Smoking is... good?

[Fluffy]

This is correct, you can buy legal devices and liquid, but only from chemists (mostly online) the range is getting bigger, as the TGA list of approved devices is quite large. (most young people tend to buy the illegal disposable vapes under the counter at smoke shops)

I would say that another advantage, for your son, if you can’t vape yourself, is that if you make your own e-juice, you can tailor the dosage and ween yourself down on nicotine strength, if he is looking to quit altogether at some point. Or you could go the other way, and have a high strength e-juice which you would only vape a few times a day instead of lower dose a lot.

As far as sensitivities go, it took me a few weeks before I could enjoy vapes, it does take a little while for your lungs to get used to it. My understanding is that tobacco smoke contains some chemical that restricts the lungs from coughing pretty quickly, it with the vapes there is no such, so it takes longer to adjust FWIW..

I guess there is always nicotine chewing gum, or as you say those pouches that Tucker seems to keen on and sells, not sure if you can get them here in Oz though … Hope you find a solution

He’s most certainly not trying to quit nicotine, he’s very onboard with it. He found some snuffs, he ordered a big batch so I hope customs doesn’t take them.

I must say I have zero interest in vaping myself, even if I did get used to it I just really like the ritual of rolling a smoke and the smelly stink of tobacco. It’s a true romance I have going on

 

[anartist]

​

The benefits of smoking, if any, may be due to lowering endotoxin/estrogen, raising dopamine​

I know the topic of smoking and drinking is controversial, and I hope that this post is not taken as an invitation to start puffing packs a day and downing pints of beer like water. Yet, there is something in the habits of extremely long-lived and healthy people that flies in the face of mainstream medicine and piques my curiosity. On one hand, there is strong evidence that chronic exposure to the aromatic hydrocarbons present in any smoke is carcinogenic, confirmed in many thousands of people who have worked in forest management (controlled fires), furnace/metallurgy workers, chimney sweepers, etc. On the other hand, the evidence for natural tobacco (no additives) smoking is a lot less convincing, even if we factor in the obvious ghostwriting and sponsored studies by the Big Tobacco companies questioning the dangers of smoking. There is also the curious fact that the World Health Organization (WHO) deliberately excludes countries with high tobacco consumption from its reports on cancers and longevity. For instance, not many people know that Caribbean countries, on average, have some of the highest tobacco (and alcohol) consumption per-capita in the world, yet have much lower rates of lung and other cancers, and also have some of the highest numbers of centenarians per-capita in the world. Other countries with a high number of centenarians also seem to have higher rates of smoking (and drinking). In addition, many of the world’s so-called super-centenarians were heavy smokers (and drinkers) throughout their lifetimes. Perhaps the most famous example is former UK Primer Minister Winston Churchill who was a heavy cigar smoker all his life, detested exercise, and was a heavy drinker as well, yet lived well into his nineties despite many of his relatives dying much younger (so genes were probably not a factor).

The secret of longevity may lie in long-lived smokers, a ‘biologically distinct’ group

Inside the live-longer isle: Why centenarians abound in Dominica

South African 'world's oldest man' wants to stop smoking

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/704080v3.full.pdf

“…The supposed enrichment for extreme-age survival in BZs is then subject to a host of secondary claims, each aimed at explaining the primary pattern of extraordinary longevity. Old-age survival in the BZs is supposed to result from diverse causes such as ‘moderate’ drinking at twice the NHS heavy-drinking guidelines[28], plant-based diets[25–27] and inbreeding[12,13].”

“…However, according to the national statistics bureau of Japan, only 3.9% of Japanese women and 19.3% of men over the age of 80 are smokers[56]. Tokyo centenarians therefore smoke at around twice the rate that could be expected in a younger, 80+year old cohort with an identical sex ratio. Likewise, 80% of the ‘exceptional’ health-status centenarian population were daily drinkers, followed by 49% of the ‘normal’ and less than 40% of the ‘frail or fragile’ centenarians, resulting in “a [significant] positive relationship between drinking habits and functional status”[55]. In contrast with these figures, Japanese government surveys estimate only 2.8% of women and 23% of men aged 80+ drink every day[56]. Daily drinking peaks at 36.7% in men aged 60-69, the heaviest-drinking cohort in Japan[56]. As such, Tokyo centenarians drink at higher rates than any other age group, and smoke at rates equal to a 45-year younger population[56].”

