several questions about validity

[walkingon]

I've read a decent amount of material related to this site, including all of the transcripts, montalk's site, the ra channelings, Beelzebub's tales to his Grandson, In Search of the Miraculous, the Gnosis series, and most of this site with an open mind. I'm very familiar with this stuff, though I don't believe the really far fetched stuff (the c's transmissions, aliens, NWO, illuminati, conspiracy, etc, etc)


1) What makes Laura or Ark, or anyone else for that matter, "evolved" to the point where people on this forum ought to look up to them?

2) How does anyone know for certain that Laura and Ark are not merely narcissists, who get a kick out of a establishing a cult like control over a number of individuals? This site emphasizes objectivity, but how do you know you are not being led astray to think that you are being objective when you are in fact doing the opposite?

3) How do you know that believing in this stuff, or even spending an immense amount of time on it is not just a reflection of your own interior defense mechanisms? How do you know that you're not just hiding yourself behind all of this conspiracy stuff to avoid facing the way things really ARE? It's easy to use your imagination so as to fuel your own grandiosity and establish some kind of importance, but most of the time this is done as a way of rectifying a severely damaged ego.

4) All of the main conspiracy theories on this site cannot, and most likely will not, be proven in your life time. So why do you accept them as true, or having some validity? You can hide behind conspiracy theories, and gurdjieff, and the fourth way and all of these things that make you feel special for knowing them, but there is no way for you to verify their validity.

5) If anyone has a problem with my questions, or this post, then it proves to me further that the primary thesis of this site is inherently false ,and is merely the construction of some ego-maniacal narcissists who think they are special for some reason and have the ability to "unite good souls" and "save the world" or help people who "deserve" to go to "fourth density" based on karama, which has never been verified? (quite an arrogant presumption)

6) Why do people on this forum suck up to Laura and Ark, rather than challenging them for an intellectual debate? And if I read Gurdjieff and Mouravieff correctly, their philosophy encourages building strength of inner character and individuality, so why would anyone give these things up to people like Laura and Ark who have never even demonstrated their "superiority" to the rest of the human race? If you're going to follow the fourth way, maybe it's more important to be firm and stick up for yourself, rather than blindly following the ideas of people who have never qualified themselves, never backed up anything they have said, and never given any proof for their assertions.

7) I agree with the basis of Gurdjieff's and Mouravieff's teachings, but this site shows that most are misinterpreting the teachings and instead succumbing to weakness and the blind acceptance of values and ideas that have yet to be verified.

 

[SilverJeep]

RELEASE THE HOUNDS!!!!!!! :)

 

[Gonzo]

Hi WaIkington,

It is generally asked that new members leave a message in the newbies forum to introduce themselves, explaining the path they took to get here, what they've read in terms of psychology, Laura's works, esoteric books, etc. This helps people formulate an advanced sense of who you are and why you are here.


I have to say the way you assume that if anyone has a problem with your post somehow validates something.

I could only think that it would validate the fact that some had a problem with your post and nothing more. This is, after all, a group of individuals with their own minds, freely associating to research and discuss relevant information.

It is totally fair and understandable to come here with doubts, but I sense something beyond mere doubts in your multi-pointed post.

Are you here to share, to genuinely understand something, or are you here with an agenda that contravenes the purpose of this private forum?

I, personally, will know by how you respond whether I wish to invest any energy beyond what I have already spent reading your post.

Regards,
Gonzo

 

[anart]

I've read a decent amount of material related to this site, including all of the transcripts, montalk's site, the ra channelings, Beelzebub's tales to his Grandson, In Search of the Miraculous, the Gnosis series, and most of this site with an open mind. I'm very familiar with this stuff, though I don't believe the really far fetched stuff (the c's transmissions, aliens, NWO, illuminati, conspiracy, etc, etc)

Well, montalk's site is not related to this site, though a lot of disgruntled people end up on this forum from montalk's site, so perhaps this is another instance of that. Interesting that you would have read all of that material and still consider the observable, objective, data regarding conspiracy, NWO, aliens, etc etc, as you put it, as 'really far fetched stuff'. That's a lot of time and reading to put into something you don't buy into. Doesn't make much sense, really.

1) What makes Laura or Ark, or anyone else for that matter, "evolved" to the point where people on this forum ought to look up to them?

There are two problems with this question. The first is that anyone would have to be 'evolved' to be considered a worthwhile source of information. That's not true. The second problem with this question is the idea that Laura and Ark are 'looked up to'. What does that mean, exactly? You seem to be implying there is some sort of guru dynamic in place here which is simply not the case. If there is a guru here, it is the entire Network. If you are as familiar with this material as you claim to be, you'd likely have figured that part out.

