Stalking, Intent and the Energy of Alignment

[Corvus]

That obviously depends on how we define external considering, though. Whatever it is that you are calling external considering is not what we mean when we're using the term in a Work context. Your statement above seems to miss the whole point of Laura's opening post.

In a extreme situation you do not look what is best for both but for yourself only because other side wants worst for you and tramp you so you want worst for them and you re internally considering, being selfish in that regards, because it is a matter of existence, that is what I meant, then there s no need for external consideration or you could call internal external or whatever definition or word you want which does not matter in the end how you call it.

The point is, the more pathological our environment is, the more we need to be externally considerate in order to forge ourselves into something that is capable of operating in such an environment. Don Juan's attributes of warriorship: Control, Discipline, Timing, Forebearance and Will are the very things we need to develop in ourselves and we develop them through external considering - figuring out how to interact with other people (whether they're tyrannical or not) in the way that will work out best for us and best for them. What you say below is perfectly compatible with an 'existence of long duration in an extreme and pathological environment', essential for it, actually.

One is words and preaching to the choir, other is practice that is much more difficult to do. These kind of words are being spread all the time, but it does not do much in reality.

Another way of saying this is that the reason why the world is in such a mess is because people are afraid to do anything about it from fear, ignorance, selfishness. Not very warrior-like; only considering inner-ly, not externally.

In some people those qualities that are positive are maybe internal and maybe not everyone is driven by fear and cowardice inside.

But I was only going to be seeing her for four days. Now maybe if for some reason I'd found myself in the situation of having to live with her, I might act differently, but instead of risking offending her by cutting her off, getting up and walking off, telling her I don't have time to talk, and then being stuck in a house with a frosty atmosphere, I sat there, patiently listening, trying my best not to allow my mind to wander off and dissociate (because that's the effect she would have), sip my drink, smoke cigarettes, and practice discipline, forbearance, etc.

It is really a trivial case, but maybe if you told her she was boring and energy sucking vampire then there would be silence and it would last only one not four days.

 

[Starshine]

It is really a trivial case, but maybe if you told her she was boring and energy sucking vampire then there would be silence and it would last only one not four days

Well, I don't think that's external considering then, that will hurt the person more than needed, you may have remorses for being that harsh for such a 'trivial' passing-by of an old friend of your mum known since childhood and who might not be ready to take it. Why not just wait for 4 days and it's all over?
The "Energy-sucking vampire" insult is a tough one, I would hardly tell that to anyone, I don't see how helpful that is. One can also think of all the others who will be drained when she'll talk about it, plus the altered relationship it will bring with your mum.

Also saying it is trivial make it sound like it has no importance when in fact it is a good illustration of a concept always linked to a specific context, I don't see much external considering here either.

Maybe an example of an extreme situation would help?

 

[goyacobol]

These kind of words are being spread all the time, but it does not do much in reality.

I don't hear these words in the usual everyday situation. If you mean our use of these concepts here then, yes we are talking about external consideration in many threads.

Maybe an example of an extreme situation would help?

I agree with Starshine that maybe an example from your own experience would help us understand why it may be necessary to use internal consideration.

 

[monotonic]

In a extreme situation you do not look what is best for both but for yourself only because other side wants worst for you and tramp you so you want worst for them and you re internally considering, being selfish in that regards, because it is a matter of existence, that is what I meant, then there s no need for external consideration or you could call internal external or whatever definition or word you want which does not matter in the end how you call it.

To say that one can't defend one's existence in an externally considerate way is to say that our existence cannot be good for others or ourselves, as if we have no right to exist. This line of logic leaves us with selfish force as the only means to exist in a world in which we are immoral trespassers.

 

[Cosmos]

In a extreme situation you do not look what is best for both but for yourself only because other side wants worst for you and tramp you so you want worst for them and you re internally considering, being selfish in that regards, because it is a matter of existence, that is what I meant, then there s no need for external consideration or you could call internal external or whatever definition or word you want which does not matter in the end how you call it.

