Scattered

[anothermagyar]

Btw, he has an online-conference, it's free on February 6-12 2015, Beyond Addiction
if somebody interested. I'm going to sign up.
You can do it on Facebook:

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Gabor-Mat%C3%A9/182983372293
https://www.facebook.com/182983372293/photos/a.10150406451702294.335423.182983372293/10152480123287294/?type=1&theater

 

[Yas]

Thank you for sharing Shijing!

For a long time, I have been called hyperactive, forgetful, lazy (and workaholic at the same time when I do focus on something), and I have had this tendency to do many small things at the same time, finally feeling that I couldn't achieve anything. These are all things that come from an early age but, at the time, ADD or ADHD weren't so popular, so people just called me all the above. :P I wouldn't say that I have this for sure, but it certainly fits the description. Also, the tendency to addictive behaviour is present...

As Gabor Maté mentions, recognizing and understanding it gives you a first step to not feel that there's something wrong with you, and then, by putting a name on it, you can start finding strategies to work on the brain patterns and the development of the areas that aren't well developed.

I also think this condition would bring a tendency to dissociation, making it difficult to work on inner issues because it's hard to keep the focus on them for enough time... It's like you just go from one thing to another and you can't stop that inner flow. So it is important to find ways of working with this in order to further grow.

For me, I have definitively noticed a major difference when I'm regular with EE and enough physical activity... when I can get into the habit of doing the breathing exercises and meditation everyday, as well as at least a few minutes of exercise, I feel my attention can be focused for more time and that thoughts don pop from one to another so quickly. I also noticed great improvement in attention when taking fish oil, and when I don't eat many carbs and have a good sleep... just as a plus. ;)

So, yeah! we have many different strategies to deal with it, as Gaby said:

Also related to addictive tendencies, someone with ADD usually works best under the influence of stimulants - whether from the body, e.g. adrenaline (connected to workaholic tendencies, and to doing important work at the last minute), or from external sources. Among the latter, I think in most cases, the best ones for us to consider (and use or not depending on the effects on each individual) are nicotine and caffeine. Anyway, in the absence of stimulants, the prefrontal cortex can be sluggish, even slowing down further when it should rouse. Stimulating it enables it to coordinate brain activity more efficiently, which brings some order to the chaos.

Like leaving a primitive vagal state of immobilization with fear to one of polyvagal social engagement. Other than benign stimulants, what comes to mind is the aid of a social network, writing, exercise, curiosity and so forth. Anything that will engage your prefrontal cortex at that moment in time. The important thing is the "super effort" to engage a higher cognitive regulation.

Thanks Gaby!

 

[Gaby]

Thanks Gaby!

I got the book as a source of inspiration for difficult times. :)

 

[Carl]

Thank you for sharing Shijing!

For a long time, I have been called hyperactive, forgetful, lazy (and workaholic at the same time when I do focus on something), and I have had this tendency to do many small things at the same time, finally feeling that I couldn't achieve anything. These are all things that come from an early age but, at the time, ADD or ADHD weren't so popular, so people just called me all the above. :P I wouldn't say that I have this for sure, but it certainly fits the description. Also, the tendency to addictive behaviour is present...

As Gabor Maté mentions, recognizing and understanding it gives you a first step to not feel that there's something wrong with you, and then, by putting a name on it, you can start finding strategies to work on the brain patterns and the development of the areas that aren't well developed.

This is similar for me in that I have never had such an accurate description of my internal landscape. The stereotype for ADD is as simple as hyperactive kids not being able to sit still in class, but this book came like a revelation that tied a few things together.

A few paradoxical behaviours of mine now make more sense, such as procrastination vs hyper focus under pressure, swinging between introvert and extravert, starting things with enthusiasm only to drop it soon after, etc.

For a while I thought that it was just from increased awareness of the types of things that Gurfjieff talked about, such as multiple I's. But after a long period of observation it appears that my personality is rather more unstable than others, with the natural process of self-regulation being somewhat absent (when I "regulate" it's more of a conscious, intellectually directed task of repression which isn't very effective).

I also think this condition would bring a tendency to dissociation, making it difficult to work on inner issues because it's hard to keep the focus on them for enough time... It's like you just go from one thing to another and you can't stop that inner flow. So it is important to find ways of working with this in order to further grow.