2) How does anyone know for certain that Laura and Ark are not merely narcissists, who get a kick out of a establishing a cult like control over a number of individuals?

There are two problems with this question as well. First off, no one knows anything for certain about anything - though as a Network we are approaching 'knowing' about many things. The second problem is that there is no 'cult-like control' over anyone here by anyone here. Your agenda, however, is becoming quite clear.

This site emphasizes objectivity, but how do you know you are not being led astray to think that you are being objective when you are in fact doing the opposite?

The only way to know such a thing is to constantly gather data of all kinds to check, double check and triple check things. That is the Aim. What is your Aim?

3) How do you know that believing in this stuff, or even spending an immense amount of time on it is not just a reflection of your own interior defense mechanisms? How do you know that you're not just hiding yourself behind all of this conspiracy stuff to avoid facing the way things really ARE? It's easy to use your imagination so as to fuel your own grandiosity and establish some kind of importance, but most of the time this is done as a way of rectifying a severely damaged ego.

This question doesn't make much sense. It presumes that 'this conspiracy stuff' is not exactly how things ARE. This is not only an assumption, it is contrary to all available data. It seems that your ego is threatened by this material, thus your appearance here with rather bizarre questions designed not to be answered, but to accuse.

4) All of the main conspiracy theories on this site cannot, and most likely will not, be proven in your life time.

Sez who? ;)

So why do you accept them as true, or having some validity?

Simply gathering data, walkingon. All data - even that which makes you uncomfortable enough to make subtle accusations.

You can hide behind conspiracy theories, and gurdjieff, and the fourth way and all of these things that make you feel special for knowing them, but there is no way for you to verify their validity.

At this point, I think you might be projecting. How would one 'hide behind conspiracy theories'. It makes little sense. Perhaps you were using this information as a way to escape from your unhappy personal life circumstances? Were you reading this all as a way to not look at your own life? I'm just curious because it's a rather unusual conclusion to come to unless you are projecting.

5) If anyone has a problem with my questions, or this post, then it proves to me further that the primary thesis of this site is inherently false

LOL - apologies but that statement is hilarious. You are attempting to define the terms of the discussion after writing subtly accusatory comments. This is an example of pathological behavior. May I ask how old you are?

,and is merely the construction of some ego-maniacal narcissists who think they are special for some reason and have the ability to "unite good souls" and "save the world" or help people who "deserve" to go to "fourth density" based on karama, which has never been verified? (quite an arrogant presumption)

Again, it appears that you are having some anger issues that relate to the information you have encountered. It might be more beneficial for you to discuss this with a mental health professional.

6) Why do people on this forum suck up to Laura and Ark, rather than challenging them for an intellectual debate?

I'm unaware of anyone who 'sucks up to' anyone here, much less Laura and Ark. Discussions are encouraged on this forum and take place every day. Debates are not encouraged because debates have less to do with the truth than they do with ego and rhetoric. If you had spent as much time here as you say, you might have picked up on that.

And if I read Gurdjieff and Mouravieff correctly, their philosophy encourages building strength of inner character and individuality, so why would anyone give these things up to people like Laura and Ark who have never even demonstrated their "superiority" to the rest of the human race?

Gurdjieff repeatedly states that no one can awaken alone, thus the necessity of a Network. Have you read Gurdjieff? No one 'gives anything up' to Laura and Ark. It really would be helpful if you could become more familiar with Laura and Ark and how things work here before writing an accusatory post based on complete fabrications.

If you're going to follow the fourth way, maybe it's more important to be firm and stick up for yourself, rather than blindly following the ideas of people who have never qualified themselves, never backed up anything they have said, and never given any proof for their assertions.

It appears you are wholly unfamiliar with the Fourth Way. Could I, again, ask how old you are?

7) I agree with the basis of Gurdjieff's and Mouravieff's teachings, but this site shows that most are misinterpreting the teachings and instead succumbing to weakness and the blind acceptance of values and ideas that have yet to be verified.

It is rather difficult for you to agree with something you do not understand. I think you really might quite enjoy Gurdjieff's writings, if you have the time to read them. The idea that a man who requires proof will never be satisfied with what is provided is an interesting one...

 

[anart]

RELEASE THE HOUNDS!!!!!!! :)

Hi silverjeep, do you know 'walkingon'?

 

[Gimpy]

1) What makes Laura or Ark, or anyone else for that matter, "evolved" to the point where people on this forum ought to look up to them?