Well, the implementation of external consideration sort of excludes a state in which circumstances "where there is no need for external consideration" exist. The more you try to put external consideration in action, the more you realize that something in you (you could maybe call it the higher self) revolts against actions that are not external considerate. So to approach things in a way "that sometimes external consideration doesn't matter" is rather counterproductive and not what the state of being/action of external consideration consist of.

These kind of words are being spread all the time, but it does not do much in reality.

How so? Why would words like "attributes of warriorship: Control, Discipline, Timing, Forebearance and Will" "does not do much on reality"?
If you mean that you have to put the words into action, then yes of course that is what needs to be done, since that is the whole idea/practice behind external consideration.

 

[Corvus]

Well, I don't think that's external considering then, that will hurt the person more than needed, you may have remorses for being that harsh for such a 'trivial' passing-by of an old friend of your mum known since childhood and who might not be ready to take it. Why not just wait for 4 days and it's all over?

We live in a harsh world, and when you take into account what happens in a real world, it is not harsh at all, more of her being a spoiled brat, and do not you think her sucking of your energy is "harsh", because she does it in a polite and masked matter does not makes it something other then it is. It seems she will have to suck it up. And at first it was 4 days but maybe she will like it, probably she will because she gets free sucking, then she will come for more and more. Looking like that what sott.net and other similar sites do is not externally considerate, and who is also creator of that term, guy that was impostor and manipulator and was not applying it.

If you mean our use of these concepts here then, yes we are talking about external consideration in many threads.

And you using these concepts does not do the dime when it comes to reality, if you use them here that does not mean you apply them, you make it sound like it is reality.

Maybe an example of an extreme situation would help?

Like living in gang infested ghetto area and a war time, maybe also living like Palestinian in Gaza and in extreme poverty.

I agree with Starshine that maybe an example from your own experience would help us understand why it may be necessary to use internal consideration.

She did not ask for my own experience and what makes you think I want to give you any example.

To say that one can't defend one's existence in an externally considerate way is to say that our existence cannot be good for others or ourselves, as if we have no right to exist. This line of logic leaves us with selfish force as the only means to exist in a world in which we are immoral trespassers

Maybe main logic being it is not that simple in reality then on paper, but nothing is. You see in more eastern cultures Those who talk much are those that know the least.

 

[monotonic]

Sott.net is externally considerate in the sense that it is not forcing people to read it. People can click away at any time, and they do.

We live in a harsh world, and when you take into account what happens in a real world, it is not harsh at all, more of her being a spoiled brat, and do not you think her sucking of your energy is "harsh", because she does it in a polite and masked matter does not makes it something other then it is. It seems she will have to suck it up. And at first it was 4 days but maybe she will like it, probably she will because she gets free sucking, then she will come for more and more. Looking like that what sott.net and other similar sites do is not externally considerate, and who is also creator of that term, guy that was impostor and manipulator and was not applying it.

Your read on this trivial situation given as a short example is cynical to the extreme, and your proposed solution is a huge overreaction. "Energy sucking vampire spoiled brat" is a HUGE stretch considering the information we were given. For all we know all that was needed was a short talk to explain to her the situation in a gentle way. Such an enormous overreaction would likely have the opposite effect; it would reinforce her insecurities and make her more stubborn and jaded. How do you weigh that against the cost of being bored for 4 days?

T.C.'s strategy to simply bear the situation is the one you would choose if you knew this person would not be willing to consider any criticism; this is something T.C. would know about more than any of us. Even so, there is a risk of trying to engage such a person for a positive result, and T.C.'s solution displays the principle of "first do no harm".

 

[Turgon]

And I am not talking from air but from my experience because most people are really poor bunch, psychologically, emotionally and physically and want to drain you or control you even if they do not see it like that and say they act to benefit you.