I think there is a play by Woody Allen about a man who falls in coma for decades only to wake up in a hospital at some point in the future and be presented with lit cigar/cigarette by a nurse and upon seeing his shocked face, the nurse exclaims something along the lines of “Please go ahead, it just tobacco. The healthiest remedy known to man.” On a more recent, and grim, note – we do have the extensive data from the COVID-19 pandemic demonstrating convincingly that smokers has a much lower chance of both falling ill with COVID-19, as well as deteriorating and dying from it.

The predisposition of smokers to COVID-19 infection: A mini-review of global perspectives - PMC

“…A case-control study from Mexico included 32,583 patients (12,304 COVID-19 positive cases and 20,279 COVID-19 negative controls) of which 2.3% of cases were smokers and 4.3% of controls had a history of smoking [65]. This study not only concluded that active smokers had a decreased likelihood of developing COVID-19 (females, adjusted OR = 0.49, 95% CI: 0.31–0.78; males, adjusted OR = 0.64, 95% CI 0.51–0.81) but also suggested that nicotine in tobacco might have a therapeutic effect.”

And finally, there is the curious example of a medical student from the UK, who had debilitating ulcerative colitis (UC) – a disease considered “incurable” by medicine – that went away for good when he started smoking a few cigarettes a day.

'Doctors don't always know best:' Student claims he cured debilitating bowel disease by taking up smoking

“…Stephen Pendry, 23, struggled with crippling pain, tiredness, shortness of breath and dehydration since he was diagnosed with ulcerative colitis four years ago. But he is now completely symptom-free, thanks to a new four-a-day cigarette habit. Doctors are divided over benefits of patients smoking to combat symptoms – some believe nicotine is the healer so patches, and not cigarettes, are way forward”.

So, how can the bioenergetic theory attempt to explain any potential benefits of smoking? Well, for a start, many of the main psychoactive tobacco ingredients (e.g. nicotine, cotinine, anabasine) are aromatase inhibitors.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/3711333/

In addition, it seems that most of the studies that demonstrated detrimental effects from tobacco or nicotine were in-vitro, yet the effects of nicotine/tobacco seem to be the opposite in-vivo, at least in amounts that would constitute smoking a few cigarettes a day. Perhaps most importantly, nicotine seems to be able to strongly blunt the systemic inflammatory effects of endotoxin/LPS, including in humans. Assuming endotoxin/LPS is the main driver of many/most chronic diseases, the anti-estrogenic and anti-endotoxin effects of nicotine (and some other tobacco ingredients) may explain its cumulative effects on promoting longevity, despite the known and undisputed carcinogenic effects of the actual smoke from the burning tobacco.

https://channel.ersnet.org/media-52743-converse-airway-effects-of-nicotine-iin-vitroi-and-iin-vivoi

https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/immunology/articles/10.3389/fimmu.2022.826889/full

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17177960/

“…Because a prototypical ligand for this receptor is nicotine, we studied the in vivo human response to bacterial endotoxin or lipopolysaccharide (LPS) in the context of nicotine or placebo pretreatment. Twelve adult male normal subjects were studied prospectively. Six received overnight transcutaneous nicotine administration by application of a standard patch (7 mg). Six hours later, all subjects were given an intravenous dose of endotoxin (2 ng/kg) and were evaluated for an additional 24 h for circulating levels of inflammatory biomarkers, vital signs and symptoms. The nicotine subjects had elevated blood levels of the nicotine metabolite, continine, prior to and throughout the 24-h post-endotoxin exposure phase. Subjects receiving nicotine exhibited a significantly lower temperature response as well as attenuated cardiovascular responses for 2.5-6 h after LPS exposure. In addition, increased circulating interkeukin (IL)-10 and cortisol levels were also noted in nicotine subjects. These data indicate an alteration in LPS-induced systemic inflammatory responses in normal subjects exposed to transcutaneous nicotine. In this model of abbreviated inflammation, nicotine exposure attenuates the febrile response to LPS and promotes a more prominent anti-inflammatory phenotype.”

