I'd like to thank you all for your open mind, your research and your material about smoking.
In fact, it has been a long time since I wanted to read seriously about that subject. I still remember the day I read the session where C's said smoking was not that bad. I felt so confused...
I read them fo so many years and I each time, the informations felt so true to my ears, so interesting and then... what the hell ?! Smoking is good ? We're programed to think it's bad for health ? How could it be ?
But when you use to look for the truth behind the veil, when you like the philosophy around here and try your best to learn about yourself and life in a general way day after day, you cannot ignore such information and just listen to your ego because it doens't suit you....
Believe me, a part of me hates to read that smoking can be good. But I can't avoid this information. I put aside for a while but now I will start some reaserch.
Actually, here are the things that disturbed me at first :
- 1 of my grand father died by a lung cancer,
- 1 of my uncle died by a throat cancer
- They both smoked cigarets so it didn't suprise anybody
- It looks logical to hurt these parts of your body when you smoke the products it appears to be in cigarets.
- Both my parents were heavy smokers but my mother quit a long time ago. Since I was a child I always hated the smell of the smoke and the fact it avoided me to breath normally especially in a car or a room where you cannot escape.
In fact, When I was young, there was not any special anti-smoking campaign and you could see some ads on TV, theaters, sports events etc... It was pretty cool to smoke as Luky Lucke (French/belgian comics) or James Dean (Actor). But I hated that especially for the smoke and the smell. Of course, many deceases began to point cigarets more and more (I'm talking about the 80's).
I love sports and I am also used to meet some smokers aweakened at a breathing level. But some of them could surprised me by their cardiac skills.
Anyway, I stay focus on my goal wich is evolving by experimentation, work and knowledge so I've got to learm more about it.
Until now and besides the sessions I took a look to some pages of this thread and there is a lot to digest. But before going further, I think as Data when he says that :
Moreover, I also think that for some of us, smoking can be good or bad according to your personal datas, genetics... as Keyhole said :
Finally, I might add that sometimes, it seems to me that some people who argue around here and there simply defend their deep belief as always.
For some smokers, it can feel good to see that smoking brings some benefits whereas some others could think it's completely impossible seeing what they think to know about it. Smoking is a big subject in our modern society and a lot has been written about it for decades. It's hard to see clearly...
Thanks again to all of you.
In fact, it has been a long time since I wanted to read seriously about that subject. I still remember the day I read the session where C's said smoking was not that bad. I felt so confused...
I read them fo so many years and I each time, the informations felt so true to my ears, so interesting and then... what the hell ?! Smoking is good ? We're programed to think it's bad for health ? How could it be ?
But when you use to look for the truth behind the veil, when you like the philosophy around here and try your best to learn about yourself and life in a general way day after day, you cannot ignore such information and just listen to your ego because it doens't suit you....
Believe me, a part of me hates to read that smoking can be good. But I can't avoid this information. I put aside for a while but now I will start some reaserch.
Actually, here are the things that disturbed me at first :
- 1 of my grand father died by a lung cancer,
- 1 of my uncle died by a throat cancer
- They both smoked cigarets so it didn't suprise anybody
- It looks logical to hurt these parts of your body when you smoke the products it appears to be in cigarets.
- Both my parents were heavy smokers but my mother quit a long time ago. Since I was a child I always hated the smell of the smoke and the fact it avoided me to breath normally especially in a car or a room where you cannot escape.
In fact, When I was young, there was not any special anti-smoking campaign and you could see some ads on TV, theaters, sports events etc... It was pretty cool to smoke as Luky Lucke (French/belgian comics) or James Dean (Actor). But I hated that especially for the smoke and the smell. Of course, many deceases began to point cigarets more and more (I'm talking about the 80's).
I love sports and I am also used to meet some smokers aweakened at a breathing level. But some of them could surprised me by their cardiac skills.
Anyway, I stay focus on my goal wich is evolving by experimentation, work and knowledge so I've got to learm more about it.
Until now and besides the sessions I took a look to some pages of this thread and there is a lot to digest. But before going further, I think as Data when he says that :
Moreover, I also think that for some of us, smoking can be good or bad according to your personal datas, genetics... as Keyhole said :
Finally, I might add that sometimes, it seems to me that some people who argue around here and there simply defend their deep belief as always.
