Show #47 - American Heart of Darkness: Robert Kirkconnell Interview

"How was it for You Ark to meet real America? "

Strange.

"What was Your greatest discovery about real Americans, real America?"

Mind control.

"What kind of lies You discovered You believed about that country and people?"

I do not want believe in anything. I want to know!

Well, I know I am not completely serious here, but your question are not specific enough for me to be completely serious (though I am never completely serious, even when I try to answer my own questions).

But I have learned a lot in America. Enough to be happy to be now somewhere else, to learn other things. All is lessons.

If you have some more specific questions - do not hesitate, ask.
 
How to handle with Polish people who from the beginning see America as these Good?

I mean, how to make good introduction, what make as point, in order to show that there are other aspects of America pointing to something completely different than mere propaganda proclaims. What kind of data use and how to encourage (without being too intrusive) look at the data, having to deal with such Poles?
 
Well, I have similar experiences. Born in Soviet Armenia, moved to U.S. when I was 8. Grew up and lived in U.S. for 31 years. Came back to Armenia -- will be 8 years this summer. VOA experience in Soviet Union was similar to what PoB said: "forbidden fruit."

In my first years of school in the U.S. I realized how similar the brainwashing system was to the U.S.S.R., except a whole lot more sophisticated. By the time of the first Gulf War, I was saying that there's so little difference between the two that it is likely that within the next couple of decades or so, the U.S. would also collapse from the weight of its own corruption and destructiveness.

Now, here in Armenia, I've had conversations with people who have a distorted image of the US and the West. When they find out my experiences and that I lived most of my life in the US, many actually have realizations that there's lots of propaganda planted here and others knowingly or unknowingly spread it around. I tell them about the corruption, the fascist control of everything, the super-militarization, etc. I tell them there's corruption everywhere, except that in the US and the West you have to add many zeros to the amounts that are being stolen from the common people and it's much more systematic, making the kind of corruption here child's play.

I also tell them to look back 20 or so years where this country was and where it has come. Really, improvements that are hard to describe. And I suggest that the only way that could have happened is that there was the political will in the last 10 years or so and the competent know-how to do it. I can't imagine any other way this happened. If just left to it's own inertia, it would still be as bad as couple of decades ago, or have gotten even worse. If there were the type of elite that ruled just after the Soviet collapse, it would likely be much worse than it was even then. Whereas if you look back a similar time span on the US and the West, it's exactly the opposite picture in terms of how much worse everything, EVERYTHING, has gotten.

It's a bit different in each ex-Soviet block country, but maybe sharing experiences could shed some light on these issues.
 
I thank all of you for this most interesting discussion. My wife is Palestinian. When she was 16 she wrote a letter to President Lyndon Johnson telling him that she was tired of the U.S. dropping bombs, via Israel, on her family and people. She also stated that she wanted her family to come to the U.S. and somehow that happened. She has always had this love/hate relationship with the U.S. ever since. Both she and her brother graduated from college, and both have been very successful. She views with disgust and contempt the genocidal actions that the U.S. takes against Palestinians and many other peoples. She told me the only time she saw her father cry was going through immigrations when they would not let him put down that he was born in Jerusalem, Palestine. They said it did not exist even when he pointed it out on his birth certificate. She told me that when he would repeat the story he would put his fingers drawn together up to his lips and say, "They won't even let me have the word..." Yes, there is opportunity here, but it comes at a cost.

I also recall and young women, Lebanese, who recited a poem she wrote titled, "We will give you freedom if you promise not to use it" in response to when she would protest about injustice, Americans would tell her "If she doesn't like it here to go back where she came from."
 
Somewhere I ran across the analogy, "Propaganda is to democracies as the bludgeon is to dictatorships..." If you want to control people in a democracy, you have to trick them, hence we have the most sophisticated propaganda in Great Britain and the U.S. It is intriguing and I went into it and where it came from in my book. Another surprise for me was the control over publishing in the U.S. and actually world wide by the CIA. All they have to do is find out who actually makes the decision on what gets published and get next to that person. Bribery or blackmail, sometimes both, usually does the trick. They don't have to burn the book that does not get published. This is why the power control group is so ticked off about self-publishing.

