Stalking, Intent and the Energy of Alignment

beetlemaniac

Dagobah Resident
FOTCM Member
And what kind of person is that? You managed to know me?
Hi Corvus :-),

Imagine this forum and all it's participants as a ship, with Laura at it's helm. We are all responsible for what we say and the way we behave when we do our work on this ship. We all have our past grievances and hurts which we do need to work on every day of our lives. The work on this ship is, primarily, not of a kind that you can really see in a physical sense, i.e., like sweeping the deck, casting the sails or manning the observation tower. I found the following on a website talking about a seafaring career and the various responsibilities of the crew onboard a ship:



Seafaring is not just a career, it’s a lifestyle. Captains, mates, and ship pilots spend their days on the water on vessels of all sizes, on inland lakes and rivers, as well as the open sea.

The captain is responsible for every aspect of the voyage and vessel. They set course and speed, direct crew members, and ensure that proper procedures are followed, keeping logs and records of the ship’s movements and cargo, and supervising the loading and unloading of cargo and passengers.

Mates are the captain’s “right hand.” They manage and train the deck crew, inspect and maintain inventory of equipment, and order needed repairs. They stand watch, oversee ship operations, and navigation when the captain is not on duty. Pilots are responsible for steering ships in and out of berths, through hazardous conditions, and boat traffic. They motor out from harbor as a ship approaches, then climb aboard to take charge and safely berth the ship.

Life aboard ship requires that one must be in good physical condition to tolerate the extremes of weather and irregular hours, and to be ready to respond to unexpected danger. Captains and ship pilots are expected to have vocational training or an associate’s degree, while mates often have a high school diploma. All require experience onboard ships. Licensing by the Coast Guard is required for work on ships registered in the U.S. If you can’t resist the call of the sea, you might set sail for a nautical career.
Please bear with me on this, it will only take a little bit of time for me to elaborate on this analogy.

You can see the parallels of the work on this forum with the work of a ship's crew. The work here involves something more intangible, though. We work on ourselves. So, what counts is your being, more than your doing. In fact, your being will enhance what you do in your life. How to improve being though? How to not compromise the work we do on this ship that Laura and the crew has so lovingly, painstakingly tended to for all these years?

That's not an easy question to answer, as each individual has their own issues to deal with. I want to help you see, Corvus, that when we treat others with an understanding of their position in life, to the extent that we're able, we heal a part of ourselves which then provides us a power over ourselves, to be able to move on in life by opening up new possibilities through seeing that there are more options available to us in our interactions then we previously did. Life will become an adventure for you, and you will feel more and more a part of the crew. Work on ourselves and we gain more for ourselves, and to share with others. The initial reaction that you get from feeling like others are wasting your time can be transformed into a desire to know, and to understand, "Where is this person coming from, and what are their hurts and suffering?"

It's not easy to think that way in a dog-eat-dog world, not easy at all, in fact, the climate we live in has made it almost impossible to externally consider. However, I came here first to seek knowledge and subsequently, I felt that some kind of power would accrue to me as a result of that. In hindsight, I was not necessarily wrong in my thinking. However, the crucial thing that was missing was, for an STO candidate to progress, karmic lessons have to be learned. The situations that we repeatedly find ourselves in, due to past hurts are not there "just because," they are there for us to learn. If you are ready and willing to see that in your own interactions with others, and to maybe share just a teensy-weensy little bit about what you're going through in your own life, then we'd have a better understanding and we could then help each other to move on - to propel this ship even further along the course.

You're an invaluable part of our struggle here to build a new world. You can see more than you ever imagined but only if you gave us a little more to go on by so that we could understand a little bit about what you're going through.

You don't have to if you don't want to put in the effort, though. It's totally up to you. However, the danger is that you may find yourself "stuck in the "past"," and possibly not becoming part of the "reality of the "future" ". :hug2:
 

goyacobol

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
And you using these concepts does not do the dime when it comes to reality, if you use them here that does not mean you apply them, you make it sound like it is reality.
Corvus,

I didn't reply to the above comment earlier but for me applying external consideration has been very much a reality. Knowing when to say something and when not to say something can be very useful to both the speaker and the listener. I could actually give a real example but in your case, that shouldn't be necessary.

