Smoking is... good?

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Anti-smoking vaccine


Headlines -

Anti-smoking vaccine could soon be available

Smokers could soon have access to an injectable vaccine to help them break the habit following a deal between GlaxoSmithKline and Nabi Pharmaceuticals, the company that developed the drug.

The vaccine is injected and works by creating anti-bodies that bind to nicotine molecules, preventing them from passing the blood into the brain

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/6588349/Anti-smoking-vaccine-could-soon-be-available.html
 
From Tobacco to Tabasco: Nightshade foods and human health

The following article contains some interesting information about nightshade plants and how they affect the body.
The most interesting thing for me to find out was that nightshade plant leaves contain a lot of nicotine.

_http://www.craigsams.com/pages/tobac.html

From Tobacco to Tabasco

Nightshade foods and human health

An information sheet from NOMATO - the world's only tomato-free range of sauces and ready meals. Fully organic, too.

In the diet of Europe and Asia only one nightshade food was eaten until recent times: the aubergine or eggplant. Other nightshades such as henbane, thorn apple (datura stramonium), belladonna and mandrake were well known but their use was restricted to specific medical applications (sedative, anesthetic or poison) or in witchcraft.


Then, in the 1600s and 1700s food and drug crops based on nightshades were imported from the Americas and for the past 400 years have penetrated and become ubiquitous in the Western diet. These include tobacco, tomatoes, potatoes and chili peppers. It is not surprising that these novel foods, being nightshades, were regarded with suspicion at first and were slow to take hold in the European diet. They all contain solanine in some form, named as solanine (potatoes), tomatine (tomatoes), alpha-solanine (aubergine) or solanadine (chillies and capsicums). They also contain nicotine in small amounts. Nicotine has a synergistic action with solanine--it stimulates the production of acetylcholine.


It is now apparent that there are groups of people who cannot tolerate nightshades in their diets, wish to avoid them anyway or find that eliminating them helps alleviate a variety of mental, emotional and physical problems. The following groups of people avoid nightshades.


1. PEOPLE WITH ARTHRITIS - Some researchers believe that arthritis is misdiagnosed in people who are in fact just suffering joint aches and swelling arising from consumption of nightshades. One in three arthritics react badly to nightshades. These individuals frequently have a sensitivity to the solanine chemicals present in these foods. It can take up to six months of exclusion of nightshades from the diet to achieve a beneficial effect. Lupus and Still’s disease are also associated with tomato consumption.


2. MACROBIOTICS - since the 1960s, the macrobiotic diet has recommended avoidance of all nightshades. This proven diet for health and longevity is followed by celebrities such as Sadie Frost, Gwyneth Paltrow, Chris Martin of Coldplay and Madonna.


3. CHILDREN WITH ECZEMA – for some children the elimination of nightshades from the diet helps clear eczema, particularly around the mouth.


4. GASTRO ESOPHOGAL REFLUX DISEASE – consumption of nightshade vegetables, particularly tomatoes, can causes a reaction where the stomach contents are pushed back up the esophagus towards the throat with symptoms of heartburn, chest pain, choking while lying down and asthma symptoms when sleeping.


5. THOSE QUITTING SMOKING – some programmes to help people give up cigarettes also recommend giving up nightshade foods in order to completely eliminate low level nicotine intake and consequent re-addiction.


6. BLOOD GROUP DIET – Dr. Peter d’Adamo’s Blood Type Diet recommends people of blood types A and B to avoid all nightshade foods. This represents about half the population of most European countries.


7. CYSTITIS, LUPUS, PSORIASIS– giving up nightshades can help relieve symptoms of cystitis, lupus and psoriasis.

What are the Nightshade foods? How do they differ from each other? What are their origins?

TOBACCO
- The most powerful source of the nicotine alkaloid found in all nightshades became a popular drug in the early part of the 1900s, when mass produced cigarettes made them available to the expanding urban societies. Although the nicotine content of tobacco is much higher than that found in nightshade vegetables which are eaten, the practise of smoking reduces the amount of nicotine absorbed. The nicotine in a single cigarette, if taken direct into the bloodstream, would be fatal. Eating a single cigarette could cause severe illness. There are several instances of livestock poisoning where cattle or sheep have eaten nightshade plant leaves.