Interestingly enough, one of most renowned healers in the Amazonian region – the birthplace of tobacco – used tobacco almost exclusively to heal almost any disease known to man. A key fact to note in his work was that all the tobacco-based remedies he used were used orally and/or topically, but never through smoking.

https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/pharmacology/articles/10.3389/fphar.2020.594591/full

“…Harmful usage of tobacco is a public health problem of global concern and, in many countries, the main risk factor for non-communicable diseases. Yet, in the Peruvian Amazon, the geographical region believed to be tobacco’s historical birthplace, this plant is associated with a strikingly different usage and repute: Tobacco (especially Nicotiana rustica L.) in this area is described as a potent medicinal plant, used topically or via ingestion to treat a variety of health conditions. The goal of this transdisciplinary field study was to investigate clinical applications of the tobacco plant as per Amazonian medicine exemplified in the practice of a reputed Maestro Tabaquero, an Amazonian traditional healer whose medical specialization focuses on tobacco-based treatments…The current study described Amazonian therapeutic uses of tobacco (N. rustica L.) in the practice of a Maestro Tabaquero, an accomplished Amazonian healer specializing in tobacco-based treatments. The informant’s descriptions revealed refined knowledge on the plant’s therapeutic scope and properties, safety profile, and application techniques. A liquid remedy taken orally was his most commonly used preparation, with reported acute/sub-acute effects involving a pronounced psychoactive component (altered state of consciousness) and physiological response (emesis, intoxication, Spanish: “mareación”). A skilled tabaquero that knows how to diagnose, dose, administer, and intervene in case of adverse effects was described as imperative for safe treatment delivery; tobacco ingestion otherwise may be dangerous. The main indications mentioned by the informant included problems of the mind, of the respiratory system, parasitic illnesses (intestinal/skin), gout, and Amazonian epistemic conditions described as spiritual-energetic in nature.”

And last, but not least, smoking has been shown to inhibit (mostly) MAO-B, which of course results in higher dopamine levels. This pro-dopamine effect of smoking may be the reason for the known lower risk of Parkinson Disease (PD) in smokers and other users of tobacco products. Furthermore, the MAO-B inhibitor selegiline (Deprenyl) is one of the few proven anti-aging agents in humans, and is known to be used by various celebrities, politicians and other social elites for lifespan extension and retarding aging. This effect of smoking/tobacco may be a major reason behind any potential life-extending effects seen in smoking super-centenarians.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16177026/

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36051642/

https://doi.org/10.1371/journal.pone.0007959

So, maybe that’s the main message here – unmodified tobacco may be indeed a highly beneficial natural remedy, with the benefits present mostly in using the plant through means that do not produce carcinogenic byproducts (e.g. smoking). However, even when smoked it seems that tobacco may still be a good “doctor” (see medical student with UC story above), despite doctors uniformly condemning tobacco/smoking as one of the biggest evils of the modern lifestyle. I wonder how many of the harms of even smoking are due not so much to the undeniably carcinogenic smoke, but to the toxic additives present in the vast majority of commercially sold cigarettes/cigars. The toxic ammonia and the carcinogenic flame retardants that are now mandated in commercial tobacco products by law may very well turn out to be a much bigger villain than the humble leaf from Amazonia.

 

[SMM]

Can homeopathic tobacco at a potency that's best for someone be used in the place of tobacco or e-cig smoking?

 

[3DStudent]

I guess this could go in the Dental Health thread, but as it pertains more to cigarettes I wanted to discuss tongue bite, which I've had persistently the past few weeks. I had to go to the reddit boards on pipe tobacco, as it's more prevalent with pipes.

I've had to be careful to not eat too much hot food (or even overly cold water), not brushing my tongue as much, and stopping smoking, but it seems to not go away. I'm on day 5 since a cigarette now and when I eat some textured food (gluten free carby stuff) or when I brush my teeth it will make my tongue sore again. Reddit says that aloe vera juice or honey can help. Along with Biotene but it has junk ingredients. Also avoiding acids (I've been using hot sauce sometimes) and putting milk/cream in your coffee/tea (I use coconut milk).

Specific to tobacco, obviously smoking slower and more lightly. And even point the cigarette down so it draws up more on your top palate versus your tongue. And it was for pipe tobacco but I think this applies to RYO cigarette tobacco: to smoke it drier. I use organic American Spirit, which is very harsh. And if it's on the wet side it's not so bad, but when it's drier there is less hot steam produced, and it burns faster so you don't need to draw as long. As relief I think you could swish DMSO in your mouth, but I'd think you'd want to swish colloidal silver first so it gets the bacteria out of your mouth.

Anyways, just wondering if you've had experience with tongue bite and how long it takes to recover? (over a week?). And maybe what might help other than what I listed. Maybe I just have a sensitive tongue, because as I said, even a couple days without smoking and when I eat or brush my teeth, my tongue gets a little sensitive and has that burned feeling. Thanks for reading.