We live in a harsh world, and when you take into account what happens in a real world, it is not harsh at all, more of her being a spoiled brat, and do not you think her sucking of your energy is "harsh", because she does it in a polite and masked matter does not makes it something other then it is. It seems she will have to suck it up. And at first it was 4 days but maybe she will like it, probably she will because she gets free sucking, then she will come for more and more. Looking like that what sott.net and other similar sites do is not externally considerate, and who is also creator of that term, guy that was impostor and manipulator and was not applying it.
Re-reading the post above I realized you were saying that SOTT is sometimes painfully honest and truthful and that is why you felt like being honest and calling an energy vampire/brat by their name was appropriate. Why not, SOTT does it? Well, I suppose in some cases your idea could be appropriate and might even do the person well. Your sentence left out some words that made it difficult to get the meaning like "Looking like that" should be "Looking at it like that".

Maybe others didn't have that problem with the grammar or missing words. Anyway, there is another concept of Gurdjieff's writing that I think might not have been mentioned with external consideration and that is "Strategic Enclosure" since it is actually the framework for Internal and External Consideration.

In general, I think your approach would probably cause more harm than good and attract attack from the General Law but it is just an opinion.
 

T.C.

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
And what kind of person is that? You managed to know me?
Actually, Corvus - yes. To some extent, anyway.

You see, I'm not even that active on the forum, but you have stood out to me in the past as being, how can I put it, not one to shy away from confrontation. And that's being kind.

So when I read your initial response in this post and felt that you weren't using the term 'external considering' in the way that most other people here were using it, I saw an opportunity to perform a 'scratch test'.

Gurdjieff coined the term. It's when an opportunity arises to potentially show someone an aspect of themselves that, if they have a certain aim, they might be grateful for being shown. That it's not so easy to determine someone's character when you're being nice to them, but 'how might they react if you scratch them a little?'

I was fairly confident that the way I opened my response to you would be read by someone with an open mind who is actively seeking self-knowledge as being worded in quite a neutral way. But to someone primed for confrontation, it would be read as an attack. At the very least, it would not be appreciated.

The point being here, look how easy you are to manipulate, Corvus. Look how automatic your responses are - look how predictable you are.

How prepared are you for life in an extreme and pathological environment when you bite the hands of people who would be quite committed to teaming up with you and helping you in any and every possible way that they could?

All of us here care about each other, and if our life experiences have lead us to a view that we have to just look out for number one and put ourselves first and damn everyone else, then that is not unexpected! Life is hard.

But there are other ways to go through life, and being considerate of others is something that we all here value very highly.

Now, you have an opportunity. Your anger makes you easily manipulated. This is why the predator gave us their mind, and this is how 4D STS forces act through us to make the world a terrible place.

Could you see that? Could you see that you have an opportunity to really see yourself and take a step back and realise that you are running programmes? That maybe you could stop and think about the way you interact with others, on the off chance that you might be able to act in ways that were more beneficial to others? That you might be able to 'change for the better'.

Do you think you need to change at all?
 

luc

Ambassador
Ambassador
FOTCM Member
Ehh, now you know my whole history don t you, and to be frank and answer your last question many experienced it, probably more then you have ever given, the problem being few ever reciprocated it, and are like someone said back stabbers.
You do not, that is the point. You do not know if that would work, it depends on the person.
Corvus, if your default assumption is that other people are backstabbers, out to get you etc., you will miss all the richness, nuances, learning experiences and growth in understanding that make up the human experience. How we try to approach things here is as simple as it is difficult: giving people the benefit of the doubt, always, and trying to understand their unique experience by getting a handle on our own stuff. This basically means looking inside first to see whether *I* am the problem here and seeing what *I* can do to make the situation better and communicate in a better, deeper, more understanding and more meaningful way. And if you are afraid that this makes you a "doormat" or the victim of some "vampire": yes, it means that we can't just decide to go the easy way to "save energy", but instead have to be ready to make an effort, even if it sometimes turns out this effort was in vain in the sense that the other person really turns out to be a "vampire". But it was not in vain because we practiced external considering and got a better understanding of ourselves and life in general. Indeed, this in turn will help us make better decisions about where to spend our energy and with whom to get involved. So yes, it ain't easy, there are risks involved, you can be disappointed, it's subtle, it requires effort - like everything worthwhile in life.
 

