Show #47 - American Heart of Darkness: Robert Kirkconnell Interview
- Thread starter Niall
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Mikel said:
Hi Mikel, you can ask whichever questions you wish here.
As regards Robert, I think if you listened to all of the other shows, you would realise that we treat all of our guests in more or less the same way; we are respectful and interested in what they have to say. We are respectful because it is good manners to be so, and we are interested in what they have to say because, invariably, we have researched their work and found it interesting and inline with our own research and the research of this forum.
Depending on the guest, there may be a better rapport with some than others, and I think we had a good rapport with Robert. He's a nice guy and has done some good research. There was no "excitement" as you seem to be describing it, just enthusiasm to get the message out.
As for a "halo effect", we've long since gotten over any cognitive bias where our judgments of a person’s character may be influenced by our subjective impression of him or her. To be honest, we tend to be pretty skeptical of everyone, although in a healthy, objective way, as in "by their fruits you shall know them".
I think the lonely question isn't really relevant because you seem to be suggesting that such loneliness, if present, might lead us to project qualities onto a radio show guest that we had never met before in the hope of striking up a friendship of some sorts. I can't imagine that ever happening even if we were lonely because that's a bit delusional and not a very healthy way to deal with loneliness.
Robert Kirkconnell
Jedi
Just so we all understand each other Mikel I am not a "cool guy." I am a combat veteran recovering from post traumatic stress disorder, alcoholism, agent orange, and probably other stuff I am not aware of. I tend to be outgoing and gregarious, but there is a rage that burns in me. There are two of us left alive from my old outfit in Vietnam and the other guy is much worse off than I am. Most of the guys I grew up with, that went to Vietnam, are dead. The ones still alive are messed up. Bob C. types on the internet with his thumbs because he doesn't have any fingers left -- agent orange, and Johnny D. is crippled from having been shot in the hip... Most of the guys gone did not get killed in combat. They committed suicide, drank themselves to death, etc.
None of this is funny to me, and add to it that the same S.O.B.s that did this to my generation also are doing it to our kids and grandkids. Who did this, how, and why, are in my book and also Laura's. We are trying to understand all of this so that maybe sometime everyone will understand and put a stop to this madness. This is what we write about and this is what the show was about. All of us understand this.
Mikel, I would like you to read our books so you can understand where we are coming from and share in these discussions.
None of this is funny to me, and add to it that the same S.O.B.s that did this to my generation also are doing it to our kids and grandkids. Who did this, how, and why, are in my book and also Laura's. We are trying to understand all of this so that maybe sometime everyone will understand and put a stop to this madness. This is what we write about and this is what the show was about. All of us understand this.
Mikel, I would like you to read our books so you can understand where we are coming from and share in these discussions.
Thank You Robert, Perceval and Laura for being patient and responding gently to my inquiry.
I appreciate that. I am grateful to be here in environment where I may express my doubts even if they are not pleasant and receive understanding and reply which I was asking.
Have a good day guys.
I appreciate that. I am grateful to be here in environment where I may express my doubts even if they are not pleasant and receive understanding and reply which I was asking.
Have a good day guys.
Just finished listening to this show a little while ago. Thanks for another good one.
Mikel, I note from your age and location that you may have certain knowledge of Eastern European things of more recent date, but you can't know about the horrors and scars that many Americans suffered as a consequence of the US Imperialistic/Anti-Communist BS that led to Viet Nam. I don't know what the numbers are in respect of how many young Americans of my generation got shipped off over there and came back ruined for life, but I know that probably every high-school graduating class in the US for ten years or so lost members that way.
I dated a guy for several years a long time ago who was so damaged by his experiences that for the rest of his life, he was haunted and unable to find peace. He had recordings of battles and firefights and ammo dump explosions that he would listen to over and over and over again because so many of his friends died and he could not deal with the fact that he survived. He died in Spring 2010, rather too young IMO, after a lifetime of torment. I knew him. And nearly everyone from my generation knew someone like him or were, themselves, in the same situation.
Just so you know, your supposedly "innocent" questions are similar to an American asking a Polish person "Gee, what is up with you Poles finding that you are on the same page about the old Communist regime and how some of your family and friends disappeared into some political prison? Are you desperate for friends because you are friendly with someone who has the same view of those times?" That would be rather offensive, now wouldn't it?