One handy thing about having a family name like mine is that it is truly one family. Everyone named Kirkconnell is related and many live in the Caribbean, Honduras, Venezuela, etc., descended from an ensign in the British navy who was shipwrecked off the coast of Cuba about 150 years ago. He never made it back to the British Isles, and we guess he was quite prolific, given the number of his descendants in the Americas. We stay in touch and many in the U.S. help some of the less prosperous in some of the poorer countries with coming here. Most of the less prosperous Kirkconnells are pretty desperate and just don't care a whole lot if they publish a book or not. They are attracted by the opportunity to start a business or whatever.

I do have to say that this is still a country where you can do that, and that is not the case in a lot of countries. Also access to capital is something that is fairly unique and goes hand in hand with startup businesses. So sometimes when I am talking with them about some of the drawbacks to the U.S., they just do not want to hear it, and really I can understand that. It usually isn't until many years later that reality sets in.
 
Hi Lux,
lux said:
How to handle with Polish people who from the beginning see America as these Good?

I mean, how to make good introduction, what make as point, in order to show that there are other aspects of America pointing to something completely different than mere propaganda proclaims. What kind of data use and how to encourage (without being too intrusive) look at the data, having to deal with such Poles?
Click to expand...

I have hypothesis that everyone has some crack or some gate in him/her which may enable to enter new way of thinking.
However this is not only about seeing America right?
Short example:
There are some social divisions in Poland. Recently one of quite strong ones was in politics for supporters of political party PiS (Law and Justice) and PO (Civic Platform). Especially after PiS which was believed to be popular party, won in 2005, we could felt that emotional load of this is much greater then previous elections. In my work some people were ridiculing PiS others were ridiculing PO but this was aggressive type of laughter. People could not get rid of their beliefs about one another. My friend from work she was so strongly emotionally involved in this struggle on top that her talk was reflection of what is going on in Parliament. For me it was sad that a lot of people like her (I still like her because she is good woman) had fallen into some believers state and were protecting their world view as religious dogma. Frightening also.
While I was expressing skepticism for both and trying to be objective however this was treated as support for PiS so I could feel on my own skin what does it mean to be labeled and treated accordingly :).

For me question is: How to talk with religious convictions? I have some friends who are skeptical with the view of America created in our minds. One lived there for 3 years so he experienced reality and You have to be really strong believer to ignore facts. One is just open minded and enjoys seeking truth in his own way. My other friends have experienced so much suffering that they lost their religious attitude for what delivered through our media and this opened them (or so I think) for seeing facts and interpret them in their own way. Another one was not afraid of being different (in her special way) and this was also making her attitude of an outsider and then it is easier to not follow official stories and use own mind (think so).

There are probably other ways. I just imagine that completely intellectual way of starting to doubt in own abilities is for example Gorilla experiment or similar. Starting to doubt is opening the gate.

Anyway coming back to Your question lux
What kind of data use and how to encourage (without being too intrusive) look at the data
Click to expand...
I do not know. And I think that is something related to Free Will. ??? My poor friends who believe I think shall not be forced to change. They should choose it. They should have opportunity to get truth. What kind of data it probably depends on each individual. My "white rabbit" was "Pentagon Strike" - Thank You so much for this!!!!!!!!!!!!! The one who led me there was my sister although she was not interested in this forum.

One more example: My mother is one of the greatest believers I know. Even facts are difficult to convince her. Pope, Church, Bible, Priest - are the oracles. I just can imagine what would have happend if she just allowed herself to doubt? She built whole her world around that and now she is 70. I do not claim that this is not possible but it would be extremely dangerous for her to stop to believe. I feel that she would die - she would not be anyway same person. She would have to choose it herself if she would like to acknowledge the facts and rational part of herself.
If something was/is not in line with her view she is just ignoring it or recalling what Saint or Church said about it. So the fact is not existing, or is interpreted in way that supports her view. If I told her about Julius Caesar she would not listen to what I am saying but she would say that it is so sad that I cannot believe and insulting god by my thinking, but she would pray for me and hope that I will come back to church someday.

I think it happens with a lot of people. I have also this traits. I already disgust myself for that.