Aiming

The Living Force
HThe situations that we repeatedly find ourselves in, due to past hurts are not there "just because," they are there for us to learn. If you are ready and willing to see that in your own interactions with others, and to maybe share just a teensy-weensy little bit about what you're going through in your own life, then we'd have a better understanding and we could then help each other to move on - to propel this ship even further along the course.

You're an invaluable part of our struggle here to build a new world. You can see more than you ever imagined but only if you gave us a little more to go on by so that we could understand a little bit about what you're going through.
I agree with the above. When I was reading your replies in this thread and your view of other people reflected therein, I was wondering:
1) exactly what have you been experiencing for you to be so angry, and 2) what exactly was it that made you take on such a cynical attitude towards others? Does it really reflect reality? Does it help others and does it help yourself? And in how far is this cynical attitude exactly what 4D sts would relish, not to mention even aim to achieve: turn off the lights and let any faith and sense of purpose be extinguished - so why even try?

From your reactions here it looks to me as if the point of your comments is not really about the concept of external considering, but rather about a cynical viewpoint you've taken on, which makes you and other people around you suffer even more - even if that hasn't been your intention. It's quite easy to fall into this trap, I think many of us have been there; yet it makes life only harder.

Back to the concept of external considering: I concur with others, since I've also experienced how applying the concept DOES help others and myself. Sure, it does depend on the context of the situation at hand and it needs constant practice, as with everything. If something doesn't work, you try it differently next time around. None of this is theoretical wiseacring without substance, but from what you've written here, it does seem that you have a different understanding of what external considering means.

And none of this is an attack on you, but once you're emotionally triggered, it will feel that way and will seem very real, when in reality, it's a distorted perception - as can be seen from the way you reacted to Laura's post. Something has pushed your triggers, but is it really the concept of external considering, or what exactly is it that has been coming up for you in dealing with this topic? So, how about calming down, sitting back and reflecting on what's been said here? What do you have you to lose? And what is there to learn?
 

genero81

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
And if you are afraid that this makes you a "doormat" or the victim of some "vampire": yes, it means that we can't just decide to go the easy way to "save energy", but instead have to be ready to make an effort, even if it sometimes turns out this effort was in vain in the sense that the other person really turns out to be a "vampire". But it was not in vain because we practiced external considering and got a better understanding of ourselves and life in general. Indeed, this in turn will help us make better decisions about where to spend our energy and with whom to get involved. So yes, it ain't easy, there are risks involved, you can be disappointed, it's subtle, it requires effort - like everything worthwhile in life.
Yes, spot on luc. I've had my struggles and from what I've learned the main trap was the attempt to deny vulnerability. There has to be some risk taking. If one becomes too protective of the self, the end result is too much self concern and self absorption. It's like trying to cheat the learning process by playing it safe, but it doesn't work. That doesn't mean that you can't go into situations with your eyes open armed with knowledge and side step the more obvious traps, but we can't see all. Better to give the benefit of the doubt when uncertain. And if we get bit? We learn from it and move on. I'm not sure it's possible to find the people you do want to have in your life without leaving yourself at least a little open and vulnerable.
 

Turgon

Ambassador
Ambassador
FOTCM Member
I randomly came across this quote in the Tao Te Ching today and thought it might apply.

22. YIELDING TO MAINTAIN INTEGRITY

Yield, and maintain integrity.
To bend is to be upright;
to be empty is to be full.

Those who have little have much to gain,
but those who have much may be confused by possessions.

The wise man embraces the all encompassing;
he is unaware of himself, and so has brilliance;
not defending himself, he gains distinction;
not seeking fame, he receives recognition;
not making false claims, he does not falter;
and not being quarrelsome, is in conflict with no one.