TOMATOES
- Tomatoes were first brought to Europe from Mexico by Cortez and were first cultivated for food in Naples. The English regarded them as poisonous until the 1700s. They were introduced in America as an ornamental garden plant in 1808, but were not eaten as they were believed to cause stomach cancer and appendicitis. The botanical name for tomatoes ‘Lycopersicon’ means ‘wolf peach’ and refers to the association between werewolves, witchcraft and nightshades. Then, in 1820, Colonel Robert Johnson defied the advice of his physicians (“You will foam and froth at the mouth and double over”) and ate tomatoes on the steps of Salem Courthouse, New Jersey, in front of a crowd of 2000 witnesses, the local sheriff waiting to arrest him for suicide. He survived and people began slowly to accept tomatoes as food. In the US and Northern Europe they really took off as food with the introduction of canning and canned soups and then rose again with the expansion of consumption of pizza and pasta in the past 30 years.


POTATOES
- Potatoes were elevated in status when the celebrated Parmentier produced a galaxy of delicious potato recipes in 1785 to help relieve famine in Paris. Potatoes were cheap food for the masses - a peasant or worker could be fed from a quarter as much land if they ate potatoes instead of grain. Nonetheless, the French Revolution took place 4 years later. The Paris Commune declared potatoes ‘Revolutionary food’ while English landlords made them compulsory on their Irish estates.
- Traditionally potatoes were kept in paper sacks and sold unwashed. This practice protected them from direct sunlight. The modern practice of washing potatoes and packing them in plastic bags allows light to affect the potato and stimulate its production of solanine, the nightshade alkaloid that, in nature, sickens animals that might dig up potatoes for food. In 1976 the Department of Health, concerned about high levels of anencephaly and spina bifida, urged pregnant mothers to wear rubber gloves when preparing potatoes and to discard in their entirety any potatoes that showed signs of greening or of blight (black streaks in the potato) It is not enough to simply remove the discoloured part - the entire potato should not be eaten. The solanine in potatoes is 4 times greater in the skin than in the rest of the potato. The fatal dose of solanine for an adult is 200-250 mg depending on body weight. Potatoes should not contain more than 20 mg of solanine per 100g, so it would take at least 1 Kg of potatoes (2.2 lbs) to be fatal. Potato peels have been found to contain up to 180 mg of solanine per 100g, so a person consuming 150-200g of deep fried potato peels with a high solanine content could be at considerable risk. Potatoes that have been properly stored and are from low solanine varieties will only contain 7 mg/100g. In 1996 the Committee on Toxicity stated that potatoes should not be eaten if they still taste bitter after the green parts and sprouts have been removed. However, few people taste-test a raw potato once it is peeled to assess its bitterness. Although spina bifida prevention now focuses on preconceptual consumption of folic acid, the world’s highest incidence of spina bifida is in Ireland, where the wet climate encourages late potato blight. A study in Belfast showed that mothers who had given birth to a child with spina bifida or anencephaly could reduce the risk of a similar defect in the second child by 50% if they maintained a potato-free diet.


PEPPERS AND CAPSICUMS
- Peppers and capsicums were rare in the Western diet until the 1980s, when they became widely available as fresh vegetables and, in their hotter forms, in Asian cuisine and as hot sauce. Chillis replaced peppercorns in Indian cuisine from the 1650s onwards, after Portuguese traders brought plants and seeds from Brazil. Hot peppers are rich in capsaicin, which creates a burning sensation that affects pain receptor cells and causes them to release endorphins, the body’s natural opiate-like painkillers, that create a temporary feeling of euphoria. Peppers and capsicums also contain solanine and solanadine, the nicotine compounds that are unique to nightshade plants.


AUBERGINES
- Aubergines or eggplants most resemble in appearance the belladonna nightshade plant that may be their wild ancestor.


So what is solanine, the active alkaloid in nightshades? What are its effects? Solanine acts as an acetylcholinesterase inhibitor.

WHAT ARE ACETYLCHOLINESTERASE INHIBITORS?


• The chemical that transmits nerve impulses from one nerve ending to the next is acetylcholine - once it has transmitted a nerve impulse it has done its job and is no longer needed so it is broken down by an enzyme called acetylcholinesterase and recycled.
• Solanine (or tomatine from tomatoes) slows the production of this acetylcholinesterase, so acetylcholine isn't broken down as fast as it's being produced.
• Acetylcholine builds up causing a 'traffic jam' of stimulation at the receptor nerve endings.
• The nerve endings become overstimulated
• This overstimulation can lead to muscle weakness, muscle twitching, hypertension, increased intestinal contractions and increased secretions of tear, sweat, saliva, gastric and intestinal glands.
• All nightshade foods contain solanine, a strong acetylcholinesterase inhibitor. This is what makes excessive consumption of nightshade foods unsuitable for many people.