When someone chooses religious path I think there is not much I can do. Maybe when I was a priest or Pope then sure :) - because from position of authority it is entry point but also not for everyone.

Religion is maybe more extreme than belief about America. Still this is kind of religious attitude.

For other who seek truth important is to make this truth available. I also do not know if I am able to do it. I was putting SOTT posters here and there and sharing some SOTT news, sharing some books, but I am not sure how it works. I am not sure if people have courage and time to look at this.
There is one Polish book "Święci w dziejach narodu polskiego" which means "Saints in history of Poland" - well, I never read it but I like the title. Example of what we do is contagious if it works.
ark said:
"How was it for You Ark to meet real America? "

Strange.

"What was Your greatest discovery about real Americans, real America?"

Mind control.

"What kind of lies You discovered You believed about that country and people?"

I do not want believe in anything. I want to know!

Well, I know I am not completely serious here, but your question are not specific enough for me to be completely serious (though I am never completely serious, even when I try to answer my own questions).

But I have learned a lot in America. Enough to be happy to be now somewhere else, to learn other things. All is lessons.

If you have some more specific questions - do not hesitate, ask.
Click to expand...

Yes, Your humour is specific :). Thanks for treating seriously my questions :D.
I am again projecting my own prejudices and expecting to here answer which I believe You shall give...
My prejudices of Americans:
1. A lot of Americans are dumb - not knowing history, not carrying about history, about education,
2. Carrying mostly about money and having good life - businessman attitude
3. Being open and extrovert - having only superficial friendships
4. American smile - everything is OK even when it is bad

So this is my load my lies even not having friend in any American. But it is what I have - even if I know that it is not true intellectually.
Did You have the same (and will You anser only "No" ? :))
 
Mikel said:
I am again projecting my own prejudices and expecting to here answer which I believe You shall give...
My prejudices of Americans:
1. A lot of Americans are dumb - not knowing history, not carrying about history, about education,
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Mostly true. Or true for MOST Americans. But that is because of the programming from above, the propaganda, the brainwashing, etc, all instituted by the oligarchical control system that wants no resistance or competition.

Mikel said:
2. Carrying mostly about money and having good life - businessman attitude
Click to expand...

True about less than half of American. True about the wealthy elite, for sure, but most Americans just want a decent job that pays the bills and a few perks of the "good American life" that has been sold to them via propaganda. Fewer and fewer are able to achieve this nowadays - the middle class is disappearing into abject poverty and homelessness because of the money-grabbing tendencies of the wealthy elite.

Mikel said:
3. Being open and extrovert - having only superficial friendships
Click to expand...

This is a bit twisted. Probably the best things about Americans until 9-11 were their openness and friendliness and helpfulness. And it wasn't/isn't about "superficial friendships". It's that Americans were conditioned to believe that everyone has equal opportunity and therefore, there is no need to feel resentment or jealousy toward others, to be suspicious or closed, they simply were welcoming and truly friendly. This is what I miss most about America. In France, people are raised to believe that every other person is "out the get them" in some way, compete for their jobs, women, men, schools, grades, whatever. Everybody is your "competition and is planning to do you dirty". So the French are NOT friendly, as a rule, and they are always over-thinking or second-guessing any word or gesture of kindness or friendliness. This attitude actually permeates France to a very deep level.

So, in general, Americans are friendly with everyone, helpful even toward strangers, not normally suspicious of motives, etc. They assume that any person MIGHT become a good friend though their friendliness toward strangers is NOT thought of as a good friendship. It's just good manners in the US. The French assume that any person, no matter how nice, is probably trying to screw them over.

Mikel said:
4. American smile - everything is OK even when it is bad
Click to expand...

See above. That's the downside of being conditioned to think that everyone has an equal opportunity in life. They may cling to this belief desperately, in the face of all evidence to the contrary, just like your mother clings to religion. Since they are brainwashed to think they live in a democracy, Americans are convinced that their leaders are "good" and acting in their best interests. Even if they will say "Oh, he can't be trusted, he's a politician," that's just a throwaway remark that doesn't really sink in. The cold, hard, facts that Americans live under an oligarchy that does NOT have their best interests at heart is almost insupportable to them. You could say that being American is a sort of religion and Americans, first of all, bought the propaganda.