For some smokers, it can feel good to see that smoking brings some benefits whereas some others could think it's completely impossible seeing what they think to know about it. Smoking is a big subject in our modern society and a lot has been written about it for decades. It's hard to see clearly...
Thanks again to all of you.
I saw this picture linked here and thought of this thread. Ah gone are those days where you could just light up at a children's party without anyone batting an eyelid *sigh*. It was taken in 1974 Abertillery, Wales.
By casual observation, I have seen many, many times that a lung cancer appears soon after an individual stops smoking. I have never seen a study on the subject (never looked for one either). I suspect that the smoke inhibits growth of the tumor growth in some way.
Yupo said:
It could be interesting to compare the number of cases when lung cancer appears while the person still smokes and after she has quit. In my case, for my grand-father, I don't remember if he had quit before developping his cancer. I was too young. But I don't think so.
Anwyay, it must be difficult, even impossible to get such a ratio.
There are a heap of anecdotal reports of people who stop smoking and get really sick with a whole bunch of different diseases. Apparently it is quite common. I will see if I can find some of them but I am pretty sure Keyhole has data on this as well.Yupo said:
1984 said:
I also heard about that kind of story. all my family have been trying to make my father stop smoking for years. He reduced a lot but cannot stop. Some years ago I stopped insisting because i feared that he could developp something bad. It's funny coz I thought and I still think in some way that smoking is bad for health but deep in me I think I could feel that it wasn't so bad for some of us who smokes in a balance way.
Now When I read all this material about smoking, I start thinking that smoking is not that bad or at least for some people.
Indeed, it seems that it would better to avoid cigaretts with filter and smoke tabacco with rolled paper. Once again, i still think that everything is in balancing our habits.
Elohir said:
Have you considered that the reason he hasn't stopped is because he likes and gets some benefit from it? In my experience, when a person decides that they want to stop smoking, as distinct from somebody else wanting them to stop, they just stop. When they are being hassled and harangued and bullied, they may make a half hearted attempt, but they don't stop because they don't want to.
Flashgordonv said:
Hi and thanks for your answer but you didn't get what I wanted to say, I'm sorry for my poor english level, it looks to me that I was not clear enough.
Let me explain it a bit better.
So yes, I have considered this fact or at least now I understand maybe better why I felt I should let him smoke.
Anyway, I Haven't read all the thread and as I said, I'm gonna make some reaserch about it but someone can give me some informations about the drug part ? I mean, about what we use to say about the difficulty to stop smoking because of the effect of some products. It seems that smoking can be good for some of us but not nessessairly for all the people. Nevertheless, most of the smokers seem to have some diffciulties for stopping it.
If all is true about the urge to go on smoking even if it's bad for you, it would be difficult to determine who should go on and who should stop.
There is a relatively new field/career specialty called Health Informatics. With widespread use of compliant EHR programs, there is a lot of this information available now, at least in theory. To make a 'compliant' electronic note, certain fields of input are required. A compliant note is pretty much required to get top level reimbursement, so most physicians are complying with the data collection program. For example, in my specialty, BMI, tobacco use, vaccine stuff and depression related stats are required, maybe some other stuff too (I'm not participating, so not sure). Pediatricians have stuff like 'guns in the house' and 'smoking in the house' to ask about, for example. I digress.
My point is that the information is out there. I will be surprised if the published reports ever have anything to say about benefits of smoking. You know, stats showing benefits will most likely be somehow tied to benefits of marriage, lifestyle, outlook or such as that. One can come up with anything to say anything, so long as PC.
When I lived in Chicago in mid 1980s, I got included in a NIH sponsored study at Northwestern called CARDIA, meant to follow heart health of young adults as they age. Every 3 years or so the subjects are examined and interviewed; an all day process. Each physical is a little different, depending on what they are looking for. Papers are generated from the data collected. Remember the yogurt commercial that had something about 'women that eat yogurt at least X# times/week have smaller waistlines'? That factoid came from CARDIA data. I don't know how to access the information, but I'd look there if I knew how.
The most recent study dealt with gut/microbiome issues for the 1st time. Samples collected for research.