Certain pesticides, particularly organophosphate and carbamates, work as acetylcholinesterase inhibitors, achieving the same effect as solanine.


For a diet that seeks to maintain a strong and healthy nervous and neuromuscular system there is considerable evidence that the safest approach is to avoid nightshade vegetables and to eat food that is grown without the use of carbamate or organophosphate pesticides, i.e. organic food. Before the discovery of chemical pesticides, nicotine was a widely used insecticide. It kills insects in the same way, but chemical sprays are cheaper and longer-lasting. Until they were replaced by hormones and antibiotics, organophosphate pesticides were also used by livestock farmers as growth-promoters - the mechanism whereby they cause muscle weakness and increase secretions of digestive fluids also causes animals to exercise less and eat more, thereby fattening them up more quickly.


WHY DO PEOPLE LOVE NIGHTSHADES?


What is it that makes tobacco so addictive? Why is it that sometimes only chips will do, or we are gagging for a pizza? Solanine, by inhibiting the breakdown of acetylcholine, stimulates increased activity of the acetylcholine receptors in the brain and this leads to increased flow of adrenaline. This increases the heart rate, blood pressure and leads to increased blood glucose levels. This mild increase in energy level is achieved, along with a reduced nervous sensitivity; producing a combination of calmness and stimulation. This provides short term relief in the face of the stresses and pressures of modern life. In the longer term it puts a strain on the nervous system as the receptors are being overstimulated.


WHY DON'T WE EAT TOBACCO?


The leaves of all nightshades contain high levels of nicotine. One could, at a pinch, smoke potato or tomato leaves. A potent insecticide can be made with tomato leaves. The levels of nicotine in the leaves of nightshade plants are much higher than in nightshade fruits or tubers. 8-10 cigarettes, if eaten, would be enough to kill a person. First time smokers experience dreadful nausea but gradually develop a resistance to the effects of nicotine and this is how addiction develops – more and more is needed to satisfy the craving.

WHY ARE NIGHTSHADES LEGAL?

If the nightshade foods were to be introduced to the Western diet today, under current Novel Foods regulations they would have to be tested for safety. It is unlikely that they would be permitted to enter the food supply, solely because of their solanine and nicotine content. However, like cigarettes, they slipped into our diet despite some voices in opposition and have assumed a major role in our nutrition and health, a role that, in a free society, should be accepted. However, moderation in all things is a worthy principle and it could be argued that, in our diet we have perhaps gone too far down the road of nightshade acceptance.
Nomato products enable all consumers, not just those with particular problems with tomatoes, an opportunity to enjoy foods like ketchup, pasta sauce, tomato soup, vegetarian chilli and baked beans without exposing themselves to solanine alkaloids or trace levels of nicotine found in tomatoes and other nightshades.
 
Re: From Tobacco to Tabasco: Nightshade foods and human health

Hmm interesting. I, as a matter of fact, just put some nightshade spices on some quinoa to test my reaction and reintroduce them. I used black pepper, paprika, curry, and chili powder. They made my nose run and I got phlegm. It also seemed like I had a mild headache. So I guess nightshades, at least the pepper family, are still going to be left out of my diet.
 
Re: From Tobacco to Tabasco: Nightshade foods and human health

That's funny...I didn't develop a real taste for spicey stuff until I started smoking! Good article, Domi.
I wouldn't be surprised if there were more plants that naturally contain nicotine. :cool2:
 
relationship with tobacco

I'm not sure exactly where this thread should go so please relocate if necessary.

I wanted to say something about tobacco. Tobacco is, for Native Americans, a medicine plant, very specifically used for prayer and to increase awareness.

I have used tobacco in that context for years. That said, I was taught to take that medicine very seriously, in that what can be positive can also be negative.
So, recently, in light of the very interesting material around tobacco I've read here, I've been experimenting a bit. What I have been doing is rolling myself one cigarette a day with good tobacco and smoking about 3 or 4 times a day. It certainly does still have the same effect of increasing awareness and I usually don't need more than four good inhalations to achieve that. Now I have also tried smoking filtered cigarettes and I have noticed I can smoke several in a row and never achieve that sort of clarity. What about filters, are they filtering out the essential components necessary?