Then you've missed the point. If you had been practicing real external consideration, and not so concerned about these harsh judgements about other people and how most everyone is a poor bunch, psychologically, emotionally and physically, then you'd understand that if you practice external consideration with most people (not petty tyrants), which really means you are stalking your own inner-predator in terms of awareness, choice and actions, it has the potential of bringing out the best in yourself and by and large, other people seem to acknowledge and respond to that in kind, even if they themselves aren't aware of it. I've been amazed at what I see from people, who just moments before would bring out the worst in me, only for me to pause, consider and think about my thoughts and actions and strive to find the right course to take, only to see that person change right before my eyes. Or rather it was my perspective and attitude towards them that changed which allowed a shift in dynamics.

It is really a trivial case, but maybe if you told her she was boring and energy sucking vampire then there would be silence and it would last only one not four days.

So when I read something like this as being your response to T.C.'s mum's friend, what that tells me is no wonder you have such a view of other people. If you had been in his situation and had said that to her, maybe in the short term you'd experience some immediate gratification for 'speaking your mind', escaping the situation and sticking it to that 'energy vampire', but in the long run you wouldn't have accomplished anything worthwhile except shore up your own cynical beliefs about other people being a poor bunch, psychologically, emotionally and physically.

 

[goyacobol]

She did not ask for my own experience and what makes you think I want to give you any example.

I just thought it might make the conversation more real but I don't expect you to share anything you don't feel comfortable sharing. We all have painful experiences we would rather not talk about unless we trust the listener.

Maybe main logic being it is not that simple in reality then on paper, but nothing is. You see in more eastern cultures Those who talk much are those that know the least.

I agree that many times we (myself included) are just armchair warriors/intetlectuals who maybe haven't experienced the atrocities we talk about and give advice about.

Looking like that what sott.net and other similar sites do is not externally considerate, and who is also creator of that term, guy that was impostor and manipulator and was not applying it.

I am little surprised you think that SOTT is not externally considerate since it is not an individual entity but a group effort. A news source that contains many sources I think has to be somewhat neutral rather than an individual or person would be (maybe not perfect but better than most I think).

who is also creator of that term, guy that was impostor and manipulator and was not applying it

If you mean External Considering there are some definitions in the Casswiki External vs. internal considering

This is a concept of the Fourth Way based on the writings of George Ivanovitch Gurdjieff in the first half of the 20th century. P. D. Ouspensky, a contemporary and student of Gurdjieff, has brought many aspects of the teaching to a condensed form in his book In Search of the Miraculous.

Maybe if you look at the discussion after thinking more about the original concepts it would make more sense why some of us are seeing things differently.

 

[Beau]

It is really a trivial case, but maybe if you told her she was boring and energy sucking vampire then there would be silence and it would last only one not four days.

I don't think you understand a thing about being considerate and trying to be compassionate towards people. Instead of being cruel to people and identifying/expressing negative emotions, maybe some people actually want to understand WHY they feel the way they do when interacting with people, not express selfish negative emotions, and attempt to behave in a way that leaves the other person happy to have talked to them. I wonder whether anyone has experienced that feeling after talking to you.

 

[Chu]

She did not ask for my own experience and what makes you think I want to give you any example.

The answer to this is, ironically, an aspect of External Consideration. People are obviously noticing here that you have no real clue about what external consideration is, yet they were trying to understand first where you were coming from, instead of assuming things. That is part of being considerate, as opposed to the type of "solution" and analysis about people that you offered. Yet, you act defensive. You cannot have a rational conversation like that. Also, that is how we work here very often. We ask for examples and clarifications when needed, so that there is more data to discuss, instead of mere speculation.

 

[Laura]

Corvus, the only thing you can take out of this world with you when you go is the love you have given to others. If you are a person who is like you have described in this thread, you are definitely not someone I want watching my back because I'll always be wondering if you are sharpening the knife to stab me.

If there is one thing we have learned from living and working in a network/community it is that patience and understanding and knowing where the other person is coming from count for a lot. That amounts to acquiring a great knowledge of other people, who they are, where they've been, what they have suffered, and to not step on their fingers in case the weird way they are acting is really them hanging on by their fingernails.