 

[palestine]

I must say I have zero interest in vaping myself, even if I did get used to it I just really like the ritual of rolling a smoke and the smelly stink of tobacco.

Same here - I roll enormous cigarettes and I am thinking of starting smoking pipe. But the concept of not inhaling is so that I would keep cigarettes.

I would like to start pipe smoking, because of the calming aspect and the positive feature of doing something >[...]< Well I cannot find the word. It could be "honoring time, calm and perennity".

Is there any way for smoking pipe and inhaling?

 

[nicklebleu]

Is there any way for smoking pipe and inhaling?

I don’t know about pipe smoking, but when I smoke a cigar (which you are also not supposed to inhale) I do inhale nevertheless. Haven’t really noticed any difference, a bit harsher sure, but some RYO tobaccos are similar in that respect.

I think you need to do your own experiment, I guess it’s a personal thing. After all, the tobacco is the same, maybe processed differently. So just try and see how you go.

 

[palestine]

I don’t know about pipe smoking, but when I smoke a cigar (which you are also not supposed to inhale) I do inhale nevertheless. Haven’t really noticed any difference, a bit harsher sure, but some RYO tobaccos are similar in that respect.

I think you need to do your own experiment, I guess it’s a personal thing. After all, the tobacco is the same, maybe processed differently. So just try and see how you go.

Hello,

Thank you.
This is what I planned to do. I believe that I have some unconscious rebuttal - but that I would secretely try. I am sure it will be as you say with the cigar.

I once bought some cigars at one of those specialized shops. I had a discussion with the seller who was very affable. And I guess that during the conversation, I told him how I was inhaling the smoke. He suddenly turned very alarmed, and immediately went on to tell me that it would be dangerous, etc. He really meant good, this was striking. But my own experimentation has shown me that, as you state, I did not see much difference than with cigarettes.

Buying a pipe is quite expensive, I am checking in second hand shops if I can find one, but all I found out were odd models, very used. A new one costs around 45$ and it's an investment.

 

[Ricardo]

Not inhaling ? wtf , if you pardon mon European , as in pretend smoking ? anyways , usually cigars and pipes are not filtered so there are additional considerations on their impact , ie smoke a big enough cigar and (some) people do feel a physical impact as i recall it's from the additional particulates getting absorbed into the bloodstream, a compromise between either would be cigarillos , which are not rolled with paper thus potentially less toxic albeit more expensive ofc , these days i had roll fwiiw . don't recall C's directly commenting on it however.

 

[Nienna]

Is there any way for smoking pipe and inhaling?

I smoke a pipe and I inhale. So, yes, it can be done.

 

[EmeraldR]

not smoking per se but involving nasal spray administration of nicotine-

I bought a 10ml 100% VG. based nicotine in a shot measure quantity( 18mg nicotine per ml)

based on quantities used in a nicorette nasal spay dispensor which was 10ml containing 10mg per ml I diluted the vg shot solution with 10ml of purified water and put it in a nasal spray applicator(easily obtained) - so used a stronger nicotine dosage(18mg/ml than the nicorette nasal spray. A small quirt did the job -quite an intense kick initially -butit certainly clears the head of any brain fog or congestion in nasal passages and increases alertness/focus etc . I reckon one squirt is probably delivering nearly double the ammount of the nicorette stuff (0.5mg per squirt).
as its via the nasal route the quantitiy of nicotine needed is certainly alot less than the lungs vaping approach!

 

[Jo Bugman]

Same here - I roll enormous cigarettes and I am thinking of starting smoking pipe. But the concept of not inhaling is so that I would keep cigarettes.

I would like to start pipe smoking, because of the calming aspect and the positive feature of doing something >[...]< Well I cannot find the word. It could be "honoring time, calm and perennity".

Is there any way for smoking pipe and inhaling?

I smoked a pipe for years (and inhaled). My only complaint was having to keep the pipe clean, since I did not use a filter, and having to light it in the wind. The tar buildup would get bad if I didn't clean it at least once a week.

I dropped the pipe a few months ago and switched to vaping. I spent the first two weeks of no pipe smoking coughing up tar-mucus and I notice I breath easier now. Maybe it was the tobacco I used or the lack of a filter, I'm not sure, but I did prefer pipe over cigs because I could control how long I wanted to smoke and there was no cig butt to dispose of afterwards.

 

[Josi]

I guess this could go in the Dental Health thread, but as it pertains more to cigarettes I wanted to discuss tongue bite, which I've had persistently the past few weeks. I had to go to the reddit boards on pipe tobacco, as it's more prevalent with pipes.