For me, I have definitively noticed a major difference when I'm regular with EE and enough physical activity... when I can get into the habit of doing the breathing exercises and meditation everyday, as well as at least a few minutes of exercise, I feel my attention can be focused for more time and that thoughts don pop from one to another so quickly. I also noticed great improvement in attention when taking fish oil, and when I don't eat many carbs and have a good sleep... just as a plus. ;)

Yeah. It's hard to make super efforts when the machine with which you make those efforts cannot be directed. How it feels for me a lot of the time is like the driver of the carriage trying to pull it with his bare hands, with the horses either sleeping or trying to drag us off into the wilderness.

So far I've learned that it's all about strings of small choices. If I make one silly choice then my direction changes slightly, and it becomes much easier to 'make a wrong turn'. I fully agree about good sleep and EE. Others are happy social contact, lack of inflammatory foods and lack of over-stimulation.

Also, I can't recommend cold showers enough.

 

[beetlemaniac]

Thanks for the book recommendation Shijing and for all who posted their reviews and personal experiences. The summary posted by Psalehesost was very clear. In my reading of this book, just finished it yesterday, I identified a few things which stood out:

The core idea behind Scattered is the under-development of brain structures during childhood. This happens in conditions where children are immersed in environments that disrupt their natural brain development. Parents should provide proper attunement and attachment to the child, without this, the child inevitably is plagued -- imprinted -- by feelings of shame and rejection. This can happen even in the best intentions of parents, and children with characteristics of sensitivity are particularly vulnerable. Thus, the child feels forced to work for the attention that she so desperately craves so as to avoid feeling that they are worthless and shameful beings. This need can become a compulsion as the child enters adulthood, and is commonly manifest as people-pleasing, workaholism, substance addictions, dysfunctional relationships that all feed into this need. The need ultimately does not end up being satisfied.

Personally, in many situations, this Scattered-ness presents itself as compulsive over thinking -- which seems to be harried mental activity fueled by anxiety that is triggered by the people around me. The needs of the other take center stage. Then comes the pressure to perform tasks at work -- the difficulties in gauging time, how long I would need to perform an assignment. I would also have difficulties to perform an assignment in an organized manner, instead working in a frenzy fueled by the anxiety to perform and meet deadlines. Clear-headed prioritising of tasks was also almost impossible.

Then there is also the counterwill, which is frustrating! When there is work to be done, counterwill asserts itself by avoidance of doing said work. I can actually dissuade and hoodwink myself into not doing work, using trivial reasons and so-called game-playing where it becomes a personal issue with colleagues and bosses rather than just what it is, work.

Other ideas that struck me was the problem of "identification" with the feelings and behaviours of others instead having a well-developing empathic function -- reminds me of the character of the "empath" mentioned in earlier threads (Highly Sensitive Person, Podcast with the SRT guy). In situations where people are victimised / abused, ADD-category people tend to become that person, which as Gabor Mate notes is an ineffective response in any situation. Overwhelmed by the victim feelings probably originating from "implicit memory" (emotional memory stored from childhood, mostly nonverbal and has roots in shame and rejection), the person loses any capability of responding to the situation in the now.

Sense of self is but the manifestation of electrical and chemical activity, according to Mate there is no abstract "self" per se -- in ADD patients, since the mind is so scattered from underdeveloped self-regulation, this sense of self is discontinuous, inconsistent. This impressed me as it tied into Gurdjieff's many "I's". In fact I think an ADD person is a bit worse off than the sleeping man of Gurdjieff -- there is not solid "I" to be felt, most of the time. If any, the default "I" would be one that is hungry for whatever object that strikes my fancy at the moment.

With constant application of will and affirmation of intent, coupled with a growing sense of self -- I seem to be digging myself out of this whirlwind of chaos which used to characterise my life. Daily activities that form a routine and structured lifestyle, including exercise (swimming), cooking ketogenic meals ahead of time, reading, breathing exercises all feed in to the healing process. I have also picked up a book on accupressure which helps a little in calming nervousness and sometimes also helps with my insomnia.

Other than that, an item of curiosity: Ritalin (Methylphenidate) is a medication commonly prescribed to treat ADD. Ritalin is supposed to function as a dopamine reuptake inhibitor. But on the side, it is also prescribed for postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome (POTS), symptoms of which I also commonly experience. POTS presents itself as dizziness upon standing from a sitting posture. In my case I find it is caused by deficient circulation. I presume that they may be connected in some way, but it's not really clear how.

 

[kalibex]

Then there is also the counterwill, which is frustrating! When there is work to be done, counterwill asserts itself by avoidance of doing said work. I can actually dissuade and hoodwink myself into not doing work, using trivial reasons...