 

[Deleted member 4320]

Looking like that what sott.net and other similar sites do is not externally considerate, and who is also creator of that term, guy that was impostor and manipulator and was not applying it.

I am suprised by your words.

sott.net IS externally considerate, because in opposition to many other sites is not strictly grounded in one religion, party or other ideology to impose it on others. When you have many other sites on the net they often clearly represent certain point of view and try to show it as the one correct, which in the same imply that other's view is mistaken. Sott mostly collects information bits and make it availably for all interested. This is big difference.

External consideration contains the two main ideas (at least how I understand this conception):
- we should perceive our life from the "bird's eye view", so to speak,
- while we are perceive us from outside, we should act for the best possible outcome for us and others
an example:

There is some problematic situation in your group of friends, let say that you should prepared a car for a trip. But you fail, you gave your car to the mechanic to do important repair, but you didn't do this in proper time, you was lazy and you were delaying with this, to the point that time for repair exceeded and you do not have a car for the trip.
If you are internally considerate you meet your friends and may say something like: "This is not my fault. I didn't have time. Why always everything is on my head?!" etc. People are disappointed and and have a grudge.

If you are exernally considerate you go outside yourself. See the situation from the bird's eye and you see yourself and others from perspective. Well you see that you and others really want to have time together and search for possible exit from the difficult situation with benefit for all. You are saying: "Okay, sorry, I didn't do what I commited to do. I am sorry, it shouldn't happen, I have proposition for you, just rent a car go for a trip, it would be more expensive for us, but as I failed, I pay for two persons, you share the rest between you.
If they are real friends, very possibly, they accept such idea.

What in the extreme situation? Let say that one of your "friend" is know that he is very agressive and crazy. When you will go for meeting he probably start some quarrel and melee and finish will be that you or some of your friend call for the police and you or crazy friend or both end in the hospital or maybe something worse even heppend.
How to be external considerate? You exit yourself, look at this situation from the above and think about it. If you go there you make your crazy friend angry and you end at the hospital, your friend at the police station, and generally no one go for a trip. You do not want such finish. So, in the last moment you say that you spoofed your ankle. Your crazy friend think: "What a stupid idiot, how he can did it!? What a failure..."
You stay at home, your friends finally find way to go for a trip and you start thinking that maybe you should find some new friends?

 

[Corvus]

I don't think you understand a thing about being considerate and trying to be compassionate towards people. Instead of being cruel to people and identifying/expressing negative emotions, maybe some people actually want to understand WHY they feel the way they do when interacting with people, not express selfish negative emotions, and attempt to behave in a way that leaves the other person happy to have talked to them. I wonder whether anyone has experienced that feeling after talking to you.

Ehh, now you know my whole history don t you, and to be frank and answer your last question many experienced it, probably more then you have ever given, the problem being few ever reciprocated it, and are like someone said back stabbers.

I've been amazed at what I see from people, who just moments before would bring out the worst in me, only for me to pause, consider and think about my thoughts and actions and strive to find the right course to take, only to see that person change right before my eyes. Or rather it was my perspective and attitude towards them that changed which allowed a shift in dynamics.

There is truth in your words.

For all we know all that was needed was a short talk to explain to her the situation in a gentle way.

You do not, that is the point. You do not know if that would work, it depends on the person.

Maybe if you look at the discussion after thinking more about the original concepts it would make more sense why some of us are seeing things differently.

If someone understands the concept it does not mean he always agrees with that approach.

I am little surprised you think that SOTT is not externally considerate since it is not an individual entity but a group effort. A news source that contains many sources I think has to be somewhat neutral rather than an individual or person would be (maybe not perfect but better than most I think).

I meant it more like people that are not informed being offended by basic stuff, so it could be seen as not being considerate but it does not stop telling the truth even if people get offended and it attracts their ire.

 

[Corvus]

If you are a person who is like you have described in this thread, you are definitely not someone I want watching my back because I'll always be wondering if you are sharpening the knife to stab me.

And what kind of person is that? You managed to know me?