"CARDIA is a unique epidemiological study that is well suited for answering questions of how heart disease develops in young adults. Three features are important to note. First, these are young adults at the start of the study (18-30 years old) who are community dwelling and presumed free of disease. This cohort is about to enter its year 25 exam and participants have had regular study visits over this relatively long interval. Second, the cohort is ½ black, ½ white, ½ men, ½ women, ½ low SES, ½ high SES – because of these design features, the cohort is unique in its ability to address questions at the intersection of race/sex/SES in young adults. Third, study visits have include multiple in-depth questionnaires related to behavior, psychosocial issues, physiological measurements, and adjudicated cardiovascular outcomes. The number of clinical events thus far in CARDIA is relatively small, because the cohort is young. If you are looking for a large number of individuals with a particularly clinical condition, CARDIA is probably not the right dataset for you. On the other hand, if you are interested in issues of prevention and the period before the development of clinical disease, CARDIA is ideal.
Blood pressure
Chemistries
Anthropometry
Medical history (including sociodemographics and health behaviors)
Family history
Physical activity/fitness
Nutrient intake / dietary history
Obesity questionnaires
Psychosocial parameters (including a wide variety of data including social support, job strain, discrimination, caregiving stress, neighborhood cohesion, and many others)
Pulmonary function
Electrocardiogram and echocardiography
Coronary calcium
Carotid intimal medial thickness
Genetic studies
Special supplements and resources
CARDIA contains a number of substudies and ancillary studies which have collected data on a variety of biochemical and radiographic markers.
Click here for a PubMed search for articles using this dataset.
SevenFeathers
Dagobah Resident
My mother died at age 56 from lung cancer. She had been a heavy smoker of non filtered Camel cigarettes for her whole adult life, so when she got cancer, we thought, well, of course (due to all the info put out about smoking). She had tried to quit a few times, but always went back. Even in the hospital room as she was near her end, she wanted her cigarettes.
Then my dad died about 10 years later from lymphoma. He had also smoked all his life, also with a few attempts to stop, once after a major heart attack. He did switch over to filtered cigarettes eventually.
I always hated the smell in our house, and the ashtrays full of butts. And when I got my own car, I either wouldn't "let" my mom smoke in it or made her put the window down. As for me, I never even tried to smoke. But it's kind of weird. I've had two dreams lately in which I am smoking. One dream, I was participating in a study for non smokers to try smoking and the other dream, I just decided to try it. In both dreams, I smoked with no coughing or choking!
We also had a friend die from lung cancer a few years ago and he had NEVER smoked and was a runner. His diet was so-so I think.
It was easy to blame my parents' deaths on smoking, but now reading all the information here has made me rethink the situation. We were poor. We ate a lot beans and potatoes, with some meat. We lived out in the country and my mom did raise vegetables in a garden, but they were cooked to death (southern style!). There didn't seem to be a lot of toxins in our environment except for crop dusters spraying poison which I am sure floated over to us. I remember my mom being depressed a lot. Looking at the spiritual aspects of lung disease, depression is one of the connections. I remember her saying more than once (when something disappointed her), "I wish I was dead". So she found a way maybe? As for Hodgkins lymphoma, there's listed a connection to "not being good enough", and that fits my dad. He only had a grade school education which ended afer 4th grade because he had to quit and help his family. He was forever lamenting his lack of education and how great he could have been...
So, was smoking bad for my parents? I don't know. Maybe it helped them cope with their feelings of depression and inadequacy. They got sick, yes. Dis-ease found a weak link in each of them and was able to flourish due to multiple factors, not just smoking.
Then my dad died about 10 years later from lymphoma. He had also smoked all his life, also with a few attempts to stop, once after a major heart attack. He did switch over to filtered cigarettes eventually.
I always hated the smell in our house, and the ashtrays full of butts. And when I got my own car, I either wouldn't "let" my mom smoke in it or made her put the window down. As for me, I never even tried to smoke. But it's kind of weird. I've had two dreams lately in which I am smoking. One dream, I was participating in a study for non smokers to try smoking and the other dream, I just decided to try it. In both dreams, I smoked with no coughing or choking!
We also had a friend die from lung cancer a few years ago and he had NEVER smoked and was a runner. His diet was so-so I think.
It was easy to blame my parents' deaths on smoking, but now reading all the information here has made me rethink the situation. We were poor. We ate a lot beans and potatoes, with some meat. We lived out in the country and my mom did raise vegetables in a garden, but they were cooked to death (southern style!). There didn't seem to be a lot of toxins in our environment except for crop dusters spraying poison which I am sure floated over to us. I remember my mom being depressed a lot. Looking at the spiritual aspects of lung disease, depression is one of the connections. I remember her saying more than once (when something disappointed her), "I wish I was dead". So she found a way maybe? As for Hodgkins lymphoma, there's listed a connection to "not being good enough", and that fits my dad. He only had a grade school education which ended afer 4th grade because he had to quit and help his family. He was forever lamenting his lack of education and how great he could have been...