I should mention that being French is the religion of France, as well, though it is more Catholic and ritualized, while in the US the religion takes on more of the tones of protestantism.
 
I am sad again. I have programs that condition my behaviour and thinking towards other people which I do not believe are mine but they are here and they are working.

Sad to think about open people that there is something behind their actions. Sad to reject friendship.

Robert, I will read Your book. I will be skeptical as much as I can be. I will try to not judge people by my programs about them.
I am not sure if I am able to stick to my words but will try.

Currently I am living in Germany and I tell You there are special prejudices about Germans and Russians in my head although I first get to know real Germans in 2008 and first Russians somewhat the same time.

World War II is still alive in imagination. My mother was born at the end of the war. Memory incepted in her was fresh and strong. My father was born in 41. His family was coming from former Belarus. My grandmother was almost executed when she was carrying my father. At the end of the war they were "proposed" to leave. My grandfather was planning to go to USA but somehow changed his mind.

In my mothers side most part of my grandmothers sisters were forced to work for Germans. My grandfather was forced to work in factory which produced part for bombers. My greatgrandfather was killed. My uncle was a soldier but after the army was dissolved he was hiding whole war. My family was relatively lucky during the war. Anyway, my grandmother, my grandmother's sisters, when we were kids they were "teaching" us, telling us stories from that time. Not much but it was enough to make generalization about nations. For them Germans and Russians were evil.

From my wife side, her grandmother was working also for Germans. Her brother was killed in the beginning of the war. Her father side story is unknown and I just realized that it would be interesting to know also.

So prejudices about Germans:
1. More German than Human
2. Tend to be Nazi even if nothing is supporting it (thinking like: they are all Nazis in secrecy of their homes)
3. Too proud, too loud
4. Believing in order (rational in cost of emotions)

And Russians:
1. Strong and healthy
2. Cannot trust (because point 3)
3. Following authority without asking why
4. Drinks a lot of vodka

Now having my own experience first hand and reading some books - again thanks to this Forum - Sebastian Haffner "Defying Hitler" and other author "White Rose" (this one I am not sure if was mentioned) it gave me good feeling that definitely I cannot generalize. Reality about Germans and Germany is closer to "our" reality. We are not that different. We are differently programmed that is for sure.

Same with Russians. I have few friends from Russia and again. Knowing them, knowing what they are up to, what do they struggle for in life is all the same: good education, good job, good future, have kids, have house, live decently, have friends. All what we long for. Different programs again however Poles are much closer in brainwashing with Russians than with Germans in my opinion. We understand our humour better at least.

Maybe I shall put that "convictions" those programs in The Swamp instead? Reality is good.
By the way Possibility of Being I did not know that Voice of America was another important broadcast in Poland. That is also sad that history after 45 is not taught in schools.
I wish I could visit Armenia next time! We have been 2 years ago in Georgia and we enjoyed the stay and history lessons there.

Sorry for my prejudices. I wish I may have German friends. Here I have a lot of acquaintances. In my work I am meeting quite a lot of people but I am not close with anyone here.
 
It occurs to me, Mikel, that much of the views you present about Russians, Germans, and Americans might have been influenced by war and militarism. I think all three societies have been framed in what Lobaczewki termed "a wave of hysteria" that transpired during the last century. I would also add Great Britain, France, and other nations to the mix. I wonder if suspicions about Americans being friendly and extraverted might also come from the knowledge non-Americans have that many Americans think they are superior because they have bigger bombs.

Laura certainly brings up a valid point about Americas being open and friendly. It brings to mind the fact that you can put Americans together, even when they don't know each other, and they will work together almost instinctively. I have been in countries where that does not happen. I have noticed that Americans share information about how to do things better, even with people they don't know or even with those who could be viewed as competitors. I have worked with, for example, Saudis who would find something new and of value and keep this information to themselves.

I recently spent some time digging into the Peoples' Temple, Jim Jones affair, and there were some things about Americans that we are talking about here which made them ideal in this whole affair. It was a CIA mind control and medical experiment that had several objectives. One of these was to block Venezuela's access to enormous resources in the region. So, the CIA put roughly a thousand Americans there, in Guiana, knowing that Venezuela would not attack them.