Nothing. And I don't look up to Laura and Ark. We see pretty even 'cause I'm a little taller. ;D

2) How does anyone know for certain that Laura and Ark are not merely narcissists, who get a kick out of a establishing a cult like control over a number of individuals? This site emphasizes objectivity, but how do you know you are not being led astray to think that you are being objective when you are in fact doing the opposite?

Through long Observation and interaction.

3) How do you know that believing in this stuff, or even spending an immense amount of time on it is not just a reflection of your own interior defense mechanisms? How do you know that you're not just hiding yourself behind all of this conspiracy stuff to avoid facing the way things really ARE? It's easy to use your imagination so as to fuel your own grandiosity and establish some kind of importance, but most of the time this is done as a way of rectifying a severely damaged ego.

You are proving the further you write that you are the best example of everything you are accusing this forum of.

4) All of the main conspiracy theories on this site cannot, and most likely will not, be proven in your life time. So why do you accept them as true, or having some validity? You can hide behind conspiracy theories, and gurdjieff, and the fourth way and all of these things that make you feel special for knowing them, but there is no way for you to verify their validity.

See number 3.

5) If anyone has a problem with my questions, or this post, then it proves to me further that the primary thesis of this site is inherently false ,and is merely the construction of some ego-maniacal narcissists who think they are special for some reason and have the ability to "unite good souls" and "save the world" or help people who "deserve" to go to "fourth density" based on karama, which has never been verified? (quite an arrogant presumption)

See number 3.

6) Why do people on this forum suck up to Laura and Ark, rather than challenging them for an intellectual debate? And if I read Gurdjieff and Mouravieff correctly, their philosophy encourages building strength of inner character and individuality, so why would anyone give these things up to people like Laura and Ark who have never even demonstrated their "superiority" to the rest of the human race? If you're going to follow the fourth way, maybe it's more important to be firm and stick up for yourself, rather than blindly following the ideas of people who have never qualified themselves, never backed up anything they have said, and never given any proof for their assertions.

See number 3.

7) I agree with the basis of Gurdjieff's and Mouravieff's teachings, but this site shows that most are misinterpreting the teachings and instead succumbing to weakness and the blind acceptance of values and ideas that have yet to be verified.

See number 3.


Next time you post, leave the clown shoes and noise makers at home.

 

[Oxajil]

I've read a decent amount of material related to this site, including all of the transcripts, montalk's site, the ra channelings, Beelzebub's tales to his Grandson, In Search of the Miraculous, the Gnosis series, and most of this site with an open mind. I'm very familiar with this stuff, though I don't believe the really far fetched stuff (the c's transmissions, aliens, NWO, illuminati, conspiracy, etc, etc)

Can I have a laugh with you guys?

 

[Richs]

I've read a decent amount of material related to this site, including all of the transcripts, montalk's site, the ra channelings, Beelzebub's tales to his Grandson, In Search of the Miraculous, the Gnosis series, and most of this site with an open mind. I'm very familiar with this stuff, though I don't believe the really far fetched stuff (the c's transmissions, aliens, NWO, illuminati, conspiracy, etc, etc)

Can I have a laugh with you guys?

Sure! Laugh away!!!

Seriously though... walkington, if you disagree so much with what you find here, why in blazes ARE you here?

 

[Chu]

It is always very interesting (and funny and sad at the same time) to see someone arrive to this forum claiming to "have read" so much about it all (thus, having nothing to learn), but making no mention of actually having read (much less understood) the work they are attacking so strongly (in this case, Laura's and Ark's) "with an open mind".

Very interesting...

 

[vinny]

I've read a decent amount of material related to this site, including all of the transcripts, montalk's site, the ra channelings, Beelzebub's tales to his Grandson, In Search of the Miraculous, the Gnosis series, and most of this site with an open mind. I'm very familiar with this stuff, though I don't believe the really far fetched stuff (the c's transmissions, aliens, NWO, illuminati, conspiracy, etc, etc)

you don't believe in conspiracies. wait... what!?

that not one single thing is ever planned by more than one person behind closed doors, with vested interests that need to be concealed. not even Enron?

5) If anyone has a problem with my questions, or this post, then it proves to me further that the primary thesis of this site is inherently false

interesting, so, let me see, that would mean... If you have a problem with my reply, or this post then that proves to me further that your primary thesis is inherently false. You see?

7) I agree with the basis of Gurdjieff's and Mouravieff's teachings.

it seems that you really don't.

From your comments, despite your extensive reading, it seems that you really need a pretty drastic overhaul of your most basic understandings.