So, was smoking bad for my parents? I don't know. Maybe it helped them cope with their feelings of depression and inadequacy. They got sick, yes. Dis-ease found a weak link in each of them and was able to flourish due to multiple factors, not just smoking.
Both my parents smoked heavily from the time they were teenagers. My dad, born in 1924, developed asthma as a teenager. His doctor advised him to take up smoking, as it would help strengthen his lungs. I remember my dad telling me this and that was how he began to smoke. And, smoking did help him. Of course, back in the 1930's cigarettes probably didn't have all the additives and chemicals that are present today. My mother told me that she only remembers my dad having two really bad asthma attacks. One was on his wedding night ! ! ! And the other was when he was overseas at the end of WWII and was told he was heading home. Both times it was very scary for my dad, but he survived. I hardly ever remember my dad being sick. And it wasn't until he retired that he became chronically ill and developed emphysema.
My dad also worked in a Paper Mill for 25 plus years. The one thing I did notice, was that as each of my father's friends retired from working at the Mill, they developed emphysema and became chronically ill until they passed. Well, low and behold, when my dad retired from the Mill, three months later, he was diagnosed with emphysema and was never well again.
There were a few times I when I had to drive to the Mill and bring my dad his lunch that he had forgotten at home. Walking into the Mill, there were fibers of paper floating all through the air.....it looked like it was snowing indoors. None of the workers ever wore masks. Never did my dad complain about work or the conditions he worked in. I can only imagine that breathing that stuff was more harmful to him than any number of cigarettes he could have smoked in his lifetime. It wasn't until he became sick that he was scolded by his doctors for smoking and told that was the cause of his illness.
My parents had six children. None of us ever became smokers. It wasn't because we hated smoking - well, at least not for me. I never remember being offended by the smell of smoke when we were kids growing up. Things were very different. Back then, there were no seat belts in cars. Mothers held onto their infants while dad drove. Both parents lit up and puffed away with car windows closed.
I have, in the past, tried smoking, but it doesn't really seem to agree with me. And because the apartment complex I live it has banned smoking on the premises - which means we need to go stand on the sidewalk by the busy street - I just stopped altogether. But I did enjoy a few puffs a day. And I still enjoy the smell of a good cigar or cigarette!
My dad also worked in a Paper Mill for 25 plus years. The one thing I did notice, was that as each of my father's friends retired from working at the Mill, they developed emphysema and became chronically ill until they passed. Well, low and behold, when my dad retired from the Mill, three months later, he was diagnosed with emphysema and was never well again.
There were a few times I when I had to drive to the Mill and bring my dad his lunch that he had forgotten at home. Walking into the Mill, there were fibers of paper floating all through the air.....it looked like it was snowing indoors. None of the workers ever wore masks. Never did my dad complain about work or the conditions he worked in. I can only imagine that breathing that stuff was more harmful to him than any number of cigarettes he could have smoked in his lifetime. It wasn't until he became sick that he was scolded by his doctors for smoking and told that was the cause of his illness.
My parents had six children. None of us ever became smokers. It wasn't because we hated smoking - well, at least not for me. I never remember being offended by the smell of smoke when we were kids growing up. Things were very different. Back then, there were no seat belts in cars. Mothers held onto their infants while dad drove. Both parents lit up and puffed away with car windows closed.
I have, in the past, tried smoking, but it doesn't really seem to agree with me. And because the apartment complex I live it has banned smoking on the premises - which means we need to go stand on the sidewalk by the busy street - I just stopped altogether. But I did enjoy a few puffs a day. And I still enjoy the smell of a good cigar or cigarette!
Echo Blue said:
Interesting history about your dad, Echo Blue, and about the emphysema development upon leaving the pulp mill (for his friends too). These pulp mills contain a great deal of chemicals, gases and high heat as part of the pulping process, and not sure of his exact work (or that of his friends) that may have added a relationship to his emphysema. Guess what I'm saying is that it is possible that smoking did aggravate this condition, yet it may have been build up upon other factors too; as was said or things like working around diesel generators, equipment or what have you, it's just hard to know.