But sticking a thousand people in the middle of a jungle and having them survive and support themselves is no easy task. These Americans figured out know to grow food in ways that no one had ever done. They also came up with ways to generate electricity, and enough of it to supply the entire colony. They cut barrels and fashioned them in such a way as to use wind as a source for the energy and used old car alternators to generate the electricity. The whole story is amazing, but it brought to mind the fact that the CIA knew that North Americans would be able to do these things and survive under conditions whereas no one else in the region had ever done.

The CIA, a psychopathic organization, knows how to use smart people for their objectives. The big problem is that they run the country and only put their energy and our energy toward destruction. This illustrates our problem as a nation. We put the vast majority of our ingenuity and creativity toward destruction in the form of racism, genocide, and militarism. That is what my book is about -- how this all happened, from the first year, 1607, that the first colony, Jamestown, up to the JFK assassination came to be on this destructive path. From the very beginning American has been on a critical path dictated by these "seeds of destruction" and has never been able to change course. This is the reason JFK had to go. It is almost like Jonestown was a microcosm of the American experience that began at Jamestown.
 
Robert Kirkconnell said:
Somewhere I ran across the analogy, "Propaganda is to democracies as the bludgeon is to dictatorships..." If you want to control people in a democracy, you have to trick them, hence we have the most sophisticated propaganda in Great Britain and the U.S. It is intriguing and I went into it and where it came from in my book. Another surprise for me was the control over publishing in the U.S. and actually world wide by the CIA. All they have to do is find out who actually makes the decision on what gets published and get next to that person. Bribery or blackmail, sometimes both, usually does the trick. They don't have to burn the book that does not get published. This is why the power control group is so ticked off about self-publishing.
Click to expand...

There's a great book by Terry Hansen (a journalist) called "The Missing Times: News Media Complicity in the UFO Cover-Up". While it is mainly framed in terms of the history of UFOs in relation to government and the media, it has a few chapters on the history of censorship and propaganda (mostly British and American). It's a really good introduction to these topics, focusing on policies and practices leading up to (and after) the world wars. If anyone still thinks US society has been "open" during this time, this book will disabuse them of that notion. Quite the eye-opener.
 
Robert Kirkconnell said:
I do have to say that this is still a country where you can do that, and that is not the case in a lot of countries.
Click to expand...

Although, in a lot of those countries where it cannot be done, the reason can be directly or indirectly attributed to American influence/interference.

The main reason countries like the US, UK, France etc. were/are able to be 'developed' to the extent that they were/are was/is because people in other countries were forcibly kept 'underdeveloped' by the US, UK, France etc.
 
Certainly this is the case Perceval, but I have found that desperate people are not too concerned about the fact that what is called "opportunity" in the U.S. is as a result of looting other countries, including there own; at least not at the time they are seeking refuge. Yes, the U.S. poisoned crops in many South American countries with herbicides (ostensibly to eliminate drug crops) putting farmers out of business, and those farmers flocked to the cities where there were no jobs. This not working, many of them come to the U.S. for a better deal. Even the ones that know, and most don't, how this all happened just don't want they and their families to starve. I guess the old navy saying, "Any port in a storm" applies.

I think that many later resent this and that is where we have refugees and first born of refugees that deeply resent the U.S. even though they were "saved." They were saved by the same country the impoverished them in the first place.
 
Robert Kirkconnell said:
Joe and Niall are so sneaky!! They went and published a book right under our noses. I just bought Manufactured Terror and I can't wait to read it!!
Click to expand...

Thanks for the recommendation Robert. The book is a collective of articles on "terror attacks" in the USA and France with updates and new information.
 
Perceval said:
Robert Kirkconnell said:
Joe and Niall are so sneaky!! They went and published a book right under our noses. I just bought Manufactured Terror and I can't wait to read it!!
Click to expand...

Thanks for the recommendation Robert. The book is a collective of articles on "terror attacks" in the USA and France with updates and new information.
Click to expand...
Thank you very much people! I will read the book.
 
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