 

[ark]

1) What makes Laura or Ark, or anyone else for that matter, "evolved" to the point where people on this forum ought to look up to them?

Nothing. I am not evolved. I am involved. Most of the time in mathematics and physics. Laura is involved in more humanistic subjects. Yet we had an idea and also the guts to create this forum, with a particular profile that corresponds to our knowledge.

2) How does anyone know for certain that Laura and Ark are not merely narcissists, who get a kick out of a establishing a cult like control over a number of individuals? This site emphasizes objectivity, but how do you know you are not being led astray to think that you are being objective when you are in fact doing the opposite?

No one knows for certain, but because we are real people most of the data can be verified - if one only wishes to take the effort. Which we encourage.

3) How do you know that believing in this stuff, or even spending an immense amount of time on it is not just a reflection of your own interior defense mechanisms? How do you know that you're not just hiding yourself behind all of this conspiracy stuff to avoid facing the way things really ARE? It's easy to use your imagination so as to fuel your own grandiosity and establish some kind of importance, but most of the time this is done as a way of rectifying a severely damaged ego.

We are repeatedly discouraging "believing". We repeatedly encourage learning from as many sources as possible, verifying the sources, and readjusting the working hypotheses with each bit of reliable new data. Not so many forums that I know about are propagating such an approach. So, we are in the minority.

4) All of the main conspiracy theories on this site cannot, and most likely will not, be proven in your life time. So why do you accept them as true, or having some validity? You can hide behind conspiracy theories, and gurdjieff, and the fourth way and all of these things that make you feel special for knowing them, but there is no way for you to verify their validity.

Here you are assuming, you are stating a hypothesis. It is much easier to state a hypothesis than to prove it. You are also making a mistake. We are not accepting as true any conspiracy theory. But some of them are more probable than other and it is natural that we concentrate on those that we consider as having sufficient probability to justify the concentration on gathering more data. To gather more data, feedback is needed, and the only way to get lot of feedback is by appealing to a large audience. This is what we do.

5) If anyone has a problem with my questions, or this post, then it proves to me further that the primary thesis of this site is inherently false ,and is merely the construction of some ego-maniacal narcissists who think they are special for some reason and have the ability to "unite good souls" and "save the world" or help people who "deserve" to go to "fourth density" based on karama, which has never been verified? (quite an arrogant presumption)

Again, you seem to be assuming that anyone could have a problem with your questions. There is nothing particularly original about your questions. They have been asked more than once. But, on the other hand, your questions gives me one more opportunity to repeat what has been explained here repeatedly. So, thanks.

6) Why do people on this forum suck up to Laura and Ark, rather than challenging them for an intellectual debate? And if I read Gurdjieff and Mouravieff correctly, their philosophy encourages building strength of inner character and individuality, so why would anyone give these things up to people like Laura and Ark who have never even demonstrated their "superiority" to the rest of the human race? If you're going to follow the fourth way, maybe it's more important to be firm and stick up for yourself, rather than blindly following the ideas of people who have never qualified themselves, never backed up anything they have said, and never given any proof for their assertions.

We have designed this forum not for an intellectual debate on any subject whatsoever. There are quite many so called intellectual debates that lead nowhere and that give the participants the illusion that there is some progress. We are encouraging certain topics and discouraging other topics. Every forum , every publisher, has a particular profile. Some specialize in art, some in history, some in exact sciences etc. We specialize in what we call "marriage of science and the mysterious". Part of the profile is also a specialized view on history, politics etc. If someone doesn't like one scientific journal, one chooses another. If one does not like the profile of our forum, one is free to choose a different forum.

7) I agree with the basis of Gurdjieff's and Mouravieff's teachings, but this site shows that most are misinterpreting the teachings and instead succumbing to weakness and the blind acceptance of values and ideas that have yet to be verified.

This is nothing but your opinion. Opinions without detailed supporting and valid argumentation have zero value. I am sure you know about it. So I wonder why, nevertheless, at the very start, you are seriously risking your reputation this way?

 

[Laura]

As one of our tekkies once wrote as advice to those who get banned from this forum:

I once heard freedom of expression described as "the soul's right to breathe", I like that description and I believe it to be true. Everyone has the right to express themselves however they want. There is of course a small little thing you may or may not have considered, it is mostly a semantic issue; that is, how you define a BBS or Forum on the internet. If someone came into your living room, should they be permitted to say and act as they like, regardless of your home, family, religion, and rights? Should someone's rights, in your own home, take precedence over your rights? I think not. This forum requires that you register to participate, consider that a front door, and each forum and thread a room in our house. Make yourselves at home and feel comfortable, but at the end of the day, you are in our house, and what we say goes, and that, as they say is that. While you have the freedom to express yourself, so do we, and we choose to express ourselves via the ban button. It's just so easy to click, pretty button...