Yeah...read this book recently and was...really struck by Mates description...and depressed at the thought of how much time I've wasted, being Stubborn for no real reason along with that whole 'cutting off your nose to spite your face' kind of behavior simply because an idea came, 'naggingly' from certain Authority Figures like parents. Bizzarely explains a lot. :/

 

[beetlemaniac]

Then there is also the counterwill, which is frustrating! When there is work to be done, counterwill asserts itself by avoidance of doing said work. I can actually dissuade and hoodwink myself into not doing work, using trivial reasons...

Yeah...read this book recently and was...really struck by Mates description...and depressed at the thought of how much time I've wasted, being Stubborn for no real reason along with that whole 'cutting off your nose to spite your face' kind of behavior simply because an idea came, 'naggingly' from certain Authority Figures like parents. Bizzarely explains a lot. :/

Totally, I wish I hadn't wasted all that energy through all those sad narratives characterising the helpless child within. Now I know better and will head it off when it comes again. Without having that intense focus on disobeying authority, the world opens up to you -- you're free to choose your response to the situation, and move on to the next thing.

I'm still feeling grateful for the book. I wouldn't have been able to figure out why I was plagued by this strange constellation of psychological activity by my own. It's really a godsend. I wonder about others who are suffering this silently. It's tough to see through the chaos when you're so accustomed to it being part of your daily existence.

 

[Yas]

Thanks for your post beetlemaniac! I can relate to almost every single word in it. I have the book already, but I didn't read it yet because I'm trying to finish Pierre's book now. And by the way, something like finishing a book is very hard for me too... :/

With constant application of will and affirmation of intent, coupled with a growing sense of self -- I seem to be digging myself out of this whirlwind of chaos which used to characterise my life. Daily activities that form a routine and structured lifestyle, including exercise (swimming), cooking ketogenic meals ahead of time, reading, breathing exercises all feed in to the healing process. I have also picked up a book on accupressure which helps a little in calming nervousness and sometimes also helps with my insomnia.

Yes, I think this is the way to go. I noticed that I need an organized routine in order to function better without feeling so nervous about everything I do. Then, I'm procastinating a bit with breathing and exercise, but everytime I manage to include that into my routine, I can see the difference in the level of stress that is constant in my life.

From what you're saying about the book, it seems that it gives a complementary view on the PCS (perfectionism, control and shame) personality described by Aleta Edwards in Fear of the Abyss, this one being a more neurological approach. I think that seeing both helps a lot in healing and overcoming the problem.

 

[kalibex]

...I wish I hadn't wasted all that energy through all those sad narratives characterising the helpless child within. Now I know better and will head it off when it comes again. Without having that intense focus on disobeying authority, the world opens up to you -- you're free to choose your response to the situation, and move on to the next thing.

One of the concepts that came from one of the C's sessions that I now begin to appreciate a bit more: the idea that you don't have to act against someone else, you just have to act in your own interest - if I'm recalling it correctly. One of those 'But wait; isn't that STS?!' moments at first glance, except again, if I understand/recall correctly, it was about having that stable baseline grounding/foundation that's necessary before STO is possible - maturely building it so you can be ready, instead of being constantly reactively (defensively?) 'against' the reality around you.

Though I find myself wondering: if many of us here (I could be assuming/overstating, naturally) 'identify' with this ADD symptom cluster description....do the people drawn to a group like this self-select due to having those 'issues'? IE...does any group dealing partly with gnostic concepts self-select for people with 'attachment issues'? Some of us might have identified with gnostic/4th way concepts due to how it 'explains' inner feelings of persecution in a 'Finally! We're not paranoid if 'they' really are out to get us!' kind of way. I suspect that's the case with me.

To clarify, as this was a bit of a ramble: I'm not implying that group members tend to be 'paranoid' - as much as I'm wondering if some of us found this group due to being pre-disposed to feeling constantly 'victimized' due to attachment issues. We had the built-in, unnecessary victimization complexes, self-perpetuating victimization programs.

 

[Psalehesost]

Though I find myself wondering: if many of us here (I could be assuming/overstating, naturally) 'identify' with this ADD symptom cluster description....do the people drawn to a group like this self-select due to having those 'issues'? IE...does any group dealing partly with gnostic concepts self-select for people with 'attachment issues'? Some of us might have identified with gnostic/4th way concepts due to how it 'explains' inner feelings of persecution in a 'Finally! We're not paranoid if 'they' really are out to get us!' kind of way. I suspect that's the case with me.

To clarify, as this was a bit of a ramble: I'm not implying that group members tend to be 'paranoid' - as much as I'm wondering if some of us found this group due to being pre-disposed to feeling constantly 'victimized' due to attachment issues. We had the built-in, unnecessary victimization complexes, self-perpetuating victimization programs.