Also I am very careful to avoid addiction. So, I am very respectful, careful with tobacco. I limit myself and smoke to a purpose I suppose. What are the thoughts regarding addiction? I, personally, avoid being addicted to anything, not wanting any substance to have that kind of control over me. Periodic fasting, another feature of my culture, helps to develop the will in this regard. The ability to control ones appetites so to speak being integral to our idea of being a human being. Having right relationship with tobacco, which was given to the people specifically for spiritual development, as well as food and even water is something we undertake from early adulthood.

What is the relationship with tobacco in regards the work of strengthening the will and it's use to increase awareness as experienced by those out there engaged in this work?
 
Re: relationship with tobacco

What is the relationship with tobacco in regards the work of strengthening the will and it's use to increase awareness as experienced by those out there engaged in this work?

A bit of a co-incedence, my friend. I was just reading about nicotine and aceytlcholine online.
Please read the statement of principles, there is a section about smoking in there.
Also see the smoking thread in "diet and health" section.

As for an immediate answer, we believe that using nicotine habitually assists an individual to think better. Research has shown that nicotine increases aceytlcholine in the brain, a vital nuerotransmitter. It also increases metabolism, allowing for greater food intake, hopefully organic vegetables! ;D

As for addiction, many people quit all the time without going crazy. I myself could never quit. :rolleyes:
 
Re: From Tobacco to Tabasco: Nightshade foods and human health

WHY DO PEOPLE LOVE NIGHTSHADES?


What is it that makes tobacco so addictive? Why is it that sometimes only chips will do, or we are gagging for a pizza? Solanine, by inhibiting the breakdown of acetylcholine, stimulates increased activity of the acetylcholine receptors in the brain and this leads to increased flow of adrenaline. This increases the heart rate, blood pressure and leads to increased blood glucose levels. This mild increase in energy level is achieved, along with a reduced nervous sensitivity; producing a combination of calmness and stimulation. This provides short term relief in the face of the stresses and pressures of modern life. In the longer term it puts a strain on the nervous system as the receptors are being overstimulated.

I was JUST wondering to myself how I can find the TASTE of other vegetables so much better (like peas and carrots), but I always WANT potatoes.
 
Re: relationship with tobacco

I've recently started smoking, sort of due to environment as I started working in a restaurant (how else are you supposed to get smoke breaks :) and interest along the lines of "shaman" meaning one who smokes tobacco (awareness increasing, acetylcholine receptor multiplication etc.) . I roll my own of Natural American Spirit Organics and I find them of superior quality, even than their additive free brand.

I'm not new to tobacco use, I've smoked off and one since adolescence and don't seem to be particularly addictable, ie I have "quit" smoking for years at a time, from smoking a pack a day. I think good non-industrial-poison tobacco makes a big difference. I also prefer filterless hand-rolled cigarettes. Ideally, I'd like to transition to clipping my own tobacco, if not growing my own (DC area is prime tobacco country...), which is of course closer to the real deal in imbuing something with meaning. My girlfriend is fairly opposed, minimally from a health dictocrat perspective, but mostly from breath, smell perspective so we'll see how that plays out (I'm sympathetic, she has never smoked and is miserable when she tries, not genetically predisposed).

I've looked at the tobacco threads, but didn't see a consensus on what "habitual use" means. I remember from a C's transcript that it was appropriate for Laura to smoke 15-20 a day, which seems kind of impossible to me. 1 or 2 rollies is about all I can fit in physically and practically. Is their some idea of body signs, mental clarity that's a tell that you're using enough nicotine to build up enough acetylcholine receptor sites?
 
Re: relationship with tobacco

Kila said:
So, recently, in light of the very interesting material around tobacco I've read here, I've been experimenting a bit. What I have been doing is rolling myself one cigarette a day with good tobacco and smoking about 3 or 4 times a day. It certainly does still have the same effect of increasing awareness and I usually don't need more than four good inhalations to achieve that. Now I have also tried smoking filtered cigarettes and I have noticed I can smoke several in a row and never achieve that sort of clarity. What about filters, are they filtering out the essential components necessary?