This is not a democracy...

This board is not a democracy, it does not claim to be, nor will it ever be. I personally do not consider democracy to be the highest, or most elevated form of governance. All men are not created equal, and everyone isn't a special unique snowflake of super specialness. Most organizations claim equality where none exists, at least we are up front about our position. What we say is law, and we reserve the right to make exceptions and dispensations as we please, and if you don't like it, there's the door, no one will stop you from leaving, in fact, we will help you pack.

What you can do about it...

Please feel free to find another board, there are thousands, perhaps millions out there and one of them, at least, will let you do what you need or want to do. On the other hand, why not start your own? You can use punbb, or PHPBB, or inVision Powerboard etc.

How to see things...

If you get banned, don't feel bad or angry. It's due to one of two things, you weren't ready for us, or we weren't ready for you. Either way, someone isn't ready to participate. If you feel that our puny brains just aren't ready for your tumescent thinking organ, then it's probably true, and your wise and pithy words would be lost on our underdeveloped psyches, obviously you will need to search for greener pastures, somewhere else, somewhere far, far away.

 

[EGVG]

I've read a decent amount of material related to this site, including all of the transcripts, montalk's site, the ra channelings, Beelzebub's tales to his Grandson, In Search of the Miraculous, the Gnosis series, and most of this site with an open mind. I'm very familiar with this stuff, though I don't believe the really far fetched stuff (the c's transmissions, aliens, NWO, illuminati, conspiracy, etc, etc)


1) What makes Laura or Ark, or anyone else for that matter, "evolved" to the point where people on this forum ought to look up to them?

2) How does anyone know for certain that Laura and Ark are not merely narcissists, who get a kick out of a establishing a cult like control over a number of individuals? This site emphasizes objectivity, but how do you know you are not being led astray to think that you are being objective when you are in fact doing the opposite?

3) How do you know that believing in this stuff, or even spending an immense amount of time on it is not just a reflection of your own interior defense mechanisms? How do you know that you're not just hiding yourself behind all of this conspiracy stuff to avoid facing the way things really ARE? It's easy to use your imagination so as to fuel your own grandiosity and establish some kind of importance, but most of the time this is done as a way of rectifying a severely damaged ego.

4) All of the main conspiracy theories on this site cannot, and most likely will not, be proven in your life time. So why do you accept them as true, or having some validity? You can hide behind conspiracy theories, and gurdjieff, and the fourth way and all of these things that make you feel special for knowing them, but there is no way for you to verify their validity.

5) If anyone has a problem with my questions, or this post, then it proves to me further that the primary thesis of this site is inherently false ,and is merely the construction of some ego-maniacal narcissists who think they are special for some reason and have the ability to "unite good souls" and "save the world" or help people who "deserve" to go to "fourth density" based on karama, which has never been verified? (quite an arrogant presumption)

6) Why do people on this forum suck up to Laura and Ark, rather than challenging them for an intellectual debate? And if I read Gurdjieff and Mouravieff correctly, their philosophy encourages building strength of inner character and individuality, so why would anyone give these things up to people like Laura and Ark who have never even demonstrated their "superiority" to the rest of the human race? If you're going to follow the fourth way, maybe it's more important to be firm and stick up for yourself, rather than blindly following the ideas of people who have never qualified themselves, never backed up anything they have said, and never given any proof for their assertions.

7) I agree with the basis of Gurdjieff's and Mouravieff's teachings, but this site shows that most are misinterpreting the teachings and instead succumbing to weakness and the blind acceptance of values and ideas that have yet to be verified.

Where you conscious when you read all that material? Don't you have values, knowledge, intellect? I think that if you have some, then you probably wouldn't post something like this.

EDU

 

[Guardian]

2) How does anyone know for certain that Laura and Ark are not merely narcissists,

You mean aside from the fact that narcissists don't usually come in sets?

who get a kick out of a establishing a cult like control over a number of individuals?

Oh would you trolls PLEASEEEE just knock it off with the "cult" crap?? Here's a cluebrick for ya sunshine....if there's a little "X" in the upper right hand corner, it's not a "cult" ... it's a COMPUTER! Anything you can turn off with less effort than it takes to pick your nose does not even remotely qualify as a "cult"

 

[SilverJeep]

RELEASE THE HOUNDS!!!!!!! :)

Hi silverjeep, do you know 'walkingon'?

Nope, just could see all this coming. Had to go make popcorn.