Maté also describes sensitivity as being part of the ADD picture. I think that kind of sensitivity could be linked to what generally brings people here - having "something" in oneself that makes one look deeper at life and the world and not be content with the superficial answers. However, such sensitivity also makes people more susceptible to developing various issues, one of them being ADD. So, I think in many cases, what brings people here is not so much the issues themselves (though that can be the case for some), but rather something that led to both the search and (given a suboptimal environment) developing all kinds of serious baggage which must then be dealt with.

And for a related, complementary take on the role of sensitivity, you can search the forum for Positive Disintegration.

 

[Psalehesost]

Since my previous summary of the first fourth of the book, I've kept reading and nearly finished it. It has explained some patterns to the ways that things have sometimes "gone wrong" in my life.

One of these things is how, at any given time, I've been able to focus on one or a few things - a few books, a particular project, etc. - while my mind has been "unable" to focus well on other things. Then, over time, the things I've been able to focus on have shifted. That's explained by the poorly developed regulation of focus. "It" focuses on some things - or is drawn towards them - at some times, and towards other things at other times.

Counterwill also ties into this. While for some people it expresses itself a lot in reactions of resentment, in my case it's often "quiet", simply "closing down" motivation and engagement in certain directions.

Then, the part about being "driven". Often, this has led to pushing myself in various directions in which I'm not able to focus well, or my heart's "not in it". It seems that the underlying anxiety creates a search for "solutions", and then something comes to mind, and I think that I "should" do it. Sometimes it may actually be a good idea, at other times not - but regardless, I'm not pursuing it based on genuine interest, and even less on any real understanding.

In combination, these things - anxiety and fear of rejection, "drivenness", and poor regulation - also explain obsessions. When something is both of interest and seems like a "solution" to fears and insecurities - then an all-consuming hyperfocus and sense of "meaning" can develop. What I'm working on can take on such seeming importance that everything else fades from view, or keeps being put off. And it becomes hard to focus on other things. I've had to learn to check my narratives and disengage from such obsessions when they gain strength and begin to derail me.

Such obsessions can also "hijack" things that would actually be worthwhile to do in a constructive way. At times when this has happened, priorities have become skewed and I've ended up working relentlessly on some aspect that wasn't actually so important, to the detriment of the project as a whole. It all turned into an addictive "fix". After a time away, working through what happened and re-evaluating priorities, I could then become more level-headed - and if the project was worthwhile, sometimes I resumed it and took it in a more sensible direction.

The scattared-mindedness also seems, for me, to tie into dubious intuitions. Over the years, I've been fooled many times by some compelling sense that this or that is either "a great solution" or thing to do, or perhaps something "bad and to be avoided". Such "intuitions" tend to shift - along with the little "I"s that produce them. This is another thing that can cause tunnel-vision and keep endeavors going in circles. What's needed is to really engage System 2 and question it all - and ask others for input as needed - to arrive at a more objective view.

 

[Divide by Zero]

Maté also describes sensitivity as being part of the ADD picture. I think that kind of sensitivity could be linked to what generally brings people here - having "something" in oneself that makes one look deeper at life and the world and not be content with the superficial answers. However, such sensitivity also makes people more susceptible to developing various issues, one of them being ADD. So, I think in many cases, what brings people here is not so much the issues themselves (though that can be the case for some), but rather something that led to both the search and (given a suboptimal environment) developing all kinds of serious baggage which must then be dealt with.

And for a related, complementary take on the role of sensitivity, you can search the forum for Positive Disintegration.

I recently finished this book and it opened up a lot of interesting ideas.

So, those who aren't sensitive- or are able to bury it deep, are in a form reaction machines. Perhaps it is an OP thing, to follow authority and feel connected that way. The drawback is that the psychopaths lead them - giving the psychopaths power by "ruling" people.

On the other hand, the idea of a soul, self-awareness - brings sensitivity which can be overwhelming in this society as Mate explains with parents having a hard time in giving their children what they need. This probably has been planned by STS through time loops and such, to plan their "victory" for when the wave comes. The C's said they will fail- because they can only see what they want to see.

The story of the phoenix rising up from the ashes is symbolic of this rebirth for sensitive people who come out of this confusion and relearn what was denied them. Instead of being lucky to get the right conditions for this growth, the work means that they themselves are a part of this process.

This sounds opposite to STS which seeks to change the past in order to be where they are now, which sounds like supreme wishful thinking and a big violation of their own free will (and why they seek to "eat" free will).

I keep getting amazed at how many things connect and what the C's said in the last sessions seem to give us this new found hope in something to be a part of- which starts now.