I recently started smoking about 6 months ago, having had maybe a handful of cigarettes in my life prior to this. I smoke from a wooden tobacco pipe in the evenings after my supper as a relaxation ritual of sorts. I don't do this every day, some days I forget or an tied up with other things. Anyways, I haven't felt the slightest urge to smoke beyond this. I could leave tobacco tomorrow and it wouldn't phase me.

The pipe that I use has no filter in it. I also smoke American Spirit filtered cigarettes on occasion, usually if I'm out on the town or meeting friends in the evening. It is just more convenient in some situations than bringing the pipe with the pouch. That said, I have noticed a difference between smoking the filtered cigarettes versus the pipe tobacco. This is just my subjective impression, but it feels like one bowl full of pipe tobacco is about the equivalent of half a pack of filtered cigarettes. I can easily put away a pack of cigarettes in a couple of nights out, whereas I need very little pipe tobacco to achieve the same "fullness" it seems.

I haven't tried rolling my own cigarettes, but perhaps this will be on the agenda now.
 
Re: relationship with tobacco

abstract said:
A bit of a co-incedence, my friend. I was just reading about nicotine and aceytlcholine online.
Please read the statement of principles, there is a section about smoking in there.
Also see the smoking thread in "diet and health" section.

Here's a link to the thread that you mentioned http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=84.0 It's a rather lenthy thread, but well worth the read.

kila said:
Also I am very careful to avoid addiction. So, I am very respectful, careful with tobacco. I limit myself and smoke to a purpose I suppose. What are the thoughts regarding addiction? I, personally, avoid being addicted to anything, not wanting any substance to have that kind of control over me

I rarely smoke more than two or three cigarettes in a day, usually during the evening to just relax a bit, but on the weekends when I have gigs I smoke a lot. Usually 5-7 in a night in-between set lists and after the show. If I smoke too much, I can feel it. Last night I played a show and when I was driving home, I was gonna light one up and as soon as it touched my lips, I felt nausea, which was my bodies way of telling me "nope, your done for the day". That's because I smoked too many (for me) in a short period of time, which I SHOULD know better ... But other than gig nights, I act responsible with smoking and don't have any particular urges to smoke or anything like that.
 
Re: relationship with tobacco

Kila said:
Also I am very careful to avoid addiction. So, I am very respectful, careful with tobacco. I limit myself and smoke to a purpose I suppose. What are the thoughts regarding addiction?

There is a lot of nonsense spread about the addictive qualities of tobacco, including the idea that it is more addictive than heroin. How many smokers go through cold sweats, physical pain, screaming while rolling on the floor while stopping smoking? Smoking is 'addictive' in that it becomes a habit associated with getting up in the morning, a cup of coffee, having a drink, socializing. It is those patterns of use that are hard to get out of. At least that is how I have come to understand it.


I, personally, avoid being addicted to anything, not wanting any substance to have that kind of control over me. Periodic fasting, another feature of my culture, helps to develop the will in this regard. The ability to control ones appetites so to speak being integral to our idea of being a human being. Having right relationship with tobacco, which was given to the people specifically for spiritual development, as well as food and even water is something we undertake from early adulthood.

What is the relationship with tobacco in regards the work of strengthening the will and it's use to increase awareness as experienced by those out there engaged in this work?

Some people seem to need the nicotine to stimulate their thinking. Is it the tobacco controlling us, or is it listening to the body?

Smoking can relieve stress.

I have stopped smoking several times during my life, often for years at a time. It was also relatively easy to do. I just decided to stop. But then I have not smoked industrial cigarettes for well over thirty years. I roll my own. There may be chemicals added to industrial cigarettes and the paper that is harmful and/or addictive.

In short, I would say what is important when it comes to tobacco is to know yourself and listen to your body.
 
Re: relationship with tobacco

I've looked at the tobacco threads, but didn't see a consensus on what "habitual use" means. I remember from a C's transcript that it was appropriate for Laura to smoke 15-20 a day, which seems kind of impossible to me. 1 or 2 rollies is about all I can fit in physically and practically. Is their some idea of body signs, mental clarity that's a tell that you're using enough nicotine to build up enough acetylcholine receptor sites?

You are correct, there is no consensus on "habitual use." I myself am a pack-a-day smoker. I'm not sure if they were specifically referring to laura's smoking in that transcript...maybe they were, idk. If 1 or 2 hand rolled cigs a day is good for you, then why push it? some days I get kinda annoyed that i "need" so many cigarettes over a certain period of time, but that is what my body tells me.

