEXAGON!

Another mention in the Grail series:

And then, we can go beyond that to Kaluza-Klein theories in which we are adding other physical dimensions, and these other dimensions may be of space character, but they may also be of time character. And this was something that Ouspensky was contemplating. He believed that time is really three-dimensional; that there is our ordinary time, and that there is another time he called "eternity," and still another time.... So, if we look at it this way, we would have three space and three time dimensions, totaling 6, which fits into a geometric structure of a hexagon.

To what extent any of this material fits here, remains to be seen but it's still pretty cool how there's a regular hexagon out in space.

 

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I don't know/think this is actually pertinent but I was thinking about 4th density in the form of a square. If I add dimension to a box (a square drawn in 3d lines) it then has six sides instead of four. If you drew a 3d box inside doesn't it become the hyperbolic cube?

I don't know how many of you have drawn one on a flat piece of paper before but it is an interesting illusion where the entrence and exit seem to appear in the same space but facing in opposite directions if that makes sense. The only thing that does justice (IMO) is a line drawing of it which I was hoping to link to but there do not seem to be any on the net.

I'm not really sure where the five fits into my rambling here. I was thinking about the four elements and the hidden fifth but that goes into concepts of soul.. sorry I just don't go there (confidence/ignorance issue). My point being the four elements based on the symbol of the hexagram. The fifth element, "soul" being a product of the four? Further thoughts that came to mind, I only hope know one takes me for some occultist, is the dual star symbol of the unicursal hexagram.

Now I am kind of talking out of my assets but these things came to mind as I thought about some of the quotes. I thought of the unicursal hexagram as stars pointing in opposite direction in terms of sts/sto and existance/creation does not exist without the polarity.. at least on this level.. if I am grasping things within a certain context.

Glossary wrote: http://glossary.cassiopaea.com/glossary.php?id=883

Ra said that for the human level, speaking of STO vs. STS was the most appropriate terminology because humans tend to think in terms of action and its ethical basis. The concepts of absorption for STS and radiance for STO could also be used as a metaphor. At any rate, the principles are beyond words. -End Quote

The previous posts are very interesting and I hope I am not taking from the conversation with my bit of mumblery and hope that I have at least stayed in the context of this very intersting phenomena/conversation.

Also I don't fully understand this: http://photojournal.jpl.nasa.gov/catalog/PIA09188 (a link rs brought up)

The nested set of alternating white and dark hexagons indicates that the hexagonal complex extends deep into the atmosphere, at least down to the 3-Earth-atmosphere pressure level, some 75 kilometers (47 miles) underneath the clouds seen by Voyager. Multiple images acquired over a 12-day period between Oct. 30 and Nov. 11, 2006, show that the feature is nearly stationary, and likely is an unusually strong pole-encircling planetary wave that extends deep into the atmosphere. -End Quote

What is wierd to me is "the feature is nearly stationary." Is it stationary in relation to it's own spinning (the planet itself below is spinning) or in relation to its orbit around the sun (a particular side is always facing a specific direction in relation to its solar orbit)?