 

[hesperides]

Though I find myself wondering: if many of us here (I could be assuming/overstating, naturally) 'identify' with this ADD symptom cluster description....do the people drawn to a group like this self-select due to having those 'issues'? IE...does any group dealing partly with gnostic concepts self-select for people with 'attachment issues'? Some of us might have identified with gnostic/4th way concepts due to how it 'explains' inner feelings of persecution in a 'Finally! We're not paranoid if 'they' really are out to get us!' kind of way. I suspect that's the case with me.

To clarify, as this was a bit of a ramble: I'm not implying that group members tend to be 'paranoid' - as much as I'm wondering if some of us found this group due to being pre-disposed to feeling constantly 'victimized' due to attachment issues. We had the built-in, unnecessary victimization complexes, self-perpetuating victimization programs.

Maté also describes sensitivity as being part of the ADD picture. I think that kind of sensitivity could be linked to what generally brings people here - having "something" in oneself that makes one look deeper at life and the world and not be content with the superficial answers. However, such sensitivity also makes people more susceptible to developing various issues, one of them being ADD. So, I think in many cases, what brings people here is not so much the issues themselves (though that can be the case for some), but rather something that led to both the search and (given a suboptimal environment) developing all kinds of serious baggage which must then be dealt with.

And for a related, complementary take on the role of sensitivity, you can search the forum for Positive Disintegration.

I subscribe to what you are describing in the bold part. It brings us back again to the fact that when truth seekers are just about to find out they have no free will, and particularly those more sensitive and with ADD, the tricky mind may suggest any kind of victimization scenario. Whether this is due to attachment or not I think it isn´t the real issue because in the end we choose it at one point due to our very affinity with it. After all, what an astute idea this attachment mechanism as it offers an opportunity to raise our awareness about some of our recurrent maladaptive patterns.

 

[A Jay]

Thanks for your post beetlemaniac! I can relate to almost every single word in it.

Same here!

The core idea behind Scattered is the under-development of brain structures during childhood. This happens in conditions where children are immersed in environments that disrupt their natural brain development. Parents should provide proper attunement and attachment to the child, without this, the child inevitably is plagued -- imprinted -- by feelings of shame and rejection. This can happen even in the best intentions of parents, and children with characteristics of sensitivity are particularly vulnerable. Thus, the child feels forced to work for the attention that she so desperately craves so as to avoid feeling that they are worthless and shameful beings.

My room mates and I did EE last night, and in the first few breathes of the Ba-Ha portion I had very intense feelings of sadness, rejection, shame, longing, anger, and embarrassment come up in regards to my fairly absent workaholic father. Just before the point of bursting into tears, the feelings dissipated. It was one of the most visceral emotional experiences I've had, and it's interesting the timing of having this experience and coming upon this thread that puts them into a context that explains some of the things I've noticed about myself. Thanks everyone for sharing, I will be ordering the book shortly!

 

[beetlemaniac]

Thanks for your post beetlemaniac! I can relate to almost every single word in it.

Same here!

The core idea behind Scattered is the under-development of brain structures during childhood. This happens in conditions where children are immersed in environments that disrupt their natural brain development. Parents should provide proper attunement and attachment to the child, without this, the child inevitably is plagued -- imprinted -- by feelings of shame and rejection. This can happen even in the best intentions of parents, and children with characteristics of sensitivity are particularly vulnerable. Thus, the child feels forced to work for the attention that she so desperately craves so as to avoid feeling that they are worthless and shameful beings.

My room mates and I did EE last night, and in the first few breathes of the Ba-Ha portion I had very intense feelings of sadness, rejection, shame, longing, anger, and embarrassment come up in regards to my fairly absent workaholic father. Just before the point of bursting into tears, the feelings dissipated. It was one of the most visceral emotional experiences I've had, and it's interesting the timing of having this experience and coming upon this thread that puts them into a context that explains some of the things I've noticed about myself. Thanks everyone for sharing, I will be ordering the book shortly!

Funny you should mention that about your father. I also experience a certain degree of anger when interacting with my dad especially when he wants something from me -- that implicit emotion again! The same, he was a workaholic and mostly absent, a member of the medical profession, as Gabor himself is. I would describe my relationship as fairly detached -- my father almost feels like a shadow of a person now. Feels like he is absent even when he is physically there. He dissociated a lot when interacting with me. He would at times just stare into me blankly -- that would really irritate me. But it's also true that I picked up that habit myself. I hope things may get better but I don't want to give in to my wishful thinking. I can only try to improve myself by understanding how the past has molded me and try to break out of that mold -- freely choosing how I am living my life right now.