This is why it was said by the sages of old,
"Yield, and maintain integrity; be whole, and all things come to you".
 

fabric

Ambassador
Ambassador
FOTCM Member
In a extreme situation you do not look what is best for both but for yourself only because other side wants worst for you and tramp you so you want worst for them and you re internally considering, being selfish in that regards, because it is a matter of existence, that is what I meant, then there s no need for external consideration or you could call internal external or whatever definition or word you want which does not matter in the end how you call it.
It still seems like you are conflating ‘external consideration’ and ‘being nice’(although you said yourself that a distinction should be made). They are not the same thing (as has been mentioned). It can include ‘being nice’ at times but it doesn’t necessarily have to. There could very well be situations where telling the person they are “an energy sucking vampire” would be the externally considerate thing to do. The point is, it is not always apparent when a course of action leads to maintaining good relations or is just you being taken advantage of and what would be the appropriate response.

For some reason you think that external consideration only works in ‘normal times’ and is not of any value in an extreme or pathological environment. That’s not case, and I would say it even more necessary than when in normal times. In "matters of existence" what is more likely to get you "dead" is internal consideration vs proper use of external consideration. Narrowing down every interaction into a them vs you scenario limits your choices and actually puts you at a disadvantage.

When it comes to survival in extreme situations, the practical value of incorporating such things as stalking, discipline, external consideration etc, now in your daily life as much as possible will leave you better prepared to deal with them when they arise. They are things which are very much grounded in one's ability to read reality and to dismiss them as simply a 'concept' that doesn't 'work' is to essentially ignore reality.

FWIW
 

luc

Ambassador
Ambassador
FOTCM Member
Just wanted to stretch again how incredibly important it is to listen to people. You want people to like you and treat you well? There is no method more effective than asking serious questions, listening with serious intent, and proving it by asking intelligent follow-up questions and summarizing what you just heard in your own words. I love it when other people do that with me, and I know others love it too, so this is a great gift you can give to people and the world. It is also incredibly difficult, self-absorbed as we humans tend to be.

And this is why I think T.C. handled the situation so well. Sure, this woman might have been inconsiderate herself, might have talked about uninteresting stuff and got on his nerves a bit. But instead of taking the moral high ground and self-righteously "teaching her a lesson", he saw it as an opportunity to practice listening with intent. And what better way to practice it than when it's extra hard? If he can truly listen to this woman for hours, he can do it in almost any situation. At the end, everyone won: the woman felt great, T.C. honed his skills. And this seems to be the warrior's spirit: you don't try to make life easier for yourself all the time, but instead accept the challenge and even embrace it, because it allows you to hone your skills and grow.
 

Voyageur

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
To mark a particular occasion, read from October 15th's The Daily Stoic - it's kind of a good reminder, OSIT.

"Everything turns on your assumptions about it, and that's on you.
You can pluck out the hasty judgements at will, and like steering a
ship around the point, you will find calm seas, fair weather and a safe port."

- Marcus Aurelius.

Without quoting the whole of the authors review of this meditation from Marcus, it concerns what the virtuous person might make of situations.

"...A virtuous person does not jump to hasty judgements about other people. A virtuous person is generous with assumptions: that something was an accident, that someone didn't know, that it won't happen again. This makes life easier to bear and makes us more tolerant. Meanwhile, assuming malice-the most hasty of judgements-makes everything harder to bear..."

I've been trying to make a go with being around people who make many assumptions, and I without immunity (working to have better recognition of it), while also working to better sit with people and listen (which is what luc was discussing), making it easier on both and at the same time seeing if there is opportunity to expand the exchange; and maybe you just can't.

Like many, though, getting triggered these days is simple (just turn on the news), and yet being triggered around certain people (which can't be avoided when close when certain subject matters come up) calls to looking for "calm seas" if possible, and this is not a make nice program. In this respect, and as can be seen today in politics and a somewhat distorted society, it is constant work to check ones assumptions or see the conflicts in the other (or self) for what they are and work with it.
 

beetlemaniac

Dagobah Resident
FOTCM Member
There are more examples that could be set out, but perhaps some of you have real life ones?
I'd like to just give a little bit about my own experience with the "petty tyrants" that I've found at my job.