I've had to be careful to not eat too much hot food (or even overly cold water), not brushing my tongue as much, and stopping smoking, but it seems to not go away. I'm on day 5 since a cigarette now and when I eat some textured food (gluten free carby stuff) or when I brush my teeth it will make my tongue sore again. Reddit says that aloe vera juice or honey can help. Along with Biotene but it has junk ingredients. Also avoiding acids (I've been using hot sauce sometimes) and putting milk/cream in your coffee/tea (I use coconut milk).

Specific to tobacco, obviously smoking slower and more lightly. And even point the cigarette down so it draws up more on your top palate versus your tongue. And it was for pipe tobacco but I think this applies to RYO cigarette tobacco: to smoke it drier. I use organic American Spirit, which is very harsh. And if it's on the wet side it's not so bad, but when it's drier there is less hot steam produced, and it burns faster so you don't need to draw as long. As relief I think you could swish DMSO in your mouth, but I'd think you'd want to swish colloidal silver first so it gets the bacteria out of your mouth.

Anyways, just wondering if you've had experience with tongue bite and how long it takes to recover? (over a week?). And maybe what might help other than what I listed. Maybe I just have a sensitive tongue, because as I said, even a couple days without smoking and when I eat or brush my teeth, my tongue gets a little sensitive and has that burned feeling. Thanks for reading.

Hi 3DStudent,

Perhaps look into Burning Mouth Syndrome. For you, I hope not, but may apply.

"Burning mouth syndrome symptoms include: a burning or scalding sensation primarily on the tongue (but can affect the lips, gums, roof of mouth, or entire mouth), a feeling of dry mouth, altered taste like bitterness or metallic flavor, tingling, stinging, or numbness in the mouth, and sometimes a sensation of a "crawling" feeling in the mouth; the pain can feel constant or come and go throughout the day, often worsening in the evening.

Key points about burning mouth syndrome symptoms:

• Primary symptom: A burning sensation in the mouth, often described as feeling like a burn from hot food.
  
  
• • Affected areas: Most commonly the tongue, but can also include the lips, gums, roof of the mouth, or entire mouth.
    
  • Taste changes: A bitter or metallic taste perception.
    
  • Other sensations: Tingling, numbness, or a "crawling" feeling.
    
  • Pain pattern: Can be constant or intermittent, often worsening throughout the day. "

 

[3DStudent]

Is there any way for smoking pipe and inhaling?

I haven't used a pipe for years but I would inhale when smoking them. I just used RYO cigarette tobacco. It seems the key is getting enough volume of smoke on the draw and then inhaling it. So you want to make sure it's not too hot. There's a technique where you put two fingers over the bowl to make the intake smaller and get more smoke volume.

Perhaps look into Burning Mouth Syndrome.

Thanks for that, I had no idea that was a thing. I randomly get metallic tastes in my mouth every so often. So maybe it's aggravating it. I will hold off a little longer and see if more time helps. I swished with some colloidal silver today thinking maybe it's also a bacteria or biofilm thing going on. I think I'll change my nightguard out as well.

 

[daddycat]

not brushing my tongue as much

I would stop brushing tongue completely until tongue is fully recovered.

Have you tried using mouthwash Periobrite?

 

[palestine]

Hello to all,

Thank you for your kind replies.

Not inhaling ? wtf , if you pardon mon European , as in pretend smoking ?

Yes you are right, let's re-focus

(some) people do feel a physical impact

The only difference could be this. And more nicotine?

I am happy than to have been reading positive feedbacks. I was expecting this but I was not sure. Thank you, it encourages me to start pipe smoking:

I smoke a pipe and I inhale. So, yes, it can be done.

I smoked a pipe for years (and inhaled)

I haven't used a pipe for years but I would inhale when smoking them

It seems the key is getting enough volume of smoke on the draw and then inhaling it. So you want to make sure it's not too hot. There's a technique where you put two fingers over the bowl to make the intake smaller and get more smoke volume.

Great idea! Thank you for the tip!

because I could control how long I wanted to smoke

Thank you, I believe this is what I am looking for.

I would stop brushing tongue completely until tongue is fully recovered.

There could be some validity in brushing the tongue; my experience is that it is too destructive. I would, for example, brush my tongue with/without toothpaste but I can definitely see that I am kind of ruining a delicate stuff there. But it could be of use. Good luck.