Everyone's body chemistry is different. I read that some individuals may be GABA (nuerotransmitter) dominant, while others can be dopomine dominant. Different people react differently to different chemicals. Some people don't use nicotine ever in their lives, some people smoke here and there, and people like myself do a pack a day.
Although this is quite obvious, i'm not attempting to insult your intelligence. My short answer is listen to your body, although it's probably more complicated as such.
 
Re: relationship with tobacco

Kila Wrote:
Now I have also tried smoking filtered cigarettes and I have noticed I can smoke several in a row and never achieve that sort of clarity. What about filters, are they filtering out the essential components necessary?

I think it is that they are actually adding something. Take one of your [natural tobacco?] rolled cigarettes, light it and light a "[brand name?] filtered cigarette" and let them burn side by side. The additives in the brand name [Camel, Marlboro..] smoke will usually burn all the way to the filter much faster, while the other might actually go out well before reaching the filter, without some puffing, but certainly burn longer.

This is the list of 599 additives in cigarettes http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_additives_in_cigarettes

If we compare that to some fertile soil, tobacco seeds, sunlight and water, your tobacco (imagining your buying, growing or cultivating all natural) 'smokes' the competition (pun intended). :)
 
Re: relationship with tobacco

If we compare that to some fertile soil, tobacco seeds, sunlight and water, your tobacco (imagining your buying, growing or cultivating all natural) 'smokes' the competition (pun intended).

This has me quite interested now (thanks to whom started this thread, kila) in getting some real motha#$$% natural tobacco because it seems that it's really that much better.

It certainly does still have the same effect of increasing awareness and I usually don't need more than four good inhalations to achieve that. Now I have also tried smoking filtered cigarettes and I have noticed I can smoke several in a row and never achieve that sort of clarity

That remark especially made me wonder if I should switch over to whatever you are using, it's obviously some good stuff, right? :)
May I ask what you are smoking, specifically, kila?
 
Re: relationship with tobacco

How very interesting this thread is..

Thank you Abstract I have read the material around acytlcholine that is what got me thinking based on the traditional use I am familiar with. Essentially, the way we are taught to use tobacco makes sense based on the chemistry, to increase awareness and of course whenever something of significance must be discussed in counsel the pipe will be passed several times.

As to addiction, I agree that the fear mongering is mostly nonsense..heroin...give me a break. If I had to liken it to something I would liken tobacco to coffee. If I don't have my cup in the morning I miss it emotionally and I'm likely to get a headache which can be pretty miserable. Still several times a year I will fast and so before as I'm preparing to do that I will first stop drinking coffee then tobacco, then of course food and sometimes water. This is really about self mastery, developing the will as opposed to gaining health benefits, although I believe there are health benefits. So I guess what I am saying is while tobacco is certainly not heroin, I would rather not be dependent on any substance for basic functioning.

That said, I too have smoked on and off for years and haven't had any problem quitting or smoking again after months or even years.

I, too see a huge difference in the quality of the tobacco and filtered tobacco, just because only recently have I smoked filtered cigarettes.
One nice fat hand rolled cig can last me all day easily. That said I can be standing with friends and smoke several filtered cigs is a row. I could not smoke that much either hand rolled or in my pipe. I have a small red clay pipe bowl and one bowl will last me all day. But I like hand rolling them now.
I'm wondering if the C's told Laura 15 -20 because it was specific to the filtered cigarettes she was smoking and she didnt' ask about any other method? Just curious.
My husband used to be a pack a day man of Marlboro's(sometimes two packs if he was stressed), after he started hand rolling now he smokes 5-7 cigarettes a day and he says it feels equivalent. It's all he wants.

I buy a can of loose American Spirit, I've tried the organic loose and I don't notice much of a difference between the all natural and organic. All natural doesn't have those 500 additives but it was sprayed with herbicides not doubt so organic is probably better, but geez...sometimes I gotta just make do.
Now I have people up North in OK who grow their own and also supply us with ceremonial tobacco and let me tell you that stuff is REALLY strong stuff. it's really nice though. I think if you grew your own you could try different varieties..you know like wine. Of that old strong variety probably one cig is equal to a pack :/ :cool2:
 

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