Petty Tyrant 1
This man has been a source of a lot of interesting and useful lessons. He's a smoker too. He has been with the company since the days where its founder was still around and running the show. He's an old timer and a benevolent man, who has dedicated his life to the company. It's hard to call him a petty tyrant though, because he can be so nice and understanding at times, but at other times he can fall into bad moods, where his temper just flares up. That's how he's been dealing with incompetence and difficulties with staff, though he has considerably mellowed down since I joined the company. The thing about the work culture here is that there is a whole lot of compassion for the staff, and the policy is never to fire anyone, but to give them a chance to prove themselves, and possibly to restrain them via financial means if things go out of hand. I suppose this way of operating has its pros and cons. You can have people who are just freeloaders who get by with the least amount of work and effort but it gives people space to find their way and build on their strengths, however long it takes. The company really works in a way similar to family, with strong patriarchal and matriarchal types taking care of the day-to-day operations.

This man has been very patient with me in a lot of respects. To call him a petty tyrant is somewhat undeserving, but the way my interactions went with him did make me see many things that were problematic. The issue is that I'm not entirely innocent of guilt for being an enabler and a miniature petty tyrant myself. He's a become a sort of god-like character because of his contribution to the company, and essentially out of my own uncritical mind I've taken up those characteristics myself. I guess it was a symbiotic relationship where we both learnt from each other. I was his authoritarian follower and his word was the final one. There's nothing else to explain, I think. He was a big father figure in my life but now his influence seems to be slowly dissipating as I learn to navigate on my own, and the fact that the hierarchy of power is changing in the company, with two more "normal" people promoted to manager status directly below him. Both of these men are especially forgiving and kind. There seems to be not much pressure put on to a lot of the staff to perform, only a few seem to be capable of taking responsibility for things that are of significance. Getting out of the office and working at the construction site (however there is a newer petty tyrant associated with this job) has allowed some space from the energy dynamics in the office which I've found incredibly dulling and incapacitating. I think this man just takes on too much responsibility as well.

Petty Tyrant 2
This person is a European man from Switzerland with a penchant for being somewhat demanding but with me, he is usually quite kind and forgiving. Lacking in a sense of self had me again running my authoritarian follower programs, and him being a foreigner, and a European, I've looked up to him with a kind of awe. I learnt a whole lot working with him as well. I fell into the role of driver and "caretaker" when we were at the construction site, ferrying him from the hotel, going for lunch, etc. I'm a little bit resentful of these duties now but I know it's unreasonable to be that way. I think the main lesson with him was of learning autonomy. I'm learning to focus more on my job duties and responsibilities with him and minimizing the things that are ancillary. I think that would mean finding ways for me to be more useful on the job and learning more about this field of work, regardless of what my perceived interests or callings are.

Petty Tyrant 3
This man is one of the sons of the company's founder and I worked with him for a spate on a project that he was trying to get off the ground. It was a difficult time for me because I had the main job of coordination between various parties within and external to the company. He's mainly guided by his feelings about things though he is an intelligent guy. The pettiness manifests probably in maybe being in a position of entitlement to the company and it's resources so he was a bit demanding. I guess I can find his situation reflected in my own with regards to my family, the currents of entitlement run through my life as well, since my siblings and myself were very well provided for by our parents, materially speaking. Wealth is a corrupting influence, especially for one who is not mature and knowledgeable enough to use it wisely. I figure that donating to the group is a good way to give a little bit to people who do.

It seemed that the universe had selected exactly the right types of people for me to learn at my pace, which admittedly is rather (frustratingly) slow. These men have not been terrible petty tyrants. They were people who seemed to just be somewhat unbalanced in a certain direction. They were/are very good role models for my level, and as such, the universe has provided. However, I'm keen on pushing myself further because in this case - I can see that I am the limiting factor here.

In a lot of respects I find that I'm just attracted to the pain and suffering of other people and the karmic influences of the environment. It seems that my primary duty is really to relieve the suffering of others. However I've been trying to do it through action which seems woefully inefficient considering the amount of suffering that is around me. That's why I think that also developing the mind and emotions would further help myself and others to progress along this journey called life. I need my mind in working order to be able to properly shoulder my responsibilities in all aspects of my life. So the Work goes on.
 
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