I dated a guy for several years a long time ago who was so damaged by his experiences that for the rest of his life, he was haunted and unable to find peace. He had recordings of battles and firefights and ammo dump explosions that he would listen to over and over and over again because so many of his friends died and he could not deal with the fact that he survived. He died in Spring 2010, rather too young IMO, after a lifetime of torment. I knew him. And nearly everyone from my generation knew someone like him or were, themselves, in the same situation.
Just so you know, your supposedly "innocent" questions are similar to an American asking a Polish person "Gee, what is up with you Poles finding that you are on the same page about the old Communist regime and how some of your family and friends disappeared into some political prison? Are you desperate for friends because you are friendly with someone who has the same view of those times?" That would be rather offensive, now wouldn't it?
Mr. Premise
The Living Force
What Laura said, Mikal. Plus, what you wrote showed a lack of understanding of Laura, Joe and Niall's living situation. They live surrounded by like minded people. It's probably the least lonely situation on the planet. Plus they have more people wanting to be their friends than any person can possibly handle. So you were projecting from your situation and that would make your "feeling" not really apply here.
Robert Kirkconnell
Jedi
Reading Laura's comments reminded me of something. As bad as Vietnam was for Americans it was much worse for South East Asians -- millions killed and having to live in agent orange their whole lives. What a horror. Add to this what WW I and II did to Europe -- tens of millions killed, and we have recent history that is beyond unacceptable.
How this happened is what we are trying to shine a flashlight on. We want the whole world to know, and especially Mikal's age and younger. They are the ones that are going to have to deal with a world in environmental collapse with diminishing resources. If we wait until this runs over us there will be a lot of blood on the floor. If it is managed there will not be. This is what we are talking about, Mikal, and what our challenge is.
How this happened is what we are trying to shine a flashlight on. We want the whole world to know, and especially Mikal's age and younger. They are the ones that are going to have to deal with a world in environmental collapse with diminishing resources. If we wait until this runs over us there will be a lot of blood on the floor. If it is managed there will not be. This is what we are talking about, Mikal, and what our challenge is.
Sometimes like now I feel that the wisest thing I can do for a time being is to stay shut up.
I feel stupid not being able to just put myself into others shoes. Thanks for analogy Laura.
I will try to keep that in mind next time.
I would not thought that there are people in America who may / could think of their government like Poles about theirs in communistic times.
You see, in Poland, America was perceived as "Land of the Free". Really. People in America were reach and free to us. We were living in prison while others in West were truly free. Mythology. In Poland really powerful mythology. America was free, democratic, abundant, colorful, attractive. And I think that this image was mostly created in minds of people who were not there.
I am from younger generation, born in 1979. I remember time before transition and memory among our friends, family and others was still fresh what it meant to live in pathological system. Some of my family members were serving government: my uncle was "secret informer", other uncle belonged to the ruling party and was quite wealthy for that times, my grandfather was a policeman and my father was unfortunately serving for a short time but in quite crucial moment of martial law in 1981 as police force (muscle man for beating others). About my father I do not know too much. Never told us. But what my mom was saying is that after that period he become unbalanced. He had nightmares. From my wife side her father was also policeman during communistic times and his father had also unfortunate past in Polish security service which also his family is not knowing details about or maybe do not want to come back to it as it was also a period in history of Poland when a lot of people were secretly killed in prisons by that "service" (end of 40's and 50's).
No, I did not know. My knowledge of US history is limited. I will educated myself more about it. Yes this question could be taken as offensive. Sorry for that once again and thank You that You are clarifying things for dummies. I am limited. You are showing respect for my imperfection. I would probably be irritated by that. Thank You for Your attitude towards myself. You put my heart.
I feel stupid not being able to just put myself into others shoes. Thanks for analogy Laura.
I will try to keep that in mind next time.
I would not thought that there are people in America who may / could think of their government like Poles about theirs in communistic times.
You see, in Poland, America was perceived as "Land of the Free". Really. People in America were reach and free to us. We were living in prison while others in West were truly free. Mythology. In Poland really powerful mythology. America was free, democratic, abundant, colorful, attractive. And I think that this image was mostly created in minds of people who were not there.
I am from younger generation, born in 1979. I remember time before transition and memory among our friends, family and others was still fresh what it meant to live in pathological system. Some of my family members were serving government: my uncle was "secret informer", other uncle belonged to the ruling party and was quite wealthy for that times, my grandfather was a policeman and my father was unfortunately serving for a short time but in quite crucial moment of martial law in 1981 as police force (muscle man for beating others). About my father I do not know too much. Never told us. But what my mom was saying is that after that period he become unbalanced. He had nightmares. From my wife side her father was also policeman during communistic times and his father had also unfortunate past in Polish security service which also his family is not knowing details about or maybe do not want to come back to it as it was also a period in history of Poland when a lot of people were secretly killed in prisons by that "service" (end of 40's and 50's).
Laura said:
No, I did not know. My knowledge of US history is limited. I will educated myself more about it. Yes this question could be taken as offensive. Sorry for that once again and thank You that You are clarifying things for dummies. I am limited. You are showing respect for my imperfection. I would probably be irritated by that. Thank You for Your attitude towards myself. You put my heart.
Robert Kirkconnell
Jedi
Hi Mikel, whatever you do keep talking. Your last comments were very enlightening. My South American relatives look at America the same way. Most of them live in countries that have been destroyed by US imperialism and they want to come here to be "free." More later, I have to go now, but keep talking! What you are saying is not "stupid" at all.
Robert Kirkconnell said:
I agree, Mikal.
As you know, my husband is Polish, born in former Polish city, now Ukrainian, Lutsk, in 1943, when everything around was desolation and destruction and bombs were falling. When she heard the bombers coming, his mother would run into the fields to hide with him. They were lucky to have any food to eat at all. His family was "invited" to leave when the region was given to Russia; their other option was Siberia. We have many discussions comparing things in Poland and the US through the years. So I know what went on in Poland pretty well.
Ark, too, was believing the lies about America and it took him a few years to see how covert the control system actually is. Well, it is coming out into the open now, but it was always there to one extent or another. In Poland, there were secret police and you had to hide if you wanted to listen to Western radio stations. Every time he went abroad as a scientist, he was interrogated on his return. BUT, as he points out, he received a world class education for free. In the US, you had "apparent freedom", but there is deliberate dumbing down of the entire population.
That's just a little of it, but perhaps you might ask Ark what he noticed most about the U.S.
Palinurus
The Living Force
I seem to recall --probably from one of the interviews-- that even Andrej Lobaczewski of Political Ponerology fame, a person from whom one would least expect this, was initially sort of prone to a form of let's say naiveté vis à vis the real state of affairs within the USA and about its control system.
Hope my memory isn't deceiving me...
Mikel said:
Bear in mind that that myth was created thanks to (or directly by) such US Cold War propaganda and/or CIA outlets as VOA and Radio Free Europe. We bought it because we didn't like what was going on in our country. We didn't know better. We as a nation were cut off from the Western world and any source of information other than Soviet propaganda, so VOA and RFE seemed like a fresh breeze of freedom. Their broadcasts were being constantly jammed which made the 'forbidden fruit' even more powerful in its influence.
What doesn't
Palinurus, you are correct. No one is perfect and completely free of blind spots.
--
Edit: Confused those words again, sorry. One day I will have it mastered.
From original suspicions and projection of my internal fiction I came into unexpected point.
... Just coming back to previous posts... it is so ...
to let myself think that USA is similar to my country. I mean intellectually it is not that hard to say to myself: people are everywhere the same or some similar cliche but to put myself like I was there and ...
I just thought yesterday that my image of that time (Vietnam war) comes from TV: Platoon, Time of Apocalypse, Born 4th of July and it is sad or even scary that for me it is so easy to think that I know something, while what I know is in a fact few Hollywood movies.
I am not often sad about my ignorance but now I just feel like this inability to connect to other people, to love others is so sad. Because this ignorance, this confidence in my knowledge, in myself is so ... sad.
Sometimes I feel like the guy in movie "Memento". If I just remembered the state which I am now in...
Inspired to ask more questions:
How was it for You Ark to meet real America?
What was Your greatest discovery about real Americans, real America?
What kind of lies You discovered You believed about that country and people?
... Just coming back to previous posts... it is so ...
to let myself think that USA is similar to my country. I mean intellectually it is not that hard to say to myself: people are everywhere the same or some similar cliche but to put myself like I was there and ...I just thought yesterday that my image of that time (Vietnam war) comes from TV: Platoon, Time of Apocalypse, Born 4th of July and it is sad or even scary that for me it is so easy to think that I know something, while what I know is in a fact few Hollywood movies.
I am not often sad about my ignorance but now I just feel like this inability to connect to other people, to love others is so sad. Because this ignorance, this confidence in my knowledge, in myself is so ... sad.
Sometimes I feel like the guy in movie "Memento". If I just remembered the state which I am now in...
Inspired to ask more questions:
How was it for You Ark to meet real America?
What was Your greatest discovery about real Americans, real America?
What kind of lies You discovered You